articles in WCI magazine...

[Juany118]

Long fist, long arm, long bridge. That is a semantics game, not one of substance.

---I defined the terms. It certainly does have substance.

I have shown a video. How many kicks does Sifu Jerry use in the MUSU fight I have posted, kicks are part of a TCMA long game.

---So you showed a clip of a TWC fighter kicking. And you think that is an example of the entire "long range game" and an example of conducting the entire fight from long range, equivalent to what a boxer could do??? Kicking can indeed be an important element of a "long range game." But just because someone is kicking doesn't mean they have a "long range game" that goes beyond just a "long range strategy." The clips I showed of Wing Chun guys just stepping in and starting punching had kicks as well.

You have yet to show how boxing demonstrably improves in the long game of TWC.

----I proposed it as a possibility. And not even a necessity! And yet people have gotten all butt-hurt at the suggestion that there might be room for improvement in their Wing Chun!!!


You know the history of @LFJ and I, yet I can look at his video and say "that is WSLVT" in his video in terms of long game and say that the take down, while not WSLVT via PB (it's there is Gary Lam's though) is irrelevant.

----So you are so caught up in justifying your current beliefs, that you are willing to look at an MMA training video that shows both obvious grappling elements and obvious boxing elements, and then take LFJ's word that the boxing element has been part of WSLVT all along? Really?? I have to say I'm a bit disappointed you in. I thought you were more open-minded about things like this.

So we have videos already posted. You even posted a video of GM Cheung using WC against a boxer.

---Sure. And he wasn't doing much from long range!!!! And neither was the boxer at the time.

If you feel the WC you study and teach needs a gap filler that is fine, I don't study yours so I won't say you are wrong but you are saying other Lineages also need such an addition and it's seems clear what applies to one lineage doesn't apply to all.

----So now you are even picking up on LJF's derogatory term???? I've said multiple times now that some people may be perfectly happy with the long range strategy that goes along with their Wing Chun. And that's Ok! I've also said that it is not the equivalent of what other systems that were actually designed to work from long range can do. That's just common sense. So logically speaking, a Wing Chun guy can improve their abilities at long range by looking to one of those systems. You can call that "gap filling" if you want. I just call it "cross training" or "common sense" But its just amazing at the number of people that have gotten all offended by my suggestion! And yet I'm the one accused of being "ego driven"???

The thing is when you defined them it was rather arbitrary. You defined the terms long after you first used them based on what appears to be a confirmation bias. Such things do lack substance imo.

As for an entire fight NO FIGHT, not even boxing, is entirely from long range. As a matter of fact there are schools of Western Boxing that rely heavily on getting into what one could call trapping range, these boxers are sometimes referred to as swarmers.

That said I am now shaking my head at showing an entire fight conducted at long range. You will find no such actual fight in boxing either. They will test with jabs from long range, which a WC fighter can also do with hands (albiet shorter range) or kicks (longer range). They then flow between close range and this longer range.

I just think you are looking at the wrong problem. Is there a problem with how many schools train WC? Yes. The only train WC vs WC and this allows a myopic focus on the hands because of how drills are structured. If however you don't simply train WC and test against WC but train to actually fight with WC and test against other forms of fighting you learn to use everything from any range, to flow between them as the fight dictates.

That is simply my experience. I regularly spar with my brother in law who is a 2nd Dan in TKD. I have a long game against him. I used the close range game in the beginning because he was vulnerable to it. He has since gotten better at addressing that and I rarely get into trapping range consistently, when I do I go for takedowns/control because I know he wont let me stay there long. I still however, with my punches and kicks give at least as good as I get because I regularly train against styles other than WC precisely to avoid the pit fall that comes from how, not what, most WC practitioners train.

 

[KPM]

In other words,

"I'm a bit disappointed you in [sic]. I thought you were on my side and would back me in disqualifying a particular sparring bout based on unrelated clips that also happen to be in the same compilation".



VT can do whatever you required of it, unless your definition of "long-range game" requires overextending punches or spinning kicks. But, these are not necessary in order to conduct and end a fight from long range.



No one is offended by your suggestion. We are just pointing out that it applies only to your incomplete knowledge of WC and the incomplete WC you have knowledge of.



Have you not learned the form?

Explains why you're confused a lot, if you haven't completed even a broken system of Wing Chun.

Pathetic. That's all you've got, isn't it? Pretty pathetic! Attack the messenger and ignore the message. Obfuscate when it is clear you can't provide solid evidence to back up your beliefs. Pathetic. And tiresome. I'm about done with this.

 

[Juany118]

Let me clarify something as well. At one point I said Kali helped with my WC long game, this is true but it was largely a matter of speed of adaption. Kali rams home out of the gate distance and timing because of the weapons. WC would have brought that forward as well, but that largely comes from free sparring/fighting which obviously most any TMA school doesn't throw you into out of the gate. It's there from the beginning but putting it into practice, the most effective way of really learning it, simply comes later in WC than Kali because, in my experience, weapons sparring starts earlier in FMA than sparring in WC.

 

[LFJ]

That's all you've got, isn't it?

What? Clearly demonstrated long-range VT along with ample explanation of the method?

 

[LFJ]

I think it's pretty weak too, I expected something more.....

It's enough to show that what I'm talking about exists. If you want more, go to a school.

 

[LFJ]

Nah been there done that.....

Following DP, or a related school?

Not all WSLVT is equal. Just like many YM students, there are a lot of WSLVT instructors who didn't learn fully and teach a non-functional version of VT. There are also some outright charlatans claiming the lineage. So, it really depends on where you went.

 

[karatejj]

You think you can punch this guy in the face pretty easily, huh?

I think you'd have a hard time, but his knee could be kicked at almost any point in there, because boxers don't need to be concerned about such dangers in the sport. So, he leaves his lead leg there without much movement while focusing on upper body evasion.

You should actually train knee kicks and try it out against boxers before you say what is much easier to do.

That guy is a boxer with boxing movement. Any boxer will have that too. So boxing wins!

 

[drop bear]

If I wanted to start kicking the knee out of a boxer I would really want to be able to out box them.

A good defense to knee kicks is beating people into a bloody stain.

 

[Martial D]

What? Clearly demonstrated long-range VT along with ample explanation of the method?

To be fair, I saw no such thing in that video either...even in the few seconds of that mma sparring match you specified.

And you really haven't explained anything as per methodology.

Me, I'm done trying to get juice from this particular rock. Good luck KPM!

 

[LFJ]

To be fair, I saw no such thing in that video either...even in the few seconds of that mma sparring match you specified.

And you really haven't explained anything as per methodology.

It wasn't short-range...

I explained the neutral stance, lateral evasive footwork, covers, long-range kicks, drawing and baiting tactics, opportune punches, etc..

None of that is non-VT, and only the cover is similar to WB, but not non-VT. Sorry you didn't spend enough time to learn VT free-fighting strategy and tactics before giving up.

 

[LFJ]

Your more talk and theory than practice and fighting

MartialTalk... It's a discussion forum to continue discussing your system outside of training and fighting.

 

[LFJ]

why would I take you serious?

I don't care if Malos1979 or any other user does or not.

I simply discuss the system I train. If you don't like it or find it worthwhile to discuss, you don't have to read it or comment.

 

[KPM]

Keep on talking, haven't seen any topic were you post your credentials or even introduce yourself, so why would I take you serious?

Yeah, stick around long enough and you'll discover that LFJ has little if any credibility here.

 

[LFJ]

I know one thing, that he is a black belt 10th dan keyboard warrior

I'm faulted for engaging in discussion on a discussion forum like everyone else?

You wanna fight me, or something, and you're not the keyboard warrior?

 

[KPM]

I'm faulted for engaging in discussion on a discussion forum like everyone else?

You wanna fight me, or something, and you're not the keyboard warrior?

Anyone that resorts to personal attacks when they don't have a good argument.....attacking the messenger when you can't negate the message.......anyone that repeatedly criticizes what other's have to say and calls everyone else's Wing Chun "broken"...anyone that will never ever post video of themselves showing their abilities, but will freely criticize others when they do.......yeah, little credibility!

 

[karatejj]

It wasn't short-range...

I explained the neutral stance, lateral evasive footwork, covers, long-range kicks, drawing and baiting tactics, opportune punches, etc..

None of that is non-VT, and only the cover is similar to WB, but not non-VT. Sorry you didn't spend enough time to learn VT free-fighting strategy and tactics before giving up.

Oh, I can believe that you wing chun contains these things, that you move differently, have different strategy, don't use contact reflex and sensing intent that ALL wing chun is reknown for. But then WHY is it SOOO different to everyone else's wing chun? Is it even wing chun..sure doesn't look like it. Anwer me that one!

Maybe your teacher changed a bit more than he is letting on to you?

 

[LFJ]

But then WHY is it SOOO different to everyone else's wing chun?

People like KPM get butthurt when I spell it out in full detail, even though recently his threads have been admitting what I have been saying all along. I don't care to convince anyone. Like KPM, they'll come to realize it on their own.

 

[KPM]

People like KPM get butthurt when I spell it out in full detail, even though recently his threads have been admitting what I have been saying all along. I don't care to convince anyone. Like KPM, they'll come to realize it on their own.

I have been admitting what exactly??

 

[LFJ]

I have been admitting what exactly??

Deficiencies of your supposedly YM derived WC.

 

[LFJ]

this guy doesn't have the decency to introduce himself properly.

I have been on this forum since 2014. You, two weeks.
I've been on another forum that had many of the same users here since 2007.
You're knocking on the door and telling me to introduce myself??