Asking To Test

[PhotonGuy]

How about this: if you want to ask, then ask. See what happens.

There. Done. 16 pages later, Jeezuz.

Oh I forgot to say, if you ask at a school such as the one Buka went to, you get suspended from rank advancement for the next six months.

So asking can lead to some bad results that you might not want.

 

[Flying Crane]

Oh I forgot to say, if you ask at a school such as the one Buka went to, you get suspended from rank advancement for the next six months.

So asking can lead to some bad results that you might not want.

Be a big boy, make up your own mind, and then do or do not.

 

[dancingalone]

I'm missing a lot of subtext in this conversation clearly, so I won't say more than this.

Be selective when you pick an instructor and school (this should not be done lightly if you are an adult and know MA is a longterm endeavor for you). Cultivate a good relationship with your teacher. This means being honest about your goals and reasons for training. Work hard when you are in class and make an earnest effort to learn the lessons even if its something you don't necessarily care for at that moment. Over time when the teacher recognizes you are worth the extra investment, you will benefit from his knowledge.

A relationship is a two-way street. Yes, the teacher owes you something if you are paying him tuition. But, invest in your relationship with him beyond the monetary arrangement. He will do the same. In the end, martial artists love sharing what they know. Make it easy for that process to happen.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Over 200 students, wow that's quite a bit. For a small school with maybe 10 or 12 students at the most I can see how it wouldn't be that hard to develop close relationships with all your students and to know exactly where they are in terms of skill level but if you've got over 100 students, or for that matter 200 students it must be very difficult unless you've got lots of assistant instructors.

As for a student not progressing in rank for 10 years it could be because of a bad relationship with the instructor, or it could be that maybe the student just doesn't care to promote any further. People take up the martial arts for all different reasons, desires, and goals. For some people rank progression just isn't one of those reasons, desires, or goals.

With 100 (about what the school was like when I was one of the senior instructors), I didn’t have any trouble knowing where students were, from a skill perspective. And with larger schools, you usually have more instructors and/or senior students assisting, and they can give that input.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My point is that if a student wants to further promote and the student has been showing up to class and training regularly and if a reasonable amount of time has passed where the student holds their current rank and by reasonable I mean in proportion to the length of time it took for the student to be promoted the last time they were promoted, there is nothing wrong with the student saying something to their instructor about it.

Ok.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You're overlooking the (large) school owner perspective. With so many students, I must separate students by rank and skill so there is sufficient time and space alloted for their particular needs. I don't have a lot of time to type it out right now, but just give it a thought. If I have floor space for 30 students to move around comfortably....200 or so students divided into all ranks and ages.... 1 full time instructor (me) and 2 part time instructors and 1 office manager....

How might those considerations affect my thoughts on student promotions? Why on earth in that set up would a student that is capable of ranking up, not rank up? Should I just make exceptions for him all the time? Push him to privates only?

The focus on not gaining rank seems peculiar to me. It is admirable to not chase it for its own sake, but let's realize it is not necessarily about ego or money. Grades exists to create organization and order. This is very important when you go beyond a handful of students if you want to stay sane while keeping the level of practice and instruction focused to their matching audiences. Now think about getting even bigger and what you have to do to scale there?

Even with smaller schools, rank makes a great shortcut for things like pairing up students for the first activity.

 

[PhotonGuy]

If a student asks to test and is not ready yet, I will happily test them. Occasionally they rise to the challenge.

I would think, its not a matter of whether or not a student is ready to test its a matter of whether or not a student is ready to promote, to determine whether or not a student is ready to promote, that's the purpose of the test.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I run color belt exams 4x a year and a dan test 1x a year.

So why do you run a dan test only once a year when you run color belt exams four times a year?

 

[KOKarate]

I would think, its not a matter of whether or not a student is ready to test its a matter of whether or not a student is ready to promote, to determine whether or not a student is ready to promote, that's the purpose of the test.

It’s the same thing. If they’re not ready to promote they shouldn’t be in the test. Everyone in a test should already have passed in the minds of the panel they just have to come in and show it on the day

 

[KOKarate]

So why do you run a dan test only once a year when you run color belt exams four times a year?

I assume it’s because dan ranks shouldn’t be given out as quick as color belts which is just obvious

 

[dancingalone]

So why do you run a dan test only once a year when you run color belt exams four times a year?

Because it is a long test with some exhaustive measures to show the candidate has achieved some significant milestones. It's difficult to pass.

Also, I usually bring in some additional judges just to mark the occasion. I do not need to being a 7th dan myself in karate, but it is nice to grow fellowship and give the test a mark of distinction for the black belts testing.

 

[dancingalone]

I would think, its not a matter of whether or not a student is ready to test its a matter of whether or not a student is ready to promote, to determine whether or not a student is ready to promote, that's the purpose of the test.

Sure. But you understand the difference? I let anyone test, because it is egalitarian. That way if they really feel they are ready but for whatever reason they haven't been invited, they can invite themselves. It rarely happens, but I think it is a good safety outlet/quality control measure to have.

 

[PhotonGuy]

It’s the same thing. If they’re not ready to promote they shouldn’t be in the test. Everyone in a test should already have passed in the minds of the panel they just have to come in and show it on the day

In that case why even test? If you know if a student is ready to promote there is no need to test them, you can just promote them.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I assume it’s because dan ranks shouldn’t be given out as quick as color belts which is just obvious

That depends, in the USA they tend to make a big deal out of promoting a student from 1st Kyu to 1st Dan. In Japan on the other hand 1st Dan is just another rank, nothing special about it. Its just the rank after 1st Kyu and before 2nd Dan.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Because it is a long test with some exhaustive measures to show the candidate has achieved some significant milestones. It's difficult to pass.

Also, I usually bring in some additional judges just to mark the occasion. I do not need to being a 7th dan myself in karate, but it is nice to grow fellowship and give the test a mark of distinction for the black belts testing.

So is your head instructor from the USA? If so I understand why they would make a big deal out of promoting students to 1st Dan.

 

[KOKarate]

In that case why even test? If you know if a student is ready to promote there is no need to test them, you can just promote them.

Because they need to show they can perform under pressure in a pressure filled environment. Why do exams at school if the teachers have already shown them everything

 

[PhotonGuy]

Sure. But you understand the difference? I let anyone test, because it is egalitarian. That way if they really feel they are ready but for whatever reason they haven't been invited, they can invite themselves. It rarely happens, but I think it is a good safety outlet/quality control measure to have.

They might really ace their test even if they do lousy in practice, just like how some figure skaters might sometimes do lousy in practice but do their best performance during competition and ace the competition.

When a student does a kata that they're being tested on for promotion, or if they're doing a kata in a competitive tournament, they're going to go all out and do their very best, its going to be different then if they were just doing it for practice.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Because they need to show they can perform under pressure in a pressure filled environment. Why do exams at school if the teachers have already shown them everything

You've got a point there about students showing they can perform under pressure. I take it some students do fail promotion tests at your school.

As for tests and exams in academic schools, just because a teacher shows their students certain stuff, certain academic material, doesn't mean the students have wired it and know it. That's what the tests are for, to show that the students have wired the material.

 

[Buka]

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So why do you run a dan test only once a year when you run color belt exams four times a year?

I expect it's for three reasons:

1. Fewer people to test (by an order of magnitude), so don't need as many spots.
2. Years between testing individuals, so once a year is good enough.
3. They take more time, so they're held less often.