articles in WCI magazine...

[LFJ]

Yea, but high % moves are also not subjective. Sure, you might break the knee but how easy is it to hit that?

Knee stomps are high percentage and easy to hit. Did you not see the Jon Jones video? He did it all the time.

Line a bunch of your friends up according to height, and interestingly you'll find despite the range in heights, their knees will be roughly at the same height, excluding obvious extremes.

It's not hard to train to hit the knee with precision, especially on weighted lead-leg fighters with no awareness of leg kicks, like boxers who don't cross train.

Now, I didn't say it will break the knee, though possible, but hyperextension can easily cause lasting injury, and absolutely take someone out of a fight or at least hinder their mobility and therefore effectiveness against you.

 

[Martial D]

They actually are crippling fight enders when applied correctly. One day at work I was trying to kick to the common peroneal and hit the knee instead. I had to write my UoF memo in A LOT more detail than usual because the suspect required surgery. Even when it isn't that catastrophic it can easily make the opponent less effective in combat because you undermine their foundation, even if the long term result is simply ice, Aleve and bed rest.

I didn't say low kicks aren't useful, they are very good for keeping over agressive opponents at arm's length, and they hurt like Hades to be on the wrong end of.

Yet, if that is your go to long range weapon you're probably in for a long...or very short..night..if you expect anyone to fold under it. This is from the squared off/both men ready perspective.

Now if the other guy isn't ready, and is not in any kind of fighting stance, sure..it can be an effective ambush from the blind side I guess.

 

[Steve]

@LFJ beat me to some of the videos, especially the Jones one. Here is another.

.

Now you see what it can do from the front in terms of hyperextension. The thing is the knee is designed to take an amount of stress in the direction and it can still mess you up. Now apply that same force from the side, which the knee is not designed to deal with. It works definitely when used properly, why? Biomechanics. All of our joints are designed to only bend one way or another.

What I especially loved in the video I linked was that even in the face of "no one uses WC techniques in MMA what did the one fight commentator say "that's a Wing Chun technique."

Genuine question. I have read many times that WC is a "system" not a group of techniques. If Jon Jones doesn't train WC, can this actually be viewed as validating WC, even if the technique is familiar? (I hope that makes sense).

 

[Juany118]

Genuine question. I have read many times that WC is a "system" not a group of techniques. If Jon Jones doesn't train WC, can this actually be viewed as validating WC, even if the technique is familiar? (I hope that makes sense).

I think the statement simply indicates the origin or where it is most prevelantly used. Wing Chun is taught as a system, but simply because that is the case doesn't mean you can't take individual techniques that form the system and then apply them to other fighting methods.

 

[LFJ]

Yet, if that is your go to long range weapon you're probably in for a long...or very short..night..if you expect anyone to fold under it.

No one said it's a "go-to finisher", though it is an example of something that can certainly end a fight from long range without needing to close in. It's one of a number of things.

I said it is used to very good effect in keeping the opponent at bay to manage distance on the outside, as you just agreed is very good.

That's part of long-range VT, conducting the fight from long range with VT, as the original post I linked to was describing.

For some reason you threw out the whole point of the post, and of that kick, to cherrypick the statement that it can end a fight and strawman it into an unrealistic "go-to finisher".

Obvious troll.

 

[LFJ]

Genuine question. I have read many times that WC is a "system" not a group of techniques. If Jon Jones doesn't train WC, can this actually be viewed as validating WC, even if the technique is familiar? (I hope that makes sense).

It validates the usefulness of the kick which is used in VT.

 

[Steve]

It validates the usefulness of the kick which is used in VT.

Okay. So youre not saying that Jones is doing WC. got it.

 

[LFJ]

Okay. So youre not saying that Jones is doing WC. got it.

Just like someone who ducks a kick is not doing boxing or copying it.

I learned the oblique kick in other TCMAs as a kid before I ever came to VT.

I don't know where Jones got it.

 

[Steve]

Just like someone who ducks a kick is not doing boxing or copying it.

I learned the oblique kick in other TCMAs as a kid before I ever came to VT.

I don't know where Jones got it.

So, it would be correct to say that this is an example of a technique being used effectively, which would indicate that similar techniques in WC can work (i.e., the biomechanics are sound and there is evidence it can be used effectively in a fight). But this isn't an example of WC being used in MMA. Maybe, but that would really depend on the individual having trained in the system of WC.

Do I have that right?

Just to clarify, I want to make sure I get what you guys mean. I don't have a stake in this either way. Just trying to track the discussion.

 

[LFJ]

So, it would be correct to say that this is an example of a technique being used effectively, which would indicate that similar techniques in WC can work (i.e., the biomechanics are sound and there is evidence it can be used effectively in a fight). But this isn't an example of WC being used in MMA. Maybe, but that would really depend on the individual having trained in the system of WC.

Do I have that right?

Yes.

If Jones learned it from VT and uses it, you could say he's using "a VT kick".

Otherwise, he's using "a kick that is used in VT", and it obviously works.

 

[karatejj]

Knee stomps are high percentage and easy to hit. Did you not see the Jon Jones video? He did it all the time.

Line a bunch of your friends up according to height, and interestingly you'll find despite the range in heights, their knees will be roughly at the same height, excluding obvious extremes.

It's not hard to train to hit the knee with precision, especially on weighted lead-leg fighters with no awareness of leg kicks, like boxers who don't cross train.

Now, I didn't say it will break the knee, though possible, but hyperextension can easily cause lasting injury, and absolutely take someone out of a fight or at least hinder their mobility and therefore effectiveness against you.

So your argument is that because the knee is at approx the same height on all people, it is easy too hit? Umm right..knee is a tiny moving target. Good luck with that!

 

[KPM]

Yes.

If Jones learned it from VT and uses it, you could say he's using "a VT kick".

Otherwise, he's using "a kick that is used in VT", and it obviously works.

Body leaned back with torso in a direct line with the direction of the kick....that's a straight up Savate kick.

 

[Juany118]

So your argument is that because the knee is at approx the same height on all people, it is easy too hit? Umm right..knee is a tiny moving target. Good luck with that!

Well first the knee is no smaller than hitting the nose and surrounding cheek bones and that happens all the time. Second you don't have to hit the knee directly to have the effect. Hitting just above or below the knee can still cause hyperextension.

 

[LFJ]

So your argument is that because the knee is at approx the same height on all people, it is easy too hit? Umm right..knee is a tiny moving target. Good luck with that!

What Juany said...

It doesn't move around as erratically as a head, but you don't scoff and say good luck punching someone in the face... and Jones makes a pretty good habit of kicking it just fine.

Body leaned back with torso in a direct line with the direction of the kick....that's a straight up Savate kick.

You could say it's a kick in many styles, including VT. Point is, it works and is part of long-range VT.

 

[karatejj]

What Juany said...

It doesn't move around as erratically as a head, but you don't scoff and say good luck punching someone in the face... and Jones makes a pretty good habit of kicking it just fine.

Ever tried drinking a glass of water using your feet? Bit different compared to what your hands can do. Good luck with that

 

[LFJ]

Ever tried drinking a glass of water using your feet? Bit different compared to what your hands can do. Good luck with that

No, but I've kicked people in the knee...

 

[karatejj]

No, but I've kicked people in the knee...

Punching them in the face much easier!

 

[Juany118]

Punching them in the face much easier!

Its all a matter of
A. How much you practice.
B. How hard the target is to hit.

The knee, while it moves is actually easier to hit than the face, especially if you are using the kick the way you see in the video. Someone is either moving in on you and you want to maintain distance (little lateral movement of the target) or the leg is planted while a punch is thrown.

In either case the knee, if you actually train such a kick, can be as easy, if not easier, than punching someone in the face.

 

[Martial D]

No one said it's a "go-to finisher", though it is an example of something that can certainly end a fight from long range without needing to close in. It's one of a number of things.

I said it is used to very good effect in keeping the opponent at bay to manage distance on the outside, as you just agreed is very good.

That's part of long-range VT, conducting the fight from long range with VT, as the original post I linked to was describing.

For some reason you threw out the whole point of the post, and of that kick, to cherrypick the statement that it can end a fight and strawman it into an unrealistic "go-to finisher".

Obvious troll.

Well, as the conversation started as a question about this phantom long range wc, and you showed me that, what other conclusion am I left with? It seems strange to use something as a tool to keep someone at range when you don't have anything but that at range. Whatever floats your boat I guess.

As an aside I see you don't know what trolling means. Trolling is simply fishing for responses. Trolling is not addressing points and offering rejoinders. Just because you don't understand or don't agree with something that is posted does not make it trolling, so save it. If anything, your constant accusations of trolling are the real trolling.

 

[Juany118]

Well, as the conversation started as a question about this phantom long range wc, and you showed me that, what other conclusion am I left with? It seems strange to use something as a tool to keep someone at range when you don't have anything but that at range. Whatever floats your boat I guess.

As an aside I see you don't know what trolling means. Trolling is simply fishing for responses. Trolling is not addressing points and offering rejoinders. Just because you don't understand or don't agree with something that is posted does not make it trolling, so save it. If anything, your constant accusations of trolling are the real trolling.

But it is not phantom from the staart, even according to the OP. @KPM has acknowledged that the WC I study, "Traditional Wing Chun" has a long range game. So out of the gate, whether others "like" my WC or not, the OP acknowledges it has a long range game. He has even called it "long fist" WC. We now have @LFJ showing what I knew from my novice level study of it years ago, that WSLVT, he studies under the Philipp Bayer line and I under the Gary Lam, also has a long range game. @LFJ even showed a video of it. LFJ and I have had some serious knock down drag out fights over the last year but even I have to agree with, and support, him on this.

Here is the problem, there is no "monolithic" Wing Chun. You have any number of Main Land Lineages and then you have however many claim YM. Off the top of my head I can think of the Yips, my TWC via GM William Cheung, the various WSL variations (Philipp Bayer, Gary Lam, and David Petersen to name only three), Hawkings Cheung and Leung Ting. I am sure there are others but all of these have differences, some major and some minor so to say anything is a phantom in WC is wrong. Some have a long range game and others do not. Some have chin na/grappling, others do not.