Chinese Secrecy

[DeLamar.J]

Traditionally, Chinese masters used a very nonsystematic format. They expected their disciples to struggle to glean the tiniest bits of information from their lessons. In ancient times, people kept their fighting skills secret for various reasons. They used the knowledge to defend their lives and the lives of loved ones, and sometimes they used it to cause trouble. Either way, it was best to keep the skills concealed lest their practice attract too much attention. East Asians also believed that no precious skill should be taught too freely: A student’s struggle to acquire ability would test not only his discipline and commitment to the art, but also his commitment to his teacher.


http://blackbeltmag.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=464


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I'm curious as to what the CMA folks here think of this article, while it does list a number of things that are indeed poor teaching methods, how common is this? How where you taught?

How about folks from other styles? How do things get taught in your school? and of course, to put into context, what style of martial arts do you do?

Real Chinese martial arts will still remain secret, because the general public and the legal system is not ready for real CMA.

 

[pstarr]

I teach Chinese martial arts. We don't keep "secrets" from our students; we expect them to dig into what they're taught, ask questions, and train regularly.

Training is traditional except that we explain the "why" as well as the "how" of what we do.

There's no "holding back" of information for just one or two pupils.

 

[Makalakumu]

Personally, I'm sick and tired of reading that things are black and white or red and blue and there is no in between or that it's hard to find. Tired of reading why we can't find middle ground, why this is wrong because that works better in this scenario and that scenario will likely never happen and yadda yadda yadda.

From what I have seen, there is very little "good" teaching in Martial Arts. The traditional aspects of the arts that we practice cling to practices that are not only outdated, but, are in fact, counterproductive.

This is really sad, because much of the instruction we see now days actually prevents a student from meeting a teacher's goals.

What are we doing to bridge this gap? How do we make instruction in instruction more available to the Martial Arts world? Gosh, isn't that what makes TMA so valuable, still? That many old-style or pseudo old-style TMAists do indeed teach people who can teach how to teach well? And should this be part of required curriculum or a supplemental program for those who wish to teach in the future? And who would teach it? How do we accredit people for this purpose?

IMHO, its impossible to go out and start forcing every MAist out there to get some formal training in instruction. What we can do is go out and get it for ourselves. And in my case, because I already have the advanced training, I can create systems that ensure that this knowledge is passed down my lineage. We live in a different world. There is no rule that says that MA teaching and learning may not adapt to it.

 

[Makalakumu]

I am a CMA guy and I am not going to tell you were to stick it because you are not wrong, for the most part.

My 2nd Sifu (and he is an old Chinese guy from old school CMA, Yang style Taiji) taught Tai Chi with applications, Qigong, push hands, free style push hands, etc, basically real tai Chi for 9 years. 3 years ago he started talking about retiring from his full time job to open a fulltime tai Chi school. All of us that had been there a while thought "GREAT" and we were very wrong. He changed his style to a point where he now teaches only form and does not care if it is correct. He has a lot more students but no old students left. We all have stopped going but his new students are collecting forms left and right no applications, no internal, no push hands just sloppy forms.

As for Chinese masters keeping secrets, yup they do. But now for the unpopular part of the show. Generally they know that most westerners do not really want to train they way they should to be real CMA people. And if they want to make a living teaching CMA they have to lighten up. My first Sifu taught us Chen the way he would teach in China. The class started with 40 people and ended with 6. He never taught that way again and his classes got so packed you hardly had room for the form.

My current Sifu for non sport Sanda (Qinna Gedou) will not teach a class on Sanda for multiple reasons One is, as he says, training is hard and boring and most people will not train and he only wants to teach what he was taught in the way he was taught it. Also this is not the way he makes his living either.

I recently attempted to return to Xingyi training as well, but my schedule and the teachers schedule simply would not match up but he is teaching Tai Chi for a living as well and he also is very good at Xingyi and Bagua and he is an American. His Tai Chi classes are very successful but he has separated them into various groups, beginner, intermediate, advanced, push hands, martial applications and his Push hands and martial classes are the smallest. He also told me that he would really like to have a successful Xingyi class but he could never get enough people interested in the training because it was first hard and second not pretty. Last I knew he was trying to combine Bagua with Xingyi in one class to keep the numbers up to make it profitable enough for him to continue. But my hat is off to him because he absolutely refuses to water Xingyi down to gain students, He still insists on starting every class with at least 12 minutes of standing in santi. And I absolutely appreciate his attitude, the first class he said this. “If while you are doing standing training if you feel pain let me know, then I can adjust you stance to where it should be to try and help, but if while standing your leg muscles hurt I don’t want to hear it, your training Xingyi”

If you go to China to train and find a real teacher and you complain or don’t train or show up late or don’t show up a few times or tell him or her that you don’t want to do martial arts you will be either asked to leave or told not to show up anymore. In America they have to accommodate you if they want to have a school that makes money. In China if you want to have a school that makes money you have to train your students hard or you have no students.

Probably not the most popular thing I could post but I appear to be good at that today. But this is the truth at least from my point of view.

OK all have at me.

There is more to good teaching then just "hard" training. Good instruction can be very rigorous and very effective.

While I appreciate your point regarding the overall dislike that many American's have for things that are difficult and take time, I disagree with the sentiment that just because sifu does something that makes you sweat, he/she is teaching you effectively.

 

[Xue Sheng]

From what I have seen, there is very little "good" teaching in Martial Arts. The traditional aspects of the arts that we practice cling to practices that are not only outdated, but, are in fact, counterproductive.
This is really sad, because much of the instruction we see now days actually prevents a student from meeting a teacher's goals.

IMHO, its impossible to go out and start forcing every MAist out there to get some formal training in instruction. What we can do is go out and get it for ourselves. And in my case, because I already have the advanced training, I can create systems that ensure that this knowledge is passed down my lineage. We live in a different world. There is no rule that says that MA teaching and learning may not adapt to it.

There is more to good teaching then just "hard" training. Good instruction can be very rigorous and very effective.
While I appreciate your point regarding the overall dislike that many American's have for things that are difficult and take time, I disagree with the sentiment that just because sifu does something that makes you sweat, he/she is teaching you effectively.

Wow, my last day of lurking before I stop checking MT all together and I find this and as much as I know I should just log off, shut down the PC and let it go, I just can’t. But this does not mean I am back, I am not. I told myself today is the last day of lurking and it is, but this required a rant, the last rant.

You are displaying the very attitude that gives traditionally trained CMA teachers the excuse to not teach properly. Why should they, you already gave them the impression that you know more about it than they do so tell me why they should bother teaching at all? Little alone teaching you depth.

Did I say sweat? Don’t think I did, that has little to do with it. But on that topic if a teacher implements so much as a semi-difficult warm up you start to hear things like what does this have to do with Tai Chi, Xingyi, Bagua, etc. What I am mainly talking about is that from time to time in MA training any MA training you are going to get hurt once in a while or you are going to get a leg cramp once in a while or it is at some point going to be uncomfortable and yes you may actually sweat at some point. As a matter of fact if you train Tai Chi, real tai chi that is, it is not uncommon for a beginner to sweat profusely.

It has to do with being faithful to the style and not making it easier to gain students. Not teaching Tai Chi or Xingyi light. And to train the style intact can be hard, uncomfortable and boring and traditionalist, particularly Chinese teacher not from the US, cannot train as they were trained if they want to make money teaching.

Also, and when I use to teach I saw this all the time. A teacher teaches a student a form or an application and the student goes off to there usual life, not only not practicing what they have been shown but not even thinking about it. Then returns to class and asks the same exact question again or wants to go over what they were taught the week before for the entire class, the rest of the students be damned.

OK so the teacher takes the time and works it in, even stays later to assist and then the next week the same student comes back with the same questions but this time they are not alone because another student now sees no reason to train because the teacher is going over the same thing again so the attitude becomes, I don’t have to train or why bother training and eventually you loose all of your serious students but you have a class room full of students that do not train or if they do train they don’t listen so they don’t train right and this is where, if you could train full on Chinese traditional, the teacher would have asked the person that was not training and wasting class time to leave a long time ago.

Also I do not care what anyone thinks says and or does if you want to call it out-dated so be it, I frankly call it proven, the training from a style is suppose to include stance training there is a reason beyond just leg strength or if it involves Qigong training or qinna training or jumping jacks for that matter and if a student is not willing to train correctly then why should the teacher, any teacher for that matter bother teaching any depth at all. If that depth means someone is going to complain oh that’s to hard or I’m not doing that my legs hurt, or say I’ll sue. And face it bottom-line at this point teaching the class is so much easier from the point of view of the teacher. They work less, get more students and get more money. I have seen this happen at 2 CMA schools in the last 15 years. And the Wing Chun School that refuses to buckle to the pressure is still small and the Sifu is still forced to work a full time job outside of Wing Chun. But he is staying true to his form and teaching depth and very happy with Wing Chun. \

Feel free to have at me, I will not reapond anymore

Ladies and Gentlemen it has been fun but this was my last rant. Like I said to a few recently. I am fighting the fire while feeding the flame getting way to annoyed about this stuff and it is time to stop.

XS

 

[Makalakumu]

I will not reapond anymore...

Okeydokey...

But I'll respond anyway. Just imagine for a minute what would happen to a martial art if a teacher learned modern coaching and teaching theory and methods. Methods that REALLY are proven in real life tests and not assumed to be proven because of anecdote and myth.

Would this destroy the art? I don't think it would.

XS - what you are describing above isn't what I'm talking about. You are describing bad students...and teachers learning how to teach bad students.

This is not the same as a teacher who is attempting to professionally develop into the best teacher they possibly can be.