The point of testing students

[JR 137]

I see. Well the dojo where I did most of my training, tests were scheduled about every four months. It was ultimately up to the student if they wanted to test although the instructor might recommend against it or tell you that you're not ready. The point is, though, that just because it was up to the student if they wanted to test that didn't mean a student could test whenever they wanted. Tests were done every four months so that's when a student could test.

So in other words, any student could test once they were eligible? By eligible, I'm assuming they met the minimum time in grade/number of classes.

So long as it's an actual test where students fail if they haven't met the standards for their rank, I see no issues with it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I see. Well the dojo where I did most of my training, tests were scheduled about every four months. It was ultimately up to the student if they wanted to test although the instructor might recommend against it or tell you that you're not ready. The point is, though, that just because it was up to the student if they wanted to test that didn't mean a student could test whenever they wanted. Tests were done every four months so that's when a student could test.

I think the difference is the type of test. In a grappling-heavy art, it's difficult to test mutiple people at the same time when testing individual techniques. So there's no scheduled cycle of tests, and each test has to be scheduled individually.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So in other words, any student could test once they were eligible? By eligible, I'm assuming they met the minimum time in grade/number of classes.

So long as it's an actual test where students fail if they haven't met the standards for their rank, I see no issues with it.

Well tests were ran every four months so therefore the minimum time before you could promote would technically be four months. And yes students did fail if they didn't perform up to par.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I think the difference is the type of test. In a grappling-heavy art, it's difficult to test mutiple people at the same time when testing individual techniques. So there's no scheduled cycle of tests, and each test has to be scheduled individually.

With grappling arts here are the ways I've seen for students to be promoted. In Judo you get promoted by going to tournaments and winning matches. Depending on your rank you would have to win so many matches against so many opponents of a certain rank or above in order to promote. In Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, in which I am now currently training you get promoted when the instructor sees you're ready in which case you get a stripe on your belt or if you've already got so many stripes you go up a belt.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

With grappling arts here are the ways I've seen for students to be promoted. In Judo you get promoted by going to tournaments and winning matches. Depending on your rank you would have to win so many matches against so many opponents of a certain rank or above in order to promote. In Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, in which I am now currently training you get promoted when the instructor sees you're ready in which case you get a stripe on your belt or if you've already got so many stripes you go up a belt.

Agreed. My point was about "when testing individual techniques".

 

[JR 137]

Well tests were ran every four months so therefore the minimum time before you could promote would technically be four months. And yes students did fail if they didn't perform up to par.

Was the minimum time in grade 4 months for all kyu (colored belt) ranks?

Both schools I’ve been at had different minimums for different ranks; ie 10th kyu-6th kyu was 3 months, 5th-3rd was 6 months, 2nd and first were 9 months. Or something like that.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Was the minimum time in grade 4 months for all kyu (colored belt) ranks?

Both schools I’ve been at had different minimums for different ranks; ie 10th kyu-6th kyu was 3 months, 5th-3rd was 6 months, 2nd and first were 9 months. Or something like that.

Technically yes, the minimum time to go up a kyu grade was technically 4 months since tests were scheduled four months apart although particularly with 3rd kyu and above students would take longer. I never knew of any student who advanced from 3rd kyu to 2nd kyu or from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu in 4 months, it would take at least 8 months.

 

[Anarax]

Some martial arts schools don't test students, rather they simply promote the student when the student is ready. The student might put on a demonstration with the purpose of showing off what they've learned and so forth but unless their performance affects the outcome, another words, unless there's the possibility of failing and not being promoted as well as the possibility of passing and being promoted than its not a test. Its a demonstration, plain and simple. Now, Im not saying such methods are wrong or bad but there are some schools that require a student to pass a test in order to be promoted. Their performance during the test determines whether they get promoted or not. Now, some might ask what's the point of having a test that the instructor should know if the student is ready or not to promote without having to test the student. Well, the point of testing the student is that it tests the student's performance under pressure. When you're taking a test and you know you're taking a test and the outcome depends on how well you do there is a certain amount of psychological pressure that you have to deal with. So that's why some schools use tests.

One of the things an instructor will look for in a test will be the students ability to perform under pressure. Having an entire room full of people watch you demonstrate techniques adds another dynamic to it.

 

[PhotonGuy]

One of the things an instructor will look for in a test will be the students ability to perform under pressure. Having an entire room full of people watch you demonstrate techniques adds another dynamic to it.

Exactly. And that to some extent mimics the real pressure you will be subject to in a real self defense situation should you ever be in one. And when you're not only in a room full of people watching you but your performance also determines whether you will pass or fail, that really brings on the pressure.

 

[Balrog]

I've seen this used three ways:

1. As you describe - the test is a formality.
2. As I use it - the test is a chance to look for anything I missed.
3. As a chance to see them perform under stress and/or to create some struggle, one more thing for them to achieve (the latter not really being a martial purpose, but a development purpose).

I think that's actually 4 - #3 should probably be split.

I like your 3/4. Performance under stress is overlooked so often and yet it is so critical. It is a major confidence builder, and we all know that confidence is a integral component of self-defense.

For students testing for Black Belt, SWMBO and I devise an "instructor's challenge" for them. Perhaps it's a harder board break attempt. Perhaps it's sparring multiple opponents. It will be specific to that individual. I don't really care if they are successful at it. What I want to see is that they will tackle the challenge with no hesitation and do their best to succeed.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I like your 3/4. Performance under stress is overlooked so often and yet it is so critical. It is a major confidence builder, and we all know that confidence is a integral component of self-defense.

For students testing for Black Belt, SWMBO and I devise an "instructor's challenge" for them. Perhaps it's a harder board break attempt. Perhaps it's sparring multiple opponents. It will be specific to that individual. I don't really care if they are successful at it. What I want to see is that they will tackle the challenge with no hesitation and do their best to succeed.

I like that concept. I might even end up stealing it.

 

[Balrog]

Can't steal a gift, bro. Feel free to use as desired.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Can't steal a gift, bro. Feel free to use as desired.

Don’t spoil my fun.

 

[Balrog]

 

[drop bear]

Agreed. My point was about "when testing individual techniques".

You just need a partner. You could test as many people as can fit on a mat.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You just need a partner. You could test as many people as can fit on a mat.

I can't watch 5 people perform the technique at the same time.

 

[Prostar]

I used to take my students to my instructor for their black belt test. The first thing he would tell them is that Jeff would not bring you here if you were not already qualified. He then proceeded to put them through a test that I say they more had to survive than pass. Those students will never forget that experience.

 

[dvcochran]

This is key, IMO. Even the hardest tests I've been through didn't generate the fight-or-flight response as experienced when physical violence is imminent. I got value from the struggle of the test, but it wasn't (IMO) a way to get used to that kind of stress.

I agree, but for most it is a good start to handling pressure.

 

[dvcochran]

Testing can be used for other things too...

1. Quality control.
Look at this class and teaching schedule: http://www.seido.com/fileuploads/HonbuFullSchedule.pdf
With several hundred students and classes running from 7:30 am-9 pm, students are going to get overlooked if there's not a solid plan in place. Some students might not ever see the CI if their personal schedule conflicts with the school's schedule. If I was a student there taking classes under different instructors, there could be too much variation in when the difference instructors thought I was ready.

Testing students from different schools also serves as quality control. If teachers consistently bring students who don't perform as well and/or fail, that can be addressed. If students from a particular school are all performing specific standardized techniques differently from the rest of the schools, that can also be addressed easily. With a central figure testing students from affiliated schools, the CI is held accountable for his/her students. These issues continually arise and get addressed.

2. The test is part of the learning process itself.
Students learn to pass AND fail gracefully. Especially the kids. They learn they have have to put in the work, and they have to perform when it matters most. They still have to perform every day in training, otherwise they won't test; but they also have to perform well when the pressure's really on. They're not going to get a participation award in the form of a promotion. They have to earn it. If and when they fail, they're taught they need to work harder and/or smarter if they want to be successful. If the student didn't accomplish their goal, they've got to change their approach. That's a life lesson that can't be simulated the same way and to the same extent without the testing process.
There's been students over the years who've been forced out of their comfort zones and are better for it. I remember a female student in my previous organization who refused to spar with males. She was told from the beginning she'd have to during her training and especially during her black belt test where she'd spar with men she didn't know. She wasn't from my dojo and none of us knew what her issues were, but it seemed obvious to me that there was some form of abuse from male(s) in her past. She was a wreck during the required sparring, but she got through it admirably. She later on told me and a few others that it really helped her personally.

I found the "Advanced White Belt" humorous.

 

[JR 137]

I found the "Advanced White Belt" humorous.

I never really thought about that. Now that you mention it, I agree.

The “advanced” part is basically used in place of getting a new colored belt every single time. Instead of 10 colors there’s only 5. Makes things simpler.

But yeah, somehow “advanced white belt” is a bit of an oxymoron. Thanks for pointing that out. I’ll never be able to read, write, or say it again without chuckling.