Asking About A Promotion

[MJS]

There was a thread over at the Kajukenbo Cafe (which has since been removed) in which a member commented on someone being promoted to 9th degree in Kaju. He had asked who had made the promotion. This member was, IMO, simply asking, in a nice way, who did the promotion, and from what I saw, never received a direct answer. Instead, it seemed like it was a big 'hush hush' sort of thing. It didn't seem that he was being rude or disrespectful in any manner, again, just asking a simple question.

Some other members, commented that it was wrong and disrespectful for someone to ask about a high ranking instructors promotions, who they received it from, etc. Others commented that it wasn't a big deal, and as long as someone was polite about it, they'd have no problem with someone asking them questions about their rank.

So, that brings us to this thread. In your opinion, do you feel that its wrong, disrespectful, etc, to ask a potential teacher, who promoted them? IMO, as long as you're not being a complete jerk about it, I see nothing wrong with asking someone about a promotion that they received. IMO, if the person in question, has nothing to hide, then why not answer? You'd think that you'd be more than happy to talk about something like that.

 

[lklawson]

In your opinion, do you feel that its wrong, disrespectful, etc, to ask a potential teacher, who promoted them?

No. It's one of the few ways we, a students, have to protect ourselves from frauds.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

Absolutely not rude, in my opinion. It's suspicious to be evasive about something like that. I can't think of any reason I would be reluctant to share my lineage. I'm proud to train with my coaches and of the affiliations I have.

 

[WC_lun]

For me, if an instructor is evasive about providing such information, it would set off all kinds of alarm bells. Instructors should be completely candid in where they learned thier art and who promoted them. Anything else is suspicious. Of course, don't be a jerk about asking.

 

[Blindside]

I think it is strange, I am proud of my lineage(s) and am happy to tell people who my instructors are and where my rank comes from.

Thinking about it, I haven't had many people ask, or they don't ask until later in their training when they start thinking about how the system is organized politically rather than just what is in the curriuculum.

 

[pgsmith]

I agree with the other posters that it should not be an issue. I've asked that question of any number of folks (both here and in Japan), and only once have I had someone get upset. In that instance, there was some question about the legitimacy of the fellow's instructor and he got very defensive about it.

 

[MJS]

Yup, I agree....lack of response raises the red flags. Likewise, I've had people ask who I've trained with, and I've had no issues with telling them. Hell, in fact, there've been many times when I've openly said it in a post that I've made on here, without being asked.

 

[chrispillertkd]

There was a thread over at the Kajukenbo Cafe (which has since been removed) in which a member commented on someone being promoted to 9th degree in Kaju. He had asked who had made the promotion. This member was, IMO, simply asking, in a nice way, who did the promotion, and from what I saw, never received a direct answer. Instead, it seemed like it was a big 'hush hush' sort of thing. It didn't seem that he was being rude or disrespectful in any manner, again, just asking a simple question.Some other members, commented that it was wrong and disrespectful for someone to ask about a high ranking instructors promotions, who they received it from, etc. Others commented that it wasn't a big deal, and as long as someone was polite about it, they'd have no problem with someone asking them questions about their rank.So, that brings us to this thread. In your opinion, do you feel that its wrong, disrespectful, etc, to ask a potential teacher, who promoted them? IMO, as long as you're not being a complete jerk about it, I see nothing wrong with asking someone about a promotion that they received. IMO, if the person in question, has nothing to hide, then why not answer? You'd think that you'd be more than happy to talk about something like that.

It's not rude at all. If a person cannot or will not answer the question then I'd be very hesitant to train under them. This is true whether they are a 1st dan or a 10th dan.

To be honest, your example about the gentleman from Kajukenbo sounds like an example of someone who might have promoted themselves and wanted to keep that fact out of the public light. Now, if it's true that rank isn't important then it shouldn't matter one whit if 1) he promoted himself, or 2) he got a promotion from someone with a reputation for promoting people if their check clears, or 3) if his promotion was legitimate and from a reputable source. But the fact is, no matter how many times people say rank isn't important it is and so people get touchy when the subject comes up.

Please note, I do not say rank is the most important things. Simply that it is important. There are plenty of things that are more important; skill, a willingness to work hard at training, understanding of your art, etc. but all those things are supposed to be what helps determine your rank in the first place. People just tend to associate higher ranks with having a higher ability in these areas so when someone is reticent to say who gave them a certain rank red flags go up.Pax,Chris

 

[rainesr]

It shouldn't be. At the two places I train now both instructors stated thier lineage in converstion without me asking.

One of the reasons I left my first school was becuase a teacher lied about his promotion. The wierd thing about it was the person who actually promoted him was legitimately able to promote him, had a solid lineage, and is well respected in the art.

~Rob

 

[Steve]

There are a couple times where I've seen legit martial artists fudging their lineage. One is when they were promoted by people whom they later realized didn't have great reputations.

The second is when they had a falling out with the instructor or affiliation in which they were promoted and are kind of orphaned in the their art. I first trained with a guy like that. I ended up leaving the school because he was so evasive (and other reasons). Guy was a very talented, serious martial artist, but I just couldn't get a straight answer from him about where he'd trained. Turns out I ended up training BJJ with a lot of guys who'd trained with him in a different style of martial arts. Filled in a lot of blanks. In the end, he just sort of left the school on bad terms, burned bridges and was ultimately not really able to associate himself with that old school. So, he had demonstrable technique, but no real easy way to explain why he wasn't a part of the association that trained him.

Interestingly enough, I've seen the same thing happen in BJJ in this area a few times now.

 

[Sukerkin]

It should always be important to a student what the lineage of his teacher is because that then becomes his lineage. Of course I might be a bit more likely to take that more seriously than some outside the koryu arts .

Mind you, even from my old Kung Fu days there can be a hang over into the present. You see there has been some falling out between my old teacher and the heads of the style - so sometimes I get an odd reaction chatting with martial artists in the area when I mention that back then I was taught by George Shaw. I'm not embarrassed or evasive about it; he was good and I learned a lot from him and even not knowing what caused the bust up I'm not going to deny where I learned my unarmed style (that I still miss training in ... darned busted arm!).

 

[jks9199]

I see nothing inherently disrespectful in asking about lineage or promotions. The manner it is done could be disrespectful, and hounding someone who is credible but reluctant might be. For example, I asked someone about their rank in a particular style. Their answer was, in brief "I don't talk about that; that's not my focus anymore." I've met others in very small systems who essentially said "Yeah, you've never heard of the system or the guy who promoted me, but his name is..."

At the same time -- I gotta wonder, what's it really matter? Skill and ability will speak for themselves, and even the rawest newbie will figure out if the teacher he's training with is full of crap in time, or they're getting what they want.

 

[arnisador]

No one should be offended by such a question! The answer may be self-promotion, which may or may not be OK. Ed Parker got away with it!

 

[geezer]

No one should be offended by such a question! The answer may be self-promotion, which may or may not be OK. Ed Parker got away with it!

Organizational politics being what they are, I know several people who ate essentially self-promoted, or elevated to their leadership status by their peers in their organization. I have no problem with this as long as they are up front about it. For example, one guy I study FMA with laughingly states that he never earned a black belt in anything in his life. Yet he is the top instructor in his system.

Another guy I know was involved in an acrimonious organizational split. He was already at master level, but after the split had to continue his own training "under the radar" so as not to get his own instructor involved in the political mess. After a a number of years, this man's associates and the instructors under him in his new organization felt it appropriate to honor him with a rank promotion. He accepted the promotion only after several other well known masters in other unrelated branches and associations of the same style signed the certificate as a sort of "peer review". All things considered I thought this was a very honorable way to approach this difficult situation.

In the final analysis, ranks and certificates are just formalities. Make of them what you will. If somebody breaks away and declares himself head of this own organization, so what ...as long as they are honest and straight up about it.

 

[WC_lun]

At the same time -- I gotta wonder, what's it really matter? Skill and ability will speak for themselves, and even the rawest newbie will figure out if the teacher he's training with is full of crap in time, or they're getting what they want.

Skill and ability will show down the road, but how much wasted money, time, and effort does that include? A beginner has no basis to judge what is inferior and what is solid martial arts. For instructors, thier lineage is thier certificate of study and thier certificate to teach. This tells the beginner that someone has held this person to a standard and he surpassed that standard. This doesn't neccesarily have a ton to do with rank. For instance I know a very, very, good teacher in BJJ that started teaching as a brown belt. He was upfront about his rank, who he studied under, and that he was approved to teach.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Skill and ability will show down the road, but how much wasted money, time, and effort does that include? A beginner has no basis to judge what is inferior and what is solid martial arts. For instructors, thier lineage is thier certificate of study and thier certificate to teach. This tells the beginner that someone has held this person to a standard and he surpassed that standard. This doesn't neccesarily have a ton to do with rank. For instance I know a very, very, good teacher in BJJ that started teaching as a brown belt. He was upfront about his rank, who he studied under, and that he was approved to teach.

This is true, to some extent. However, that same beginner also has no way to know that Grandmaster Dorkface who has a 10th Dan certificate from Ashida Kim is likely to be bogus.

 

[MJS]

It's not rude at all. If a person cannot or will not answer the question then I'd be very hesitant to train under them. This is true whether they are a 1st dan or a 10th dan.

To be honest, your example about the gentleman from Kajukenbo sounds like an example of someone who might have promoted themselves and wanted to keep that fact out of the public light. Now, if it's true that rank isn't important then it shouldn't matter one whit if 1) he promoted himself, or 2) he got a promotion from someone with a reputation for promoting people if their check clears, or 3) if his promotion was legitimate and from a reputable source. But the fact is, no matter how many times people say rank isn't important it is and so people get touchy when the subject comes up.

Please note, I do not say rank is the most important things. Simply that it is important. There are plenty of things that are more important; skill, a willingness to work hard at training, understanding of your art, etc. but all those things are supposed to be what helps determine your rank in the first place. People just tend to associate higher ranks with having a higher ability in these areas so when someone is reticent to say who gave them a certain rank red flags go up.Pax,Chris

Good point. I wasn't looking at it like that, however, like you said, I too, have said, many times, that rank, compared to other things, ie: how well one knows the material, how well they can teach it, apply it, etc, isn't as important. I suppose when it comes to rank, and how it was obtained, either from hard work, or one of the others, in the end, people will question it, and it'll be the person who obtained that rank, that'll have to live with themselves.

 

[MJS]

Skill and ability will show down the road, but how much wasted money, time, and effort does that include? A beginner has no basis to judge what is inferior and what is solid martial arts. For instructors, thier lineage is thier certificate of study and thier certificate to teach. This tells the beginner that someone has held this person to a standard and he surpassed that standard. This doesn't neccesarily have a ton to do with rank. For instance I know a very, very, good teacher in BJJ that started teaching as a brown belt. He was upfront about his rank, who he studied under, and that he was approved to teach.

Excellent point!

 

[MJS]

This is true, to some extent. However, that same beginner also has no way to know that Grandmaster Dorkface who has a 10th Dan certificate from Ashida Kim is likely to be bogus.

Another good point! This is why, IMO, its good to do your homework.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

There was a thread over at the Kajukenbo Cafe (which has since been removed) in which a member commented on someone being promoted to 9th degree in Kaju. He had asked who had made the promotion. This member was, IMO, simply asking, in a nice way, who did the promotion, and from what I saw, never received a direct answer. Instead, it seemed like it was a big 'hush hush' sort of thing. It didn't seem that he was being rude or disrespectful in any manner, again, just asking a simple question.

Some other members, commented that it was wrong and disrespectful for someone to ask about a high ranking instructors promotions, who they received it from, etc. Others commented that it wasn't a big deal, and as long as someone was polite about it, they'd have no problem with someone asking them questions about their rank.

So, that brings us to this thread. In your opinion, do you feel that its wrong, disrespectful, etc, to ask a potential teacher, who promoted them? IMO, as long as you're not being a complete jerk about it, I see nothing wrong with asking someone about a promotion that they received. IMO, if the person in question, has nothing to hide, then why not answer? You'd think that you'd be more than happy to talk about something like that.

I see no problem whatsoever in a student (or peer) asking about a promotion in a respectful manner. Usually the 'hush-hush' is a red flag and the line of 'you're being disrespectful to ask' is just the cover up. I've seen many people here (and other boards) have no issue in asking others about their rank/promotions. The irony is that many of those asking will themselves duck and hide when asked about their own rank/promotion(s)/histories, even when politely asked. Again, red flag.