Assumptions and rules how do they affect our training and effect our responses.

[Bill Lear]

OK. Can you help me with an example?

Lone Kimono and the extension for Lone Kimono come to mind. :xtrmshock

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Lone Kimono and the extension for Lone Kimono come to mind. :xtrmshock

OK that's halfway there. Lone Kimono extension assumes attacker doesn't go where you want him to. But it doesn't really assume he is going to fight back and flail at you with all 3 free limbs.

 

[Zoran]

Zoran, are you saying that the ideal phase of the technique is unrealistic in that it will put the attacker out of range or KO? If so, then the Kenpoist has the luxury of adjusting their follow up by adjusting range or targets or by exiting.

The Ideal Phase is unrealistic by nature. But it is necessary to teach a concept or just general motion.

But, that isn't what I was talking about. I was talking about the situation where, instead of doubling over or leaning back as expected in an ideal phase, the attacker ignores the pain and counter attacks from a well covered position and solid base.

I agree and that was my point in my other post. For example, I had a situation where in a confrontation I hit my attacker hard with a handblade to the throat. I know I connected and felt the penetration, but physics went out the window as he came swinging like a lunatic. His mind, what ever was going through it when he got hit, decided to come at me harder than before, instead of being concerned that he was having a hard time breathing. He did run out of steam as he really wasn't getting enough oxygen for his physical exertion (physics did eventually catch up). Had I not been able to adapt to this sudden change, I would have been in a lot of trouble.

Again, it all comes down to training. If you are exposed to the unexpected early in your training, then you are more likely to be able to adapt when things do go south in the real world.

OK that's halfway there. Lone Kimono extension assumes attacker doesn't go where you want him to. But it doesn't really assume he is going to fight back and flail at you with all 3 free limbs.

One thing I like to do when teaching a technique class is having the attacker add a random second attack during the execution of a technique. I add this at the beginner level at the end of class every so often. It's a good way to slowly get the student prepared for more advanced training that will come later.

My last comment I would like to make is there is a need for balance. I hear often that your best weapon is your mind. I have to disagree. Your best weapon is when your mind, body and spirit (heart) work in unison to create a functional whole. So the understanding of all these principles is not enough, you need the whole package.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

See, the fact that we use the word assumptions seems incorrect. An assumption, according to websters.com
5 a : an assuming that something is true b : a fact or statement (as a proposition, axiom, postulate, or notion) taken for granted

My problem is that the word assumption doesn't say much in regards to what we are assuming is true. It just say's we are assuming something is true. What is that "something" and can we account for it? I believe we can account for it with sound physical principles.

I like the word "approximations" better. Definition:
1 : the act or process of drawing together
2 : the quality or state of being close or near <an approximation to the truth> <an approximation of justice>
3 : something that is approximate; especially : a mathematical quantity that is close in value to but not the same as a desired quantity

Why? Because the definition takes into account that our techniques or responses to an attack involve the "act of drawing together." (Drawing together visual stimulus, gauging the attackers body weight, strength of attack, etc...) In addition, as in my previous post, when striking the opponent (after a degree of training) the Kenpo practicioner creates a response that is "close in value to but not the same as the desired..." But it WORKS. It's good enough for the technique to work.

Even attacks are approximations. When practicing and your partner attacks and you take his speed and power into account. The attacker attempts to approximate what an attack would really be like so that you may train realistically and recognize the pattern of what a punch or kick looks like. Each person attacks approximately like another human, but not identically.

Thanks, Brad Bode

Smallville:

Well said. Welcome to the fray.

DC

 

[Bill Lear]

OK that's halfway there. Lone Kimono extension assumes attacker doesn't go where you want him to. But it doesn't really assume he is going to fight back and flail at you with all 3 free limbs.

I cannot see how anyone could flail away at me with their other three limbs if I got the first move of a technique off on them. Sorry, but it just don't believe it would happen that way.

I've used Kenpo in a live situation more than once, and three times I pulled of a Kenpo technique. Most recently I managed to use Mace of Aggression against a right step through roundhouse punch. (I discovered a problem with this technique as a result. I ended up pulling the guys broken teeth out of my elbow after he hit the pavement.)

 

[howardr]

I cannot see how anyone could flail away at me with their other three limbs if I got the first move of a technique off on them. Sorry, but it just don't believe it would happen that way.

I've used Kenpo in a live situation more than once, and three times I pulled of a Kenpo technique. Most recently I managed to use Mace of Aggression against a right step through roundhouse punch. (I discovered a problem with this technique as a result. I ended up pulling the guys broken teeth out of my elbow after he hit the pavement.)

Hey Billy. Congrats on successfully surviving the encounter. Would you mind providing a little more detail on how you used Mace of Aggression against a roundhouse punch?

Thanks.

 

[Bill Lear]

Hey Billy. Congrats on successfully surviving the encounter. Would you mind providing a little more detail on how you used Mace of Aggression against a roundhouse punch?

Thanks.

The guy was dancing around like a boxer when he committed to the first step-through roundhouse punch. I ducked under it (His forearm barely brushed the top of my head as I was ducking). The second time he came at me he committed to the same attack (which I knew he was going to do by the way he reset with his left foot forward and his right foot back).

When he came at me the second time I executed a double block against his forearm (similar to Five Swords). From there I latched onto his right arm with my left hand and tried to hit him with an inward elbow strike. The inward elbow barely missed, but the outward elbow caught him square in the teeth. It broke a hole in his front chompers reminiscent of a Looney Toons character eating a golf ball (Almost a perfect circle in the middle of his pearly whites).

When I got home later that day that I found his broken inscisors lodged in my elbow. It got infected (people have bacteria in their mouths, ya know?). I'm just glad I didn't get anything from him. There was a lot of blood on me when everything was said and done. It wasn't my blood though, and that's what counts I guess. Kenpo works.

 

[distalero]

I disagree.
In physics everything is based on approximation, but with varying degrees of accuracy. When NASA sends a rocket to the moon they are counting on some very complicated laws of physics. However, they are also rounding numbers, accounting for jitter in the spacecraft, and a multitude of other variables. They ALL matter, but they are all, at some level, approximations. When calculating how long it will take for an object to reach the ground if dropped from 2 feet we use a constant for gravity, 9.81 m per sq sec. The 9.81 number is rounded and not very specific, but it does the trick. The time for the object to fall 2 feet can be calculated with a high degree of accuracy. How specifc of an answer does the problem call for?
Why does this relate to Kenpo? Because, I believe what we do IS a science. Our minds and body's are well attuned to physics. We know that if we jump we can clear a fence, etc... Our bodies are making approximations as we walk, run, etc... Physics underly every movement we make so why shouldn't they be discussed, academically, as applicable to the Martial "Arts". In todays age can we really ignore science and keep calling what we do an "Art".
Our goal in the "Arts" is to strike someone and effect them in a way that ends the confrontation. Would you say that when struck in the neck with a solid handsword you can expect your opponent to react in a specific way? When I throw a ball at the ground I expect it to bounce back. Of course there are variables. A pebble might be in the way and perturb the return path, however, we can count on, for the most part, a clear outcome. We train with expectations about how the body will react when struck and those are very, very, accurate simply because they are based on physics! Our goal is to approximate human movement enough to create the desired response or outcome......
.
My 2 cents.
Thanks.

I take your point about approximations; I certainly agree, and it's the point I was trying to make. I was contrasting a lay view of 'Science', as a cold, precise and universal set of "Laws" in APPLICATION, vs. what you've described here. Thanks for this clarification. In fact, I maintain that even if one's brand of Kenpo insists on every practioneer in the room doing a move exactly the same way, you'll probably be hard pressed then, and certainly later, to find everyone doing anything "exactly". Not by definition, anyhow. Nor should one, necessarily, which goes to your next point, where I don't agree.
After connecting with a solid handsword to an opponent's neck would I "count on , for the most part, a clear outcome"? Absolutely not (individual response is a biggie, as pointed out in a subsequent post here). Neither does Kenpo. "Move on to this next move, keeping in mind what you've just done", says Kenpo, conceptually. "Do a neat little set of such moves, so that you can call it a technique. Makes it easier to look at it, study it for any information you can take from it. We'll call this move the 'first move' of the technique, and this move the 'last' move. Arbitrary, but we don't want this thing to run on all night. And remember: the first thing you take from it? NO GUARANTEES." I wonder how we forget this. Confrontations, attack and response, CAN run on, until somebody missed something, making the other guy lucky. A pebble just became a boulder. OFK puts a list to this issue very well; I'd encourage everyone to go back and read it.
As for "Art" vs. "Science", an 'art' is accepted as interpretive, and 'science' is an accepted approach and a rigor in investigation of an hypothesis, but really, there can be a small difference between the two (medicine comes to mind), and in our case there's a whole lot of interpretation and very little science, so I think we can feel free to call it what we want.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

The guy was dancing around like a boxer when he committed to the first step-through roundhouse punch. I ducked under it (His forearm barely brushed the top of my head as I was ducking). The second time he came at me he committed to the same attack (which I knew he was going to do by the way he reset with his left foot forward and his right foot back).

When he came at me the second time I executed a double block against his forearm (similar to Five Swords). From there I latched onto his right arm with my left hand and tried to hit him with an inward elbow strike. The inward elbow barely missed, but the outward elbow caught him square in the teeth. It broke a hole in his front chompers reminiscent of a Looney Toons character eating a golf ball (Almost a perfect circle in the middle of his pearly whites).

When I got home later that day that I found his broken inscisors lodged in my elbow. It got infected (people have bacteria in their mouths, ya know?). I'm just glad I didn't get anything from him. There was a lot of blood on me when everything was said and done. It wasn't my blood though, and that's what counts I guess. Kenpo works.

Good job Billy.

I've also fought successfully and TKO'd an opponent without getting hit. I was fortunate. I saw his charge and hit him first. He didn't have the heart to continue fighting after my 3rd punch to his face.

I have also seen a pair fight for 20 mintues+ in a bar and then the parking lot. The fight was won by a furious drunk little guy with a minimal IQ and a very thick skull completely immune to the well-landed punches of his heavier stronger younger smarter and more skilled opponent.

It is this situation that challenges the Kenpo assumption of technique flow and repeated strikes to dsiable an opponent. Kenpo does work. But it isn't always as easy as we would all hope.

 

[Bode]

And remember: the first thing you take from it? NO GUARANTEES. --distalero

I agree.
It's senseless to train with a 100% guarantee that each strike is perfect. Our techniques wouldn't need to go beyond the first strike if that were the case. "Counting on" a clear outcome does not mean you disregard the fact that the human machine is error prone. We train to reduce the erros by being specific with our response to an attack. If the attack suddenly changes due to a defunct handsword then we shift into another strike that might be completely unrelated in the hierarchy of techniques.
We are in agreement.

and in our case there's a whole lot of interpretation and very little science, so I think we can feel free to call it what we want.

But here is where we disagree. My comment regarding approximations applies here. I believe that particular strikes have a repeatable outcome. I have seen or felt numerous people be knocked out from a very light series of or single taps to nerve points. Everyone reacted approximatly the same way. They stumble, look confused, and soon search for the ground. It's repeatable. The light tap was, of course, performed under ideal conditions. (A compliant person, matted floor, etc...) The real world is different and when a real fight occurs you cannot 100% guarantee anything. However, you can strive, through scientific study and methods, to achieve repeatability even in the real world situations. To use an extreme example. If I hit someone, full force, on the head, with a baseball bat, I am never guaranteed an outcome, but I think most would agree that you can be quite certain the person will fall. Why? Because everyone knows how much force can be generated from a baseball bat. There is science involved in this strike. Would you hit someone with a baseball bat as if it were a golf club, swinging from a downward to upward arc. Or would you use a baseball bat as it was intended? A baseball bat works best when used a specific way, which can be determined by trial and error or by scientific evaluation. The baseball swing is stronger if performed in a specific way. Science can prove it, repeat it. Why are martial arts any different? Why are they interpretive? Maybe we are agreeing and don't know it?
Is there interpretation only because someone hasn't codified the science behind the art? After all, you can't make millions defining the science behind martial arts. No one cares. No corporation can make a mint off of the findings.
Any MD will tell you they feel there is some art in what they do. (My friends do at least). However, the "art" or "interpretation" is built upon a vast amount of scientific knowledge. They filter the "art" through the science.
It's not that I am arguing for the lack of interpretation or art, but that science should and can take the front seat.
Thanks for the very friendly discussion. You are forcing me to think and put my thoughts into words (which, as we all know, can be extremely difficult).
-Brad Bode

 

[Touch Of Death]

The guy was dancing around like a boxer when he committed to the first step-through roundhouse punch. I ducked under it (His forearm barely brushed the top of my head as I was ducking). The second time he came at me he committed to the same attack (which I knew he was going to do by the way he reset with his left foot forward and his right foot back).

When he came at me the second time I executed a double block against his forearm (similar to Five Swords). From there I latched onto his right arm with my left hand and tried to hit him with an inward elbow strike. The inward elbow barely missed, but the outward elbow caught him square in the teeth. It broke a hole in his front chompers reminiscent of a Looney Toons character eating a golf ball (Almost a perfect circle in the middle of his pearly whites).

When I got home later that day that I found his broken inscisors lodged in my elbow. It got infected (people have bacteria in their mouths, ya know?). I'm just glad I didn't get anything from him. There was a lot of blood on me when everything was said and done. It wasn't my blood though, and that's what counts I guess. Kenpo works.

Billy,
I've spent my entire Kenpo Life listening to the Ed Parker and the Mike Pick digging teeth out of their natural weapon stories, and now you. This just has to be one of those things you have to conciously think about when you fight. I'll bet you pay more attention to angles these days.LOL
Sean

 

[Bill Lear]

Old Fat Kenpoka,

You're right. It isn't easy. It does take time and practice. I'd say practice that involves a little realism in the studio perhaps. Thank you for you kind words.

I have seen fights that carried on for a lengthy period of time too. Most of which were alcohol induced episodes of stupidity. (I used to work as a bouncer at a local night club for a few years).

Sean,

You're right! I'll definately be looking at a different way to take care if it. Pulling teeth out of my knuckles and joints isn't something I'd like to repeat anytime soon.

Sheesh... There is definately something that feels right about the creed when you think about it. I'd feel pretty stupid getting a disease like HIV for something as simple as a traffic altercation or throwing someone out of a bar. I guess it is best to use it only when forced to, eh?

:asian:

 

[Bode]

I've spent my entire Kenpo Life listening to the Ed Parker and the Mike Pick digging teeth out of their natural weapon stories

For all the science I mention it all comes down to the confrontation and whether or not you survive. Mr. Lear, in your case, you did. One can only train to reduce the likelyhood of failure. Success is not guaranteed.
Congrats.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Old Fat Kenpoka,

You're right. It isn't easy. It does take time and practice. I'd say practice that involves a little realism in the studio perhaps. Thank you for you kind words.

I have seen fights that carried on for a lengthy period of time too. Most of which were alcohol induced episodes of stupidity. (I used to work as a bouncer at a local night club for a few years).

Sean,

You're right! I'll definately be looking at a different way to take care if it. Pulling teeth out of my knuckles and joints isn't something I'd like to repeat anytime soon.

Sheesh... There is definately something that feels right about the creed when you think about it. I'd feel pretty stupid getting a disease like HIV for something as simple as a traffic altercation or throwing someone out of a bar. I guess it is best to use it only when forced to, eh?

:asian:

I wouldn't worry too much about Aids unless his mouth was already filled with blood at the time. Its the Heppatitus that will get ya.
Sean