Attacking the Guard

[Kung Fu Wang]

At 1.04, he uses downward parry on his opponent's left arm, his opponent can borrow his force, spins his left arm, and hook punches back at his head. This is why I always suggest, downward parry (or hook punch) should be followed with a wrist grab.

 

[windwalker099]

A static demo showing a particular movement . I’m sure if anything you suggested was done the movement would change. .

 

[marvin8]

In this screenshot the target is not the face it's the guard, which is why neither of the jabs try to penetrate beyond the guard. The Guard is the Target.

This doesn't matter in terms of the technique. I can show you examples of where the front foot was planted, and people still get hit with this. To me, what you are saying is that a jab is different because a person is moving backwards and not staying still.

Rojo's target is the face not the guard. Stepping forward to the left with the left jab feint causes Galavan to move backwards and downward parry (position). This allows Rojo to land the overhand right to the face. Galavan's reaction prevents him from blocking Rojo's overhand and/or countering.

https://imgur.com/vU7or5p

A Jab is a Jab regardless of what my opponent's footwork is, or how I enter with a jab. If I move right and jab it's still a jab, if I step forward with a jab, it's still a jab. If I stand still and jab, it's still a jab.

When you get hit with it, you get hit with it.

Timing and position matters. Your drill video shows striking the jab, then countering with the overhand to the face. The overhand starts when the opponent's front foot is planted and in a position to move or counter.

https://imgur.com/6d9dZHr

There is a difference in timing and position between...

1. Your drill video: Go no sen — After the attack. Strike the jab and counter.
2. Rojo fight: Sen sen no sen — Take initiative. Attack before the attack.

 

[Holmejr]

Am aware and have seen live demos of it in use long ago...
Thinking the group was under Angel Cabales, a famous instructor at the time..
could be wrong

They did a stepping drill, called the triangle,
if memory serves me.... quite interesting.

Not something I found interesting at the time,
could appreciate its complexities, and usage..

Angel Cabales art is called Serrada. It’s compact and very linear in its nature. They use very short weapons to start out with. This is but one of a 100 FMA styles. Some are like Serrada and some are long range like Giron’s Bahala Na. They hit the stick for demo, but the hit is to the hand,wrist or arm. Moving a bit closer and it’s knife or open hand. Of course Bahala Na is a multi range fighting system.

Our FMA, Eskrido de Alcuizar has its own style also. It includes combat judo and boxing. I’m always tempted to post video, but out of respect to my instructor I don’t.

 

[marvin8]

These movements seem pretty extreme with a couple of these movements actually throwing the “hitter” off balance. In FMA, since we work with angles of attack, that technique would be met quite aggressively to the inside which is our desire or if it passed to the outside, which is okay too. Also in many forms of FMA they have what they call “defang the snake” which is an outside technique where the defender meets the incoming slash at the hand/wrist or arm. Your attack on the hand/arm would be similar to a blade attack following the same line, accept the blade moves much faster than the open hand. I would consider this technique dangerous if fighting a seasoned fighter. On the streets against an unsuspecting emotional perp, it might work, especially if you don’t show your cards to soon. I think they used to call these “heymakers”.

In Rojo vs Marshall, Marshall moves inside Rojo's overhand, half steps and KOs Rojo with the lead hook.

https://imgur.com/N1Ehao9

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A static demo showing a particular movement . I’m sure if anything you suggested was done the movement would change.

I can only comment what I have seen in that video.

To borrow my opponent's punch (or parry), spin the arm, and punch back has been part of my DNA. Sometimes, I don't even need to borrow my opponent's force, I only need to borrow my opponent's intention.

I always train downward parry followed with upward arm wrap. If I don't grab my opponent's wrist, I'm ready for his hook punch to my head.

 

[windwalker099]

I only need to borrow my opponent's intention.

Don't look at videos of "demos" as actual events. Being a "demo," they are not live in the sense that participants can change them as you've suggested. Understanding the intended target, path, and trajectory of the attack is crucial to the training.
Otherwise it's no longer training, it's not sparring nor fighting.

Some students might need a little correcting on this point.

Demos a practice intended to develop timing, distancing, and understanding. Everyone practices according to their method,
Specializing in whatever theory their method is based on.

David Ross, a noted teacher, updated his practice as needed to fit into the modern way of fighting,
whether in the ring or otherwise.

Like most CMA styles used for fighting back in the day, it is still relevant today. However, in the early 70s, in the full-contact venues of the time, many of the "long arm" style punches were not allowed.

Some teachers, like Mike, my teacher, modified the style by adopting boxing hands as a kind of bridge to enter into some of the contests back then.

David Ross, David Chin, and others have also adapted their methods to the modern Lei Tai (擂台) of today.

David Chin, coaching some of his students..

 

[windwalker099]

What I note, in the above video and others like it,

By updating or integrating other aspects into the practice, they seem to have lost some key aspects "flavor" of the style whether this is important or not accords to individual taste.

Master Ng Yim Ming (Harry Ng),
Lion’s Roar Kuen Ging Theories on Fist Fighting By Ng Siu Jong

 

[JowGaWolf]

These movements seem pretty extreme with a couple of these movements actually throwing the “hitter” off balance.

If you are trying this technique at home, then then try big arm circles first. Relax the arm and focus on a relaxed swing

When the technique throws the person off balance it means that the person is not applied the correct stance. The way to tell is when you see the person fall forward or try to regain footing after impact.

If they lean too far forward it could be a sign that they aren't driving power correctly. There will be a slight lean but overall, the dropping of the stance should be what lowers you. The power of the hit comes from pushing forward and twisting the waist. If you try to pivot like a boxer, then the force is going to spin you off balance. If you can't quickly shift and send the same punch from the opposite side, then it's probably because you are off balance or you are sending too much forward force and then trying to go in the opposite direction.

Your attack on the hand/arm would be similar to a blade attack following the same line, accept the blade moves much faster than the open hand.

It is. Earlier this year we had a meet up and I tried FMA for the first time. The purpose of the drill was to hit the stick, but I kept hitting my partner's hand. It was really difficult for me to hit the stick because naturally with that type of swing I target my opponent's hand and forearm by default unless I can reach some other target. I felt bad for my partner on that day

I would consider this technique dangerous if fighting a seasoned fighter.

It's still dangerous even if you aren't a seasoned fighter. If the person isn't afraid to try to use it then it's going to be a danger. People who are afraid to try to use it are the ones who will bail out and not trust the technique. People who are willing to trust the technique will get the hang of it. The biggest challenge for this technique is thinking that you are wide open. It only feels that way but the technique will cover those gaps so long as you don't bail out in the middle of it. I think you could pick up quickly since you do FMA.

Here's the danger. In TMA, the movement for this punch is designed to land on the back of the head. There are 2 targets for this punch. The hinge of the jaw or the back of the head. Depending on the footwork of the person doing the technique, the punch will land on the back of the head or on the jaw by design.

Below is a person using the technique (red shirt). The fist lands on the skull right at the ear. Had he taken a 45-degree step, it would have been enough to cause (black shirt) to turn his head to the right and expose the back of his head to the punch. Notice he's not in a bow stance facing the other guy. This is where the real danger lies and the fact that it's a heavy punch when done correctly.

This his what happens to the head it goes competely side ways. It's difficult to see his head in this picture because that's how far his head went side ways. He was fortunate that the guy in red wasn't better than this. I've never been impressed with this video but it reminds me not to sleep on swinging arms.

This is what a tap of the wheel punch looks like. It lands on the jaw and whips his head around. The way that I got him was to make the punch look like one of our long fist upper cuts. He recognized the first strike, but I changed the second. The punch that I used is not taught in Jow Ga, but once I got comfortable with these punches I saw that I could mix up the second strike and mislead with the first. I'm not a professional fighter, but at that time I was able to land this punch with ease. Even to this day I don't use it in sparring unless my sparring partner can defend against it more than 40%. of the time.

I'm also not leaning way over.

@Tony Dismukes can give you an accurate description of what it's like to try to apply it in sparring for the first time. I was hoping to give him some more punches so he can build out his combos but it looks like I will need to wait a little longer to do that due to some injuries I received from a car accident.

 

[JowGaWolf]

At 1.04, he uses downward parry on his opponent's left arm, his opponent can borrow his force, spins his left arm, and hook punches back at his head.

This is correct, but right after he does it a different way. I can't speak for him but based on what I've done and what I've seen other teachers do, it's an "oops moment." where you make a mistake, and you don't realize it until right after you made it. It happens..

This is the same technque of "scooping hand" It's called "scooping" because that the's the type of energy that you are putting into it. Think of it as "Scooping water vs Slapping water." If I asked you to scoop water as fast as you can without splashing then asked you to slap water, you would be able to tell the difference on how the water reacts even those motions are the same. So we don't want to slap the hand and we definitely don't want to throw it. The thing about scooping that it not done as high as he shows it's. It's a much smaller movement.

He's unable to throw a hook from this position and he's probly more worried about tht punch coming. The cruel version of this would be for me to step 45-degrees forward with my left foot to make him reposition and then blind side him with the same punch.

If I was going to the technique that he does in his video. I wouldn't do it same side. I would scoop cross body. This way I can use "sticky arm" to lift the arm that I scooped while he's trying to pull pull that arm up. The lifting of the arm will also intefer with the second punch and lift that as well.

Do that same technique by using the right hand scooping a low right straight punch and lifting the arm to interfere with an incoming stright punch while. Then is should work correctly. I think this is one of the things that the founders intentionlly set up incorrectly so that outsiders would get it wrong and give up on the technique or say that the technique doesn't work.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

He's unable to throw a hook from this position and he's probly more worried about tht punch coming.

View attachment 31996

If your opponent can borrow your intention (not your force), before your left hand can make contact on his right arm, his right arm can spin. In your picture, his right hand is already below your head. Your right hand is below his head but with some horizontal distance. If you and your opponent have the same speed, since his right hook travels less distance than your right hook does, his right hook may hit your head before your right hook can hit his head.

Of course, you can use left arm to comb hair (or arm wrap). He can also use his left arm to com hair (or rm wrap) too. I'll say it can be 50-50.

I have made this into a drill.

1. A's left hand downward parry (or hook punch) B's right arm.
2. Before A's arm touches B's arm, B right hood punches at A's head.
3. A left arm comb hair to block B's right hook.
4. A repeats 1 - 3 on right hand.
5. B repeats 1 - 4.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If your opponent can borrow your intention (not your force), before your left hand can make contact on his right arm, his right arm can spin. In your picture, his right hand is already below your head. Your right hand is below his head but with some horizontal distance. If you and your opponent have the same speed, since his right hook travels less distance than your right hook does, his right hook may hit your head before your right hook can hit his head

This is true, which is why it's important to mislead your opponent by misleading your intent. In my case, he thought my intention was an uppercut because my first punch started out like an upper cut (Pow Choi). Because of how my fist pulls back, it's difficult to know if the fist will rise, sink, or go straight. My intent was my first punch which was a rising backfist. In training this means the punch will be followed in an uppercut. In application it can be something other than an uppercut. There's no Jow Ga rule that says it must always be an uppercut.

Same concept. Different punch. The drop in the stance misleads intent. If you borrow this intent, then you'll get hit. If you react to the dropping of the stance instead of preparing for punch, then you'll get hit.

Other examples of misleading intent is strikking the guard. Which makes people think I'm trying to punch through it but they soon realize that I'm attacking the guard on purpose. Then misread it again by trying to protect their guard and not their face. This is why I like brawlers. Their intent is always honest they don't use tricks. This is always why I hate sparring relaxed fighters because they are always misleading with their intent.

This is what my intent looked like before he got hit. My right hand has just completed a rising backfist and is going backwards away from my oppoent. If I stand in front of you like this. Do you think "He's going to scoop my left hand and hit me with the right? So with long fist, the techniques naturally hide the intent.

If anyone says they would have jabbed then this is how they would have ended up. A jab would have the exact punch that I was waiting for. It wouldn't matter which jab. Because I will either scoop same side or cross body.

Intent is similar to how you set up a take down. You attack the lead leg, to make your opponent defend it but it was really the rear leg that you wanted. Your opponet thinks the front leg is your true intent but it isn't. It's really difficult to misread intent and not be punished for it. I don't think long fist techniques can work without misleading intent. I don't think it has the speed to directly beat linear strikes and because of that it has to move in a way that misleads and it has to hide punches, and send punches outside of the field of vision.

 

[JowGaWolf]

A static demo showing a particular movement . I’m sure if anything you suggested was done the movement would change. .

Wang is correct about this. Here the scoop hand raises and as a result it gives blue shorts the inside in which he can use a hook to punch. This is bad technique. A technique should not allow this. But in reality the technique isn't broken. It was just that if you want to raise the scooping arm then you need to apply it to the opposit side. So his left hand should scoop is opponent's right arm and bring his opponets arm across his bod and then raise. The striking hand should be the right arm and not the left arm, but this is only if you want to raise your arm above your head. That's the part of the technique that broke when it was done on the same side.

The raising of the arm is often done incorrectly in all systems, The arms raises but it goes under and into the opponent and raises. If you do it this way that that raise arm technique works. But if you just raise the arm then you end up with a lot risk and a lot of "punch pie" which is not heathy for your face. The raise arm technique is more agressive than what most people think. But as far as what Wang is describing. The student does just that in the standing demo. The teachers realizes this is an (oops moment) and corrects it. It happens.

The flawless martial arts teacher doesn't exist. Human's make mistakes. So long as they realize when they do and make changes is all that matters. The ones that act like they didn't make a mistake and continue to teach the mistake because of ego are the types of teachers you want to avoid.

 

[windwalker099]

Wang is correct about this. Here the scoop hand raises and as a result it gives blue shorts the inside in which he can use a hook to punch. This is bad technique.

It's a demo... anyone is free to say what they would do and how, etc.
Being a demo, it's static as both participants know what is being done and why.

What was shown by David Ross, "Lama Pai," is different from those I knew and my own approach.
As such, being a demo of his method/approach.
For "me" it just becomes something noted.

Just as in looking at many of your demos...
the approach is different, reminds me a lot of the CLF I've seen over the years.

Interesting modification of traditional movement..
Looking at it, it seems like he has changed the dynamics
of how the punch is delivered..

Is it still representative, of CLF ?

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's a demo... anyone is free to say what they would do and how, etc.
Being a demo, it's static as both participants know what is being done and why.

I'm not sure if that applies to what wang was pointing out. The fact that the teacher corrects it, tells me that it's not just a demo. That he's explaining practical application. I'm familiar with that teacher and I've have always known him to be application heavy and light on "Demo"

 

[windwalker099]

I'm not sure if that applies to what wang was pointing out. The fact that the teacher corrects it, tells me that it's not just a demo. That he's explaining practical application. I'm familiar with that teacher and I've have always known him to be application heavy and light on "Demo"

Maybe we have different ideas about what "demo's" are
He "David Ross" list it as a

At http://www.sifudavidross.com learn more about the Chan Tai San Lion’s Roar Lama Pai Kung Fu Association and the secret group on facebook. Unlimited access to all the instructional videos even if you are not in NYC.

Maybe we are both correct,,,as part of an instructional video that contains a "demo" of what is being instructed..

Either way, always found his work interesting...

 

[JowGaWolf]

Interesting modification of traditional movement..
Looking at it, it seems like he has changed the dynamics
of how the punches delivered..

Is it still representative, of CLF ?

I'm going to say no it's not representative of CLF. For me it it's like a boxer trying to use CLF but hitting with the wrong knuckles. I'm not even a CLF practitioner and I feel insulted when he says "this is how we use it in real combat situations." then he does something that isn't a Sow Choi.

This is not Sow Choy. This is MMA over hand. Sow Choy travels outside of the field of vision. This punch does not. Sow Cho does that strike with the knuckles here. MMA does because many only know how to strike with those knuckles. If you hit the skull with this punch then you will break the knuckles. If you hit the skull with Sow Choy then you won't break the knuckles. Sow Choy allows you to use sinking power, this does not. If you listen closely at the end, you can hear him say "That's how you do overand." He told on himself.

The MMA overhand and CLF Sow Choy are structurally different. If I teach you Sow Choy and you do what he has show in this video. You would tell me, these aren't the same punch. MMA overhand is like a common punch. CLF

This is what Sow Choy looks like. Take note that the scoop is cross body and not same side. MMA overhand feels like I'm doing a "basic punch" The big circular punchs feel more like I'm using my arm and fist like a club or stick, with a stone on the end. More like a mace or hammer. CLF big swings are the same. More like being clubbed than punch. When I see guys like the video above that show "how it actually works in combat" I get irritated lol because it never looks like the technique that they are claiming. If he actually does CLF then he abandoned the technique and that irritates me more than the video. Why train in something that he/she doesn't trust? is what I always ask.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Either way, always found his work interesting

This is because he's application heavy.
Fun Fact: I got into a debate with him once. He told me I was wrong when I knew I was right. My position was from experience. I personally think he wasn't understanding what I was saying and was picturing something else in his mind and that's what he disagreed with. Sometimes explaining kung fu application through words is a lot more difficult than showing through sparring or fighting. I'm also basing that on my experience with communicating with others. In the past Ive been told that something wasn't possible then I show a video a me doing it. At one point the big looping punches were thought to be outdated and useless and then MMA started doing it and everyone accepts it now. Same with the "oblique kick" (shadow less kick / push kick), but then it showed up in MMA and now people accept it.

But back to David. That disagreement that we had wouldn't have been as heated if he wasn't applications heavy. After that I stop posting in that group because I've seen this story before where no one believes me and then later on I see what I stated being adopted and used by others. Similar to what Kung Fu Wang goes through sometimes. People "hang him" on a technique but a few months later it makes sense and someone would bring up a technique that was the same thing that Wang was saying by they disagreed with. It's happens. It's one of the draw backs to Martial Arts, it doesn't translate into words very well. We could see the same thing video but have different images in out mind of what's happening.

I have respect for David, I know he's applications heavy. I know we had a disagreement and that's fine. It happens. I know he knows his stuff, which is why it was easy for me to pick up on that correction that he made.

 

[windwalker099]

At one point the big looping punches were thought to be outdated and useless and then MMA started doing it and everyone accepts it now. Same with the "oblique kick" (shadow less kick / push kick), but then it showed up in MMA and now people accept it.

Shadow less kick
Tiger tail kick...

gotta love the names

In the 70s, CMA had a bad reputation for practicing one way and using another in the ring.

The label of 'kickboxer' was applied, actually a mislabel because they were not trained as kickboxers.
Some noted teachers of the time, such as Brendan Lai of 7-Star Mantis, among others tried to correct this.
Some ideas floated around included having people perform sets/forms from the style they claimed to represent, before entering the ring, among other's.

Spent a lot of time as a young man correcting the perceptions of those I met about Chinese Martial Arts through sparring them, no internet back then , using Tibetan White Crane.

In retrospect, looking back , probably a waste of time, was interesting, and fun,
met a lot of good people.

Now a little old, working on things found interesting over the yrs...
not into arguments, find sharing experience's, thoughts to be interesting, informative,
thought provoking...in understanding different perspective's

 

[Holmejr]

well, looping motions are typically easy to read. Danny Inosanto used to call them theatrical punches. What I see in the earlier videos are much different from a boxers overhand which are considered semi- round, but more compact. The overhand fist and forearm are inline with the elbow. The motion starts out rounded, but lands straight.

It's a demo... anyone is free to say what they would do and how, etc.
Being a demo, it's static as both participants know what is being done and why.

What was shown by David Ross, "Lama Pai," is different from those I knew and my own approach.
As such, being a demo of his method/approach.
For "me" it just becomes something noted.

Just as in looking at many of your demos...
the approach is different, reminds me a lot of the CLF I've seen over the years.

Interesting modification of traditional movement..
Looking at it, it seems like he has changed the dynamics
of how the punch is delivered..

Is it still representative, of CLF ?

That bottom video is basically the boxing style overhand. Starts circular but lands straight and is much more compact from the original video in this thread. Also the boxing overhead is not overly committed, never taking the boxer off balance. These are not the same techniques. In our FMA, we use the boxing overhead along with parrying out the lead hand when it presents itself. The original #4 videos show a technique that takes one way off center to the point of exposing your back. Can’t quite get behind that technique.