Personal beliefs and who you train / train with?

[Thesemindz]

Is there an acceptable point where it is ok to turn someone away for there personal political, religious, or lifestyle choices?

Well, let me start by saying that I believe in unrestricted free market capitalism, including the right of a business owner to refuse to serve anyone for any reason at all. Even reasons which many would find offensive, such as race, religion, or sexual orientation. Not because I'm a bigot, but because I feel people have a right to be bigots, and then the rest of us should judge them for being bigots. If someone says, "I don't want purple people shopping at my store," he should have that right, and then the rest of us should go to his competitor and refuse to support his business because he's a bigot. The government shouldn't force him to be nice, public censure and market pressures can do that. I think when the government punishes people for being bigotted scumbags we force people to hide their true feelings. I'd rather know who the jerks and idiots are up front, and then we can all judge them and avoid them.

That being said, I don't have a specific list of dos and don'ts. I trained with people who had a good attitude. I trained with ex cons, drug users, christians, buddhists, atheists, homosexuals, the physically and mentally handicapped, government employees, men, women, and children. If someone is there to improve themself and interested in learning, I'm interested in training with them. If someone is interested in hurting people or starting trouble, I'm interested in their departure.


-Rob

 

[Last Fearner]

Geez... what would you consider "homosexual behaviour?" (Assuming ppl arn't having sex or foreplay right in front of you!) A hug between 2 ppl of the same sex? (Can straights get away with that at yr dojo?) What about partner's dropping off or picking up students - t-shirts, bumper stickers etc? What about tattoos of stuff like rainbow flags? A female with a shaved head? etc etc.

Just wondering.

These are very good questions. Since the original question was about if and when it is ok to refuse training, my answer is not so much about exactly what criteria I use, but simply the fact that I have the option at my discretion. Personally, I don't believe in discriminating against physical traits that a person can not change. If every business owner did that, these people would not be able to enjoy a free and happy existence in this country (USA). Such things as a persons race, skin color, height, birth defects, etc. are things they can not change and should not be refused equal opportunities because of them.

I believe in freedom of religion, but this is a choice, and needs no outward expression to be free to believe what you want. Places for openly practicing different religions are made available in society, but need not be exercised in the Dojang. I don't usually take issue with some expression of religion in my Dojang, but the fact that I am a Christian, and I do incorporate compatible lessons in the teaching of my Martial Art classes, I might restrict conflicting expressions by people of other faiths. I absolutely will not allow any expressions, symbols, or conversations in support of satanic worship. If I choose to accept a student who has such beliefs, my focus would be on convincing them that this is wrong (in my opinion), but I would not permit open expression of devil worship in or around my Dojang (this includes jewelry, tatoos, t-shirts, bumper stickers, etc.).

Homo-sexuality is addressed in a similar fashion. What someone does on their own is their own business, but once they reach the Dojang property, I will require adjustments in topics of discussion, open displays of affection between same sex partners, or any clothing, jewelry, signs, etc., which promote such behavior. Shaved heads, or generic symbols which could be interpreted to represent homo-sexuality are not a problem.

While I'm not going to debate the legitimacy of homo-sexuality or people's rights to be homosexual, I do personally disagree with it, and will choose if and when such discussions, symbols, and displays are inappropriate at my Dojang. "Straight" couples are a natural union for the purposes of reproduction, and whose purpose and affection is understood and accepted by other heterosexual people (again, not here to debate it, just stating my personal viewpoints).

Shaking hands, and hugging are acceptable forms of greeting and friendship by anyone. Holding hands, caressing, and kissing are more intimate. I allow a respectful amount of such display between heterosexual couples at the Dojang, but excessive displays are not permitted. Such intimate displays between same sex partners are not permitted at all. Each issue and action is decided by me, at my sole discretion.

If someone is there to improve themself and interested in learning, I'm interested in training with them. If someone is interested in hurting people or starting trouble, I'm interested in their departure.

-Rob

This is well said, Rob, and I agree with you (for the most part). I have additional rules of behavior which address things that I feel are disruptive to the learning environment, but mostly, I am concerned with the attitude of the individual. I will not refuse a trouble maker from the start, as I look for the opportunity to change them into a better person. They might spend many years doing discipline training and not learning much in the way of fighting skills, or they might quit, but as long as they are there, I will work on them.

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Carol]

LF, you have me curious as you've voiced some of the strongest beliefs out of everyone here.

Do you let potential students/parents know of your views before signing them to your school? If you do...given that they touch on some awkward subjects, how do you bring up the subject in conversation?

Or if you don't let folks folks know beforehand, why not, since they seem like a strong passion?

I'm just curious. Keep in mind this is curiosity from someone that has never run a school

 

[Xue Sheng]

There is a thread in the Japanese arts section regarding the supposed practice of a Koryo instructor not to train people with Tatoo's.

Whether or not this is true aside, at what point should martial arts instructors be able to pick and choose who they train? Obviously being a private club they could basically do whatever they like, but putting that aside. I don't have a tatoo, but at the same time I wouldn't train under someone with a rule like that on principle.

But what, if anything, would you consider acceptable exclusion based on personal beliefs?

ex-cons?

Muslims? Fundamentalist Muslims?

Christians? Fundamentalist Christians?

Atheists?

Satanists? Scientologiests?

Communists? Fascists?

Hippies? Homosexuals?

Tattoos? Piercings? Well, piercing I can understand as a safety issue, take them out or don't train, if they don't come out and can't be secured, some systems are a safety risk, same for long nails.

Is there an acceptable point where it is ok to turn someone away for there personal political, religious, or lifestyle choices?

Martial arts instructors have been picking and choosing who they train for a very very long time, at least in China. They could decide not to teach you bases on their belief your body type did not fit the style if they wanted and you either tried your best to prove him wrong (Which may or may not work) or you moved on to another sifu. Chances are in old China if I wanted to train Wing Chun I would be told no but if I wanted to train Xingyi I would have a better chance. Of course this is assuming I was Chinese. If I were American, no one would have trained me. In my opinion it is the sifu's prerogative to teach whomever he wants to teach. I don't necessarily agree with the practice, but it is his style, his class and his decision. To be honest I have trained with a few people over the years that if it were up to me I would have kicked them out of class. But this was based on either complete lack of seriousness (and not training) or over aggressiveness (which continued after multiple warnings) on the part of the students in question. Is it ok to not teach someone because they are;

Overly violent? Not serious?

Refuse to actually train?

Have been convicted of a violent crime?

Convicted sex offenders?

My Sanda sifu is incredibly picky as to whom he will teach and as far as I am concerned that is his prerogative. He will teach no one sanda if he feels they will use it for negative things and if at any point during training with him if you do say go out and start getting in fights to beat people up or test your skill, he WILL stop training you. However I do not think he cares about tattoos.

Also I have not read the post which spawned this one about the Koryo instructors not teaching the tattooed. Could this have anything to do with not wanting to teach members of the Japanese Mafia? They are heavily tattooed and could this not teaching the tattooed come from this?

 

[qi-tah]

These are very good questions.

Why thank you kindly

Shaved heads, or generic symbols which could be interpreted to represent homo-sexuality are not a problem.

So it's kind of like a "don't ask, don't tell" policy, hey? So what about issues regarding bullying or name calling based on sexual orientation? As a frequent user of public transport, i often hear teenage boys (sometimes up to age of 40! :shrug indescriminantly using words like "******" etc as perjorative terms. If you are gay and in the closet, it's a horrible thing to hear and know that such language refers to you, but not feel able to stand up and defend yourself. Is such language permissable in your dojo?

"Straight" couples are a natural union for the purposes of reproduction, and whose purpose and affection is understood and accepted by other heterosexual people (again, not here to debate it, just stating my personal viewpoints).

If you are just stating yr personal point of view, then it is usually customary to preface your statement with something along the lines of "I believe that...", otherwise you do run the risk of offending others.

We all bleed the same colour LF, regardless of our differences, and i believe that we are all deserving of respect, whether in the dojo or not.

 

[qi-tah]

Oops, i didn't realise that word wouldn't come out the other side of the language censor thingie! Still, i'm sure you get the gist... just think of any unkind thing to call a gay person.

 

[Carol]

Oops, i didn't realise that word wouldn't come out the other side of the language censor thingie! Still, i'm sure you get the gist... just think of any unkind thing to call a gay person.

qi-tah, you did exactly what we (as MT moderators) want you to do. Just type the word out that you think fits. If its not an acceptable word, the filter will kick in and no harm done.

 

[qi-tah]

qi-tah, you did exactly what we (as MT moderators) want you to do. Just type the word out that you think fits. If its not an acceptable word, the filter will kick in and no harm done.

Thanks Carol.

 

[Bill Bednarick]

Personally I don't feel any displays of affection are appropriate in a training hall. Hetro, Homo, try-curious, or whatever has no place in training.

Not out of some sense of PC fairness but out of a sense of focus on the task at hand.

This is martial arts training not speed dating, keep your hormones in check.

As far as training "bad people"?

Most criminals will probably get a weapon before they waste their time with training.

Done the crime, and the time? Well maybe, if I trust you. There are alot of people that are crooks, some never get convicted of anything yet they steal and cheat everyone they meet. Sorry no trust, no training.

Rage freaks and angry people? Maybe, depends on the person. Again it's a trust issue. No trust no training.

Sex offenders? Hmmm... well they will probably need to learn to fight if they end up doing time but I'm not training them. I don't trust them so... no training.

Religious Fundamentalists of various kinds? Again, no trust, no training.

Tattoo'd and pierced? Don't care, take out the metal before it gets ripped out in class. No rings either, they get caught on stuff.

I guess with me it's all about trust.

It's easy enough to ask someone if they would agree to a background check if you get a bad feeling about them. Doesn't mean you have to check, but the answer they give could be all you need to decide from.

 

[Laurentkd]

This is well said, Rob, and I agree with you (for the most part). I have additional rules of behavior which address things that I feel are disruptive to the learning environment, but mostly, I am concerned with the attitude of the individual. I will not refuse a trouble maker from the start, as I look for the opportunity to change them into a better person. They might spend many years doing discipline training and not learning much in the way of fighting skills, or they might quit, but as long as they are there, I will work on them.

CM D.J. Eisenhart

I don't want to pull the thread off track, but what do you mean by discipline training?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I remember in the last year or so I had a prospective student come and check out the Training Hall. As we were talking I started to get some bad vibes from him and I quickly directed the conversation to talking about the law enforcement officers that train with us. Next thing you know he was gone in a flash.

I like to train with good people who are genuinely interested in what I am teaching. If someone meets those requirements then they can train. If not then they can train somewhere else.

 

[Bill Bednarick]

I remember in the last year or so I had a prospective student come and check out the Training Hall. As we were talking I started to get some bad vibes from him and I quickly directed the conversation to talking about the law enforcement officers that train with us. Next thing you know he was gone in a flash.

LOL!

He should have thought cool I will be on good terms with some of the local
officers.

No trust, no training.

 

[DavidCC]

at what point should martial arts instructors be able to pick and choose who they train?
...
But what, if anything, would you consider acceptable exclusion based on personal beliefs?

Ask the question in reverse and the absurdity of it beceoms clear:

should MA instructors be prevented from choosing who they train?
should there be any acceptable exclusions?

Under no circumstances should any teacher be forced to teach someone that they don't want to teach, for whatever reason the teacher has. Like every other choice, it will have consequences, good and bad.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I remember in the last year or so I had a prospective student come and check out the Training Hall. As we were talking I started to get some bad vibes from him and I quickly directed the conversation to talking about the law enforcement officers that train with us. Next thing you know he was gone in a flash.

I like to train with good people who are genuinely interested in what I am teaching. If someone meets those requirements then they can train. If not then they can train somewhere else.

My first sifu got bad vibes from someone who wanted to train with him and let the guy train anyway. This guy later (about a month) broke in and stole all of his weapons. Good call brian

 

[Last Fearner]

LF, you have me curious as you've voiced some of the strongest beliefs out of everyone here.

Do you let potential students/parents know of your views before signing them to your school? If you do...given that they touch on some awkward subjects, how do you bring up the subject in conversation?

Hi Carol! Admittedly, my beliefs are strong and passionate. I figure that if it is important to me and my personal faith, I need to stand up for what I believe while trying not be cruel to others. Obviously, two people's freedoms and rights can conflict with each other, and sometimes not co-exist (we can not stand in the same spot, or walk the same path in opposite directions without someone, or both, giving up some freedom).

I do let potential students know the rules before joining, and I have a full page, line by line, description of rules, regulations, and legal requirements that new students (or parents) read and initial each line. There are too many variables to cover everything, but it is made clear that the instructor's rules, written or verbal, are to be followed, and no conflict of religion, or personal beliefs, etc., shall supersede the rules of the Dojang.

If an awkward subject needs to be addressed, the way I handle it is in private conversation in my office. I politely explain that personal beliefs, or lifestyles might conflict between other students or with my staff of instructors. I let the student know what my viewpoint is, and why I want the particular subject or activity to remain outside of the training environment. I always encourage them to privately voice any concerns they have by speaking with me in my office so as to avoid complaints and negative talk floating around the Dojang (which is also against the rules).

I do my best to show respect to the individual, and express that different lifestyles are not always acceptable by everyone. Therefore, within my place of business, the behavior that I am comfortable with is what is allowed, and everything else should be kept out of the Dojang.


CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Last Fearner]

So it's kind of like a "don't ask, don't tell" policy, hey?

Pretty much. Although, I am not opposed to the student telling me the truth. In fact, I would rather hear about it from them (if they are comfortable being out - either way, I keep all conferences confidential). Knowing about it might help me to identify problems if other students become aware or are being cruel or insensitive. If a gay student is showing signs of stress, I might have a better insight as to why if I already know what they could be experiencing in the way of harassment.

So what about issues regarding bullying or name calling based on sexual orientation?

Not permitted in my Dojang, or in my presence wherever I am. I will voice my objection to anyone who is cruel, abusive, or bullies anyone for whatever reason.

If you are gay and in the closet, it's a horrible thing to hear and know that such language refers to you, but not feel able to stand up and defend yourself. Is such language permissable in your dojo?

Absolutely not!

If you are just stating yr personal point of view, then it is usually customary to preface your statement with something along the lines of "I believe that...", otherwise you do run the risk of offending others.

You are correct. I should state that these are my personal points of view, however sometimes I feel it is redundant if I believe it is clear, rather than having to repeat that in each sentence. However, this particular statement was to something that I believe goes beyond opinion, and personal choice or lifestyle.

Nature dictates (thus far) that reproduction is accomplished through interaction of a male and a female. Thus, the marriage, or union for that purpose is a natural one, and (as I stated) Heterosexual people tend to openly accept these relationships because of their necessary existence for survival of the species in nature. Other reasons for unions between male to female exist, as well as for same-sex, but I was only noting the acceptance of heterosexual because of nature's laws which is outside of any personal opinion as far as I can determine.

We all bleed the same colour LF, regardless of our differences, and i believe that we are all deserving of respect, whether in the dojo or not.

Yes we all do bleed the same color, and so long as no one is bleeding in the Dojang, I have no problem with what color their blood is. I do agree with you that all are deserving of respect, and I try to enforce my rules, based on by personal beliefs, without disrespecting anyone. However, some my become offended anyhow.

There is an issue that has not been addressed. Speaking of bleeding, there are always concerns of close contact in the Martial Art with blood issues, infections and diseases. Now, it is not that I would imply a direct connection between anyone who is homosexual and a virus such as AIDS, but the concern is there. Ignorant as it may be, many clients are hesitant to join an activity simply because of possible contamination, regardless of sexual orientation. Open displays of Homosexual lifestyle will undoubtedly raise concerns that I can not prevent, and students might quit, or not join. It is easy for some to dismiss this as "their loss," and let them go, but businesses do not survive without customers.

I would say the same goes for a straight person who leads a promiscuous lifestyle or a known drug user. If they have such a reputation among the community, students and parents might not want to train with them, or have their children exposed to the risks. I would hold conferences with any student whose lifestyle might raise concerns or objections within a close, physical contact environment. The obvious difference is that homosexual partners can be as monogamous, and healthy as straight people (sometimes more-so), but it does not remove the concern, and objections based on personal differences over physical contact with a person who is gay.

I can see where this could get into a very heated discussion, and perhaps a bit too much off topic here, but there are strong beliefs on both sides.


CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Last Fearner]

I don't want to pull the thread off track, but what do you mean by discipline training?

Hi Lauren. I don't believe it is off track as this is one option to simply refusing to train someone who has an attitude problem, is not motivated, or misuses their fighting skills. By "discipline training," I mean that I would have the student remain a low rank (even suspending or reducing rank), and only participate in arduous exercises instead of learning more skills.

I would spend more time with drill sergeant like tactics to test their resolve, their respect under pressure, and to build their self-discipline. As they show signs of improvement, I reward with more personal attention, and learning new techniques. I also use regular conferences to discuss their behavior and progress. They might be required to vacuum the dojang, clean the bathrooms, help other students with various tasks, but will remain on probation until they change their attitude.

Ask the question in reverse and the absurdity of it beceoms clear:

should MA instructors be prevented from choosing who they train?
should there be any acceptable exclusions?

I like your reverse logic here, David! Very insightful, and quite revealing. It is difficult to imagine forcing someone to teach a student they did not want to teach (you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink). You can't force a person to learn, or do well in their studies, and you can't force a teacher to teach, or do it well if they don't want to.

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[jks9199]

There is an issue that has not been addressed. Speaking of bleeding, there are always concerns of close contact in the Martial Art with blood issues, infections and diseases. Now, it is not that I would imply a direct connection between anyone who is homosexual and a virus such as AIDS, but the concern is there. Ignorant as it may be, many clients are hesitant to join an activity simply because of possible contamination, regardless of sexual orientation. Open displays of Homosexual lifestyle will undoubtedly raise concerns that I can not prevent, and students might quit, or not join. It is easy for some to dismiss this as "their loss," and let them go, but businesses do not survive without customers.

Blood-borne pathogens is worthy of a thread all by itself, but it's important to realize that there are dangers in ANY body's blood. There's AIDS/HIV, hepatitis (in all it's forms), and lots more -- and exposure is only partly a factor of "lifestyle choices." I think it's a reasonable bet that most martial arts students won't be IV drug users, etc. -- but there are plenty of other ways to get exposed to many of these diseases.

 

[qi-tah]

Last Fearner;

Thank-you, I appreciate the time you have taken to answer my last post and am glad to hear that you do not tolerate name-calling or harassment in any of its many, ugly forms.

You are correct. I should state that these are my personal points of view, however sometimes I feel it is redundant if I believe it is clear, rather than having to repeat that in each sentence. However, this particular statement was to something that I believe goes beyond opinion, and personal choice or lifestyle.

Nature dictates (thus far) that reproduction is accomplished through interaction of a male and a female. Thus, the marriage, or union for that purpose is a natural one, and (as I stated) Heterosexual people tend to openly accept these relationships because of their necessary existence for survival of the species in nature. Other reasons for unions between male to female exist, as well as for same-sex, but I was only noting the acceptance of heterosexual because of nature's laws which is outside of any personal opinion as far as I can determine.

Sure (with qualifications to take in IVF etc), but reproduction as the natural order of things (ie. survival of the species) is a big numbers game, not something that i believe can be assigned "natural" or unnatural" on a personal basis. We had an interesting example recently in Australia where this old duffer Senetor Bill Heffernan got up and described the Labor IR spokeswoman Julia Gillard as "deliberately barren" (she chose not to have children). He was technically right, but was also terribly crude and offensive to Ms. Gillard. And when he went on to say that for this reason she was unfit to represent her constituency, his comments became indefensible on any level!

The other interesting thing about the whole nature thing is that homosexual behaviour is not confined to Homo sapiens, it occurs across many species. So in a way, it's just as natural as heterosexual behaviour.

There is an issue that has not been addressed. Speaking of bleeding, there are always concerns of close contact in the Martial Art with blood issues, infections and diseases. Now, it is not that I would imply a direct connection between anyone who is homosexual and a virus such as AIDS, but the concern is there. Ignorant as it may be, many clients are hesitant to join an activity simply because of possible contamination, regardless of sexual orientation. Open displays of Homosexual lifestyle will undoubtedly raise concerns that I can not prevent, and students might quit, or not join. It is easy for some to dismiss this as "their loss," and let them go, but businesses do not survive without customers.

I would say the same goes for a straight person who leads a promiscuous lifestyle or a known drug user. If they have such a reputation among the community, students and parents might not want to train with them, or have their children exposed to the risks. I would hold conferences with any student whose lifestyle might raise concerns or objections within a close, physical contact environment. The obvious difference is that homosexual partners can be as monogamous, and healthy as straight people (sometimes more-so), but it does not remove the concern, and objections based on personal differences over physical contact with a person who is gay.

Ah yes, the HIV thing. Actually, as far as HIV is concerned, it's incredibly hard to pass on the virus outside of intimate contact. There have been some cases of people who have contracted HIV through gay-bashing, but these cases generally involve large amounts of blood and damage, not yr average bloody nose at the dojo. In fact, i seem to recall a case several years ago in Australia where a gay, HIV positive man was barred from playing in his local Aussie rules football league for OHS reasons; he took them to court and successfully had the ban recinded. The court heard expert testimony to the effect that the chance of infection occuring as part of play was less than 1 in a million. I remember being quite interested as i was involved in HIV research myself at the time.

On to Hepititis - Hep C, although it is far more common than HIV in IV using populations (think bodybuilders - steroids, anyone?), is also very hard to contract outside of intimate contact.To be honest, it's Hep B that you really need to watch out for as it is so easily transmissible (faecal -oral route) and there is no cure for it. And i seem to recall reading that Hep B is on the rise worldwide these days. Really, anyone taking part in contact sport ought to be vaccinated against the virus.

I really do think that it is important to get this information to as wide an audience as possible - there is so much mis-information regarding how HIV and Hepititis can be transmitted and what the risk factors are. It's all just part of basic first-aid info.

I can see where this could get into a very heated discussion, and perhaps a bit too much off topic here, but there are strong beliefs on both sides.

Can i say amen to that?

Thank-you again Last Fearner. I have enjoyed this discussion very much.