The point of testing students

[geezer]

no i cant be examined, with out an examination, i can be assessed, i like the school, and the teacher and the stuff I'm learning, plus they let me take my dog along

Interesting. Is this a personal distinction? Or perhaps something more characteristic of British English rather than my humble colonial dialect? ...Out here in the sticks, the word "assessment" is pretty much interchangeable with "examination" these days.

Language changes. In a previous century, I spent my last two years of high school at an old-fashioned boys' preparatory boarding school. Instead of being a "juniors" or "seniors" we were referred to as "fifth formers" and sixth formers. Our teachers were "masters" and the principal was the "headmaster". And, at the end of each semester, we didn't just take tests, we "sat for exams" which took hours, and our answers were written out longhand in "bluebooks".

Now, as a high school teacher, when I conclude my semester teaching my students take a final "assessment". Apparently, at least in American public education, the term exam is a bit passe ...as is paying teachers a livable wage ...but I digress.

Regardless, whether you prefer exams or assessments, and whether such testing is formal or not, you are examining the students' performance and progress. Hell, give a kid a magnifying glass and he or she can "examine" bug without the bug having to sit for an examination!

Good thing too. Can you imagine having to grade those teeny-tiny blue books?

 

[jobo]

Interesting. Is this a personal distinction? Or perhaps something more characteristic of British English rather than my humble colonial dialect? ...Out here in the sticks, the word "assessment" is pretty much interchangeable with "examination" these days.

Language changes. In a previous century, I spent my last two years of high school at an old-fashioned boys' preparatory boarding school. Instead of being a "juniors" or "seniors" we were referred to as "fifth formers" and sixth formers. Our teachers were "masters" and the principal was the "headmaster". And, at the end of each semester, we didn't just take tests, we "sat for exams" which took hours, and our answers were written out longhand in "bluebooks".

Now, as a high school teacher, when I conclude my semester teaching my students take a final "assessment". Apparently, at least in American public education, the term exam is a bit passe ...as is paying teachers a livable wage ...but I digress.

Regardless, whether you prefer exams or assessments, and whether such testing is formal or not, you are examining the students' performance and progress. Hell, give a kid a magnifying glass and he or she can "examine" bug without the bug having to sit for an examination!

Good thing too. Can you imagine having to grade those teeny-tiny blue books?

its very unusual in English to get two words, let alone three that are completely inter changeable, that they are different usually means the correct use is,different. Assessment , test and exam all denotes different things, particularly in a learning environment, so it makes no differance informally , but if i take my feet to the doctors to be examined, and he tells me to jump up and down to test them, I've been short changed i want them examined, if i take my car to the mechanics to have my brakes tested and he examines, but no test, then i still don't know if they work or not, as he hasn't tested them.

if someone assess my roof as being leak free, that's of no use to me as he has nether tested nor,examined it.

all very different uses.

 

[FighterTwister]

its very unusual in English to get two words, let alone three that are completely inter changeable, that they are different usually means the correct use is,different. Assessment , test and exam all denotes different things, particularly in a learning environment, so it makes no differance informally , but if i take my feet to the doctors to be examined, and he tells me to jump up and down to test them, I've been short changed i want them examined, if i take my car to the mechanics to have my brakes tested and he examines, but no test, then i still don't know if they work or not, as he hasn't tested them.

if someone assess my roof as being leak free, that's of no use to me as he has nether tested nor,examined it.

all very different uses.

I see your point and agree with you here on that above point.

Although I see this as a common issue when people communicate especially in online social media Forums.

Language, perception and interpretations, expressions, terms and meanings are very tricky or are the trappings of communication and discussions especially in English because of its linguistics or expression complexity and its history - More here on that......... English language - Wikipedia

If one just reacts hot on a topic/discussion rather than stop research and think about it, there is normally some form of misunderstanding or error, it just happens.

So it just happened to be that you two guys got caught in that loop as you guys were sharing your views and opinions.

I continuously edit my posts after I post them for this very reason, language the choice of words and sometimes in correcting my post I lose the meaning or sentence structure of the point I'm making and start all over again.

Its one of the reasons I like being in Forums it helps me to be sharp on this area of writing a post because writing / language is an art form all to itself, is it not?

Your QWERTY Ninja skills LoL

 

[Flying Crane]

Well yes I do know that some Chinese martial arts schools, kwoons as they're called, do use colored sashes to denote rank but as you said that is rather modern and was not used in the old school traditional Chinese systems. I've also seen Chinese systems that use a ranking system that's based not on belt color but rather on patches. You would wear a certain patch depending on your rank, and the patch for the lowest rank and the highest rank were identical, it was just an empty circle. The philosophy behind that was that when you reached the highest rank you had gone full circle and had reached a new beginning. Thus you were back where you started.

I am aware that some Chinese schools use a ranking method of some sort. Either way, it is a more modern adaptation.

There is an understanding of a senior student vs. a junior student, and it is typically a relationship between the individuals. One can be a senior to one person, but a junior to another. Most of these are personal relationships rather than an official ranking or position in the school.

There can be distinctions made between a beginner, intermediate, advanced student, and disciple as well, with specific curriculum for those levels. I have learned up through the intermediate curriculum, but had no test nor promotion when sifu began teaching me the intermediate material. He simply began teaching it to me.

Becoming a disciple is a specific step, but it is not a test nor a rank. It is a request made by the student, and the sifu can accept or decline the request. There is usually a ceremony to acknowledge the status.

The sifu agrees to teach the complete system to the disciples who are the next generation of the system and are responsible for passing it to the following generation and keeping the method alive.

You can be a teacher without being a disciple. I have taught, I simply do not know the complete system. However, what I have is actually a lot, it is plenty, and most people never learn this much of it anyway so I actually have a lot to teach.

Again, none of this comes with a test or a promotion, at least not in my school.

 

[Danny T]

In the field of Education here in the U.S., these definitions are used:

• A test or quiz is what is used to examine someone's knowledge of something to determine what he or she knows or has learned. Testing measures the level of skill or knowledge that has been reached.

• Evaluation is the process of making judgments based on criteria and evidence.

• Assessment is the process of describing, collecting, recording, scoring, and interpreting information of someone’s learning or skill with the goal of making improvements, as opposed to simply making a judgment or an evaluation.

 

[geezer]

...its very unusual in English to get two words, let alone three that are completely inter changeable...

Well said. Even words that are nearly synonymous have subtle differences of connotation, and one reason English is such a wonderfully descriptive language.

 

[geezer]

In the field of Education here in the U.S., these definitions are used:

• A test or quiz is what is used to examine someone's knowledge of something to determine what he or she knows or has learned. Testing measures the level of skill or knowledge that has been reached.

• Evaluation is the process of making judgments based on criteria and evidence.

• Assessment is the process of describing, collecting, recording, scoring, and interpreting information of someone’s learning or skill with the goal of making improvements, as opposed to simply making a judgment or an evaluation.

You'll note that there is quite a bit of overlap between these terms. In actual practice, I find that "educators", especisal those with administrative positions pay more attention to whatever the current trends in terminology are than thinking these things thorugh deeply! In other words, they really love to repeat whatever the current buzzwords and catchphrases are and invariably gravitate to whatever term has more syllables and sounds more erudite ...for example replacing simple, understandable words like "use" with "utilize" whether or not appropriate just because they think it makes them sound smarter!

Personally, I'll often take good straight-forward Anglo-Saxon English, however rough and guttural, over BS academic "ed-speak" couched in polysyllabic greco-latinate sesquipedalinisms any day of the week.

...now back to the topic...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Some martial arts schools don't test students, ...

Sometime the student doesn't want to take the test. If you have trained MA for 20 years and still have a white belt on your waist, when you defeat some black belts, it will make them to feel bad, and make yourself to feel good.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

it means nothing,as you won't define the terms you are using,
when you have decided what is a test and what is an exam, a discussion might have some point,

You are more capable than that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

its very unusual in English to get two words, let alone three that are completely inter changeable, that they are different usually means the correct use is,different. Assessment , test and exam all denotes different things, particularly in a learning environment, so it makes no differance informally , but if i take my feet to the doctors to be examined, and he tells me to jump up and down to test them, I've been short changed i want them examined, if i take my car to the mechanics to have my brakes tested and he examines, but no test, then i still don't know if they work or not, as he hasn't tested them.

if someone assess my roof as being leak free, that's of no use to me as he has nether tested nor,examined it.

all very different uses.

In that context.

 

[Danny T]

You are more capable than that.

Capable but not willing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When I jointed in the YMCA Karate club in Austin back in 1972. I started as a white belt. One day a TKD black belt from Dallas (the Karate instructor's young brother) who challenged me in front of the whole class. After I defeated him in the match, he started to cry. He did know that I had over 10 years CMA training before that.

Sometime to wear a white belt do have advantage. If you lose in a challenge match, people won't say anything. If you win, you will make your opponent to feel bad big time.

 

[PhotonGuy]

When I jointed in the YMCA Karate club in Austin back in 1972. I started as a white belt. One day a TKD black belt from Dallas (the Karate instructor's young brother) who challenged me in front of the whole class. After I defeated him in the match, he started to cry. He did know that I had over 10 years CMA training before that.

Sometime to wear a white belt do have advantage. If you lose in a challenge match, people won't say anything. If you win, you will make your opponent to feel bad big time.

Perhaps, but you could be accused of sandbagging.

 

[Danny T]

When I jointed in the YMCA Karate club in Austin back in 1972. I started as a white belt. One day a TKD black belt from Dallas (the Karate instructor's young brother) who challenged me in front of the whole class. After I defeated him in the match, he started to cry. He did know that I had over 10 years CMA training before that.

Sometime to wear a white belt do have advantage. If you lose in a challenge match, people won't say anything. If you win, you will make your opponent to feel bad big time.

A black belt challenged a white belt? Hmmm...what is the rest of the story?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A black belt challenged a white belt? Hmmm...what is the rest of the story?

The YMCA Karate instructor told his young brother (who just received a TKD black belt in Dallas) that there was a new student in his Karate class who knew Kung Fu (Back then Bruce Lee was still alive, and Kung Fu TV serious just started). The instructor's young brother challenged me in front of the class. Since I had never sparred with any TKD guy before, I played defense. My opponent liked to throw side kicks. When he kicked me, I used my left palm to block his kick, I then dropped my right elbow on the side of his foot (the metal against wood strategy). After he could no longer kick me. I jumped in from 15 feet away with one punch on his face and end that fight. Through the entire match, I only threw 1 punch.

 

[Danny T]

So he didn't challenge a white belt he challenged a much higher level Kung Fu martial artist.

 

[PhotonGuy]

The YMCA Karate instructor told his young brother (who just received a TKD black belt in Dallas) that there was a new student in his Karate class who knew Kung Fu (Back then Bruce Lee was still alive, and Kung Fu TV serious just started). The instructor's young brother challenged me in front of the class. Since I had never sparred with any TKD guy before, I played defense. My opponent liked to throw side kicks. When he kicked me, I used my left palm to block his kick, I then dropped my right elbow on the side of his foot (the metal against wood strategy). After he could no longer kick me. I jumped in from 15 feet away with one punch on his face and end that fight. Through the entire match, I only threw 1 punch.

Im not sure if bringing your elbow down on his foot would be legal in a TKD match. It might get you disqualified. Anyway, if you were able to bring your elbow down on his foot, he needed to learn to bring his kicks back faster.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So anyway some people have said that if a student can decide whether or not to test that its not a good way to run a dojo and that its most likely a McDojo, as the term has been used. Students should not be able to test whenever they want. Well, I've never heard of a dojo that lets students test whenever they want. At a dojo I went to a student could only test if they were running a test, which was done approximately every four months.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So anyway some people have said that if a student can decide whether or not to test that its not a good way to run a dojo and that its most likely a McDojo, as the term has been used. Students should not be able to test whenever they want. Well, I've never heard of a dojo that lets students test whenever they want. At a dojo I went to a student could only test if they were running a test, which was done approximately every four months.

It depends what you mean by "whenever they want". At the dojo I did most of my training at, once a student had all of the techniques for the next test, it was mostly up to the student to schedule their test with their instructor.

 

[PhotonGuy]

It depends what you mean by "whenever they want". At the dojo I did most of my training at, once a student had all of the techniques for the next test, it was mostly up to the student to schedule their test with their instructor.

I see. Well the dojo where I did most of my training, tests were scheduled about every four months. It was ultimately up to the student if they wanted to test although the instructor might recommend against it or tell you that you're not ready. The point is, though, that just because it was up to the student if they wanted to test that didn't mean a student could test whenever they wanted. Tests were done every four months so that's when a student could test.