Are you religious yes? No?

[Cirdan]

(snip)
However it's not a lot of different for the non religious, they follow their ideological leaders in the same way, the massacres of intellectuals in Cambodia and China show this, the USSR was officially atheist being communist and acted in exactly the same way so the conclusion is really that it's human nature to behave in this way, it's also human behaviour however to be able to think about what you do and to change how you are and what you believe. There are always good people whether they are religious or not, we just need more of them. Religious and atheists can live together perfectly well, it needs people to take responsibility for their own actions, something that is the basis of some religions and should be the basis of all peoples thoughts.

No it is not human nature to behave in that way, not for beings with a shred of self respect and desire for the respect of others. It is the nature of those giving up too much of their selves in following superbeings, in some cases human ones yes but those do not have the staying power of mythical ones.

Yes we need good people, good people who will acknowledge the problems rather than sweeping them under the carpet. One of those problems is that subjugation of women is central to some religions and helps perpetuate horrible practices such as the gential mutilation of children.

Of course we can all live happily in the political correct land of sunshine and butterflies where everyone is nice and all. Keep using that broom, I am frankly disappointed.

 

[Tez3]

No it is not human nature to behave in that way, not for beings with a shred of self respect and desire for the respect of others. It is the nature of those giving up too much of their selves in following superbeings, in some cases human ones yes but those do not have the staying power of mythical ones.

Yes we need good people, good people who will acknowledge the problems rather than sweeping them under the carpet. One of those problems is that subjugation of women is central to some religions and helps perpetuate horrible practices such as the gential mutilation of children.

Of course we can all live happily in the political correct land of sunshine and butterflies where everyone is nice and all. Keep using that broom, I am frankly disappointed.

I think you are reading into my words things that aren't there perhaps though I may have just seen the more horrible side of human beings. After investigating the things I have ie in the Balkans, Afghanistan etc I don't have a high opinion of people's good nature and any capacity they have to be actually 'nice'. I would still say though that the subjugation of women isn't actually the tenets of many religions rather than the custom of the community, certain tribes in Afghan have always kept women in what amounts for slavery even long before they became Muslims.
It is rather people's interpretation of their religious tracts that has some women in chains and others free, it's down to people again.
As for using that broom, I'm not a witch, Wiccan isn't my religion.

 

[Cirdan]

I think you are reading into my words things that aren't there perhaps though I may have just seen the more horrible side of human beings. After investigating the things I have ie in the Balkans, Afghanistan etc I don't have a high opinion of people's good nature and any capacity they have to be actually 'nice'. I would still say though that the subjugation of women isn't actually the tenets of many religions rather than the custom of the community, certain tribes in Afghan have always kept women in what amounts for slavery even long before they became Muslims.
It is rather people's interpretation of their religious tracts that has some women in chains and others free, it's down to people again.
As for using that broom, I'm not a witch, Wiccan isn't my religion.

Of course it is down to people, people wrote the texts to begin with. Well maybe monkeys with typewriters came up with some of them but mostly people created the myths. Who else would it be?

And with people`s willingness to give up decition making when frightened into doing so (white hot hellfire awaits!), religion became an invaluable tool being able to claim absolute authority and morality. Naturally such charming practices treating women as second class citizens or even slaves (not to mention genital mutilation) would be asimilated into the religious control mechanisms.

Speaking about cynicism, I often feel like Dilbert

 

[Steve]

Yes I do think through my opinions. But frankly I could not careless what you believe about me. This is a forum and the faceless at the ready. I will say that you are indeed correct about religion being a human condition, but my point was, or at least this particular one, that religion is a populace mechanism of control. I did not want to state that out of respect to the devout members on this forum.

I don't think I understand what you're saying at all. Now you seem to be agreeing with me, but very angrily.

Religion is a human condition. I'm glad we agree. But I think we also agree with the whole "opiate of the masses" aspect of it. Really, the "opiate of the masses" piece is taken advantage of precisely BECAUSE religion is a fundamental part of the human condition. It is hard coded in our dna to desire to be a part of something larger and to believe that there are beings greater than ourselves providing structure and support for our lives. Were it not, it would be much more difficult for persuasive people to take advantage of it in the manner you've mentioned in your post.

 

[Transk53]

I don't think I understand what you're saying at all. Now you seem to be agreeing with me, but very angrily.

Religion is a human condition. I'm glad we agree. But I think we also agree with the whole "opiate of the masses" aspect of it. Really, the "opiate of the masses" piece is taken advantage of precisely BECAUSE religion is a fundamental part of the human condition. It is hard coded in our dna to desire to be a part of something larger and to believe that there are beings greater than ourselves providing structure and support for our lives. Were it not, it would be much more difficult for persuasive people to take advantage of it in the manner you've mentioned in your post.

Angry... Seriously! Okay, have a nice day lol

 

[Steve]

Angry... Seriously! Okay, have a nice day lol

Or maybe not.

 

[Transk53]

Or maybe not.

No I was agreeing with because I missed the perspective that you had highlighted. Hence why I had to agree with you on the religious aspect being a human condition. I have to concede that religion as a whole is not one of strong points to discuss. perhaps if I had lead an ascetic life, so many other aspects of my life, including religion, may well have been more deeper in understanding to me. I still find the discussions quite interesting, but hovers to a certain point that does not go further.

 

[Tez3]

No I was agreeing with because I missed the perspective that you had highlighted. Hence why I had to agree with you on the religious aspect being a human condition. I have to concede that religion as a whole is not one of strong points to discuss. perhaps if I had lead an ascetic life, so many other aspects of my life, including religion, may well have been more deeper in understanding to me. I still find the discussions quite interesting, but hovers to a certain point that does not go further.

I wouldn't necessarily agree that religion is part of the human condition. There are some very interesting views around on both sides of the argument but I think it's a discussion that isn't much suitable for a forum like this as it's far more in depth than the sound bite type of answers we tend to give here. It would make a lively and interesting discussion sat in the pub with pints in hand or in a formal debate. Here though it would turn into a bun fight as some got over emotionally invested in what they see as others 'wrongness'.

 

[Transk53]

I wouldn't necessarily agree that religion is part of the human condition. There are some very interesting views around on both sides of the argument but I think it's a discussion that isn't much suitable for a forum like this as it's far more in depth than the sound bite type of answers we tend to give here. It would make a lively and interesting discussion sat in the pub with pints in hand or in a formal debate. Here though it would turn into a bun fight as some got over emotionally invested in what they see as others 'wrongness'.

Quite. I have upset quite a few people simply because I do not subscribe to established viewpoints. I do not have the capacity to blindly believe what I am told and do what I am told. Rather than risk the ire of others, I simply say that I have accused of being Vulcan on a few occasions. Perhaps my head is mired in the stars. I would rather be called a lunatic than be subservient to a belief system that I truly do not believe in, but if it occurs, to the detriment of myself only. Not another life etc.

 

[Tez3]

Quite. I have upset quite a few people simply because I do not subscribe to established viewpoints. I do not have the capacity to blindly believe what I am told and do what I am told. Rather than risk the ire of others, I simply say that I have accused of being Vulcan on a few occasions. Perhaps my head is mired in the stars. I would rather be called a lunatic than be subservient to a belief system that I truly do not believe in, but if it occurs, to the detriment of myself only. Not another life etc.

I think you should believe in what you want to believe in, whatever it is as long as it harms no one, I think too that people should understand that a lot of people have asked question about the whys and wherefores of life and come up with different answers. One should look inside one's self and see what your beliefs are. I think too that if one subscribes to a religion that's fine, it's fine too to not subscribe to any religion, you must stay true to what you believe though. People should not try to convert others, they should remain silent on the 'benefits' or whatever of their beliefs rather than try to convert. To discuss ideas is good but not to convert, if your life with your beliefs is so good people would join you without you converting them. To get angry because someone disagrees with you is wrong, who knows perhaps every single one of us is wrong. However every single one of us could be right as perhaps our beliefs are correct for us as individuals.

 

[Transk53]

I think you should believe in what you want to believe in, whatever it is as long as it harms no one, I think too that people should understand that a lot of people have asked question about the whys and wherefores of life and come up with different answers. One should look inside one's self and see what your beliefs are. I think too that if one subscribes to a religion that's fine, it's fine too to not subscribe to any religion, you must stay true to what you believe though. People should not try to convert others, they should remain silent on the 'benefits' or whatever of their beliefs rather than try to convert. To discuss ideas is good but not to convert, if your life with your beliefs is so good people would join you without you converting them. To get angry because someone disagrees with you is wrong, who knows perhaps every single one of us is wrong. However every single one of us could be right as perhaps our beliefs are correct for us as individuals.

Agree. Now back to Tron 2

 

[Grenadier]

Administrator's note:

Thread closed, pending staff review.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Administrator