Are We Knowingly Living a Lie?

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Stupidity is a complex topic but one thatā€™s really pertinent to this overall issue. Luckily for us Deitrich Bonhoeffer explained it really simply (so even stupid people can follow). I urge you to watch this 6 minute explanation to see what stupidity is and how to deal with it.

 
I'll simply say this (avoiding all debate on this divisive issue):

The people in charge (the wealthy billionaires who basically control the world and our politicians) want everyone else to take less, use less, and consume less, so that they can continue to grow the global population, add more customers, and have more money for themselves. (In a nutshell, that is what is happening.)

Look at it from the perspective of Elon Musk:
Do you sell more Teslas when the population is 8 billion people or 16 billion people?
But the responsibility is that of the consumer. Just because Apple puts a new phone in front of us making the previous version from 10 months ago ā€˜obsoleteā€™, it doesnā€™t mean we have to buy it. We should not be so manipulable that we consume it. But situational stupidity kicks in, we buy into the cool advertising with a frizzy-haired youth flipping his skateboard with a perfect smile while posting a picture of the kid in the sweat shop who glued the product together (so you canā€™t replace the throttled battery) and we have to queue outside the shop to be the first to have it.
They will do whatever it takes to squeeze more people in. More apartment buildings. Taller apartment buildings. Higher yield food (whatever feeds the most people in the least amount of space).
You know, some anthropomorphic climate change deniers suggest the rise in atmospheric CO2 is a good thing because it will increase crop yields (CO2 is required by plants in photosynthesis and hence growth) to feed an ever increasing population!
The only thing that can save the world is a reduced human population, back down to where it was a century ago.
You know, thatā€™s probably not enough to halt or reverse the negative impact weā€˜re having on the plane. The population would need to reduce (by natural attrition, I hasten to add) to a tenth of itā€™s current level (7.8billion to 780million).
Capping immigration,
Isnā€™t that redistributing the population rather than creating more of it to consume more?
having one child per family policies, etc. are easy and realistic ways to do this. But it will never happen. Shrinking the population would mean shrinking profits for big businesses, and that will never be allowed.
I dont understand why economies need to grow year-on-year. If they all become static wonā€™t that cure the issue of inflation etc, assuming the population levels become staticā€¦.there you goā€¦.population is the issueā€¦..
 
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I dont understand why economies need to grow year-on-year.
A difficult moral dilemma if the world together should reduce it's expenditures and wear and tear on the planet is the the unevenly distributed wealth in the world. Does the wealthy part have a moral right to keep this wealth, at the expense of denying others to develop up to our level?

Distribution of wealth - Wikipedia

Surely, nature will evolve into the future no matter what we do, nature also keeps evolving even without humans.
But as beeing ontop of the nutrition chain, we have choices to make that at least influences the future state.

So what seems to be like a reasonble thing to start with, before going back to middle ages, is to think about what is necessary and what is not. We waste alot of thing just because we can economically afford it. Some people understanding nothing else but money, and that is somewhat of a global disease I think.
 
I'm not an idiot. I may not be knowledgeable many things, but I'm no idiot.
I know youā€™re only kidding here for comic effect, but itā€™s a good opportunity to share this great little video so we can recognise those who actually are idiots. I think we are all susceptible to this kind of bias but recognising that fact is the first step.

 
The world doesn't need saving. It will save itself itself. Mother nature has always been able to adjust populations as needed.
This is the argument for culling populations to avoid suffering by starvation. Nature ā€˜allowsā€™ populations to increase until there are insufficient resources to sustain that population at that level and then the surplus starves to death ā€˜stabilisingā€™ the population. Is that the hideous way we wish the equilibrium to be achieved?
According to Source: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/WLD/world/birth-rate the global birthrate per 1000 people has been consistently decreasing. The rate is low enough for the US and China to be concern about population growth.
You have to look at overall population, not regional changes. Certain third world countries/continents are having a population explosion.
According to Source: Charted: The Rapid Decline of Global Birth Rates Also shows the same thing.
This sounds somewhat like anthropomorphic climate change denier brigade. The consensus is that global population will increase to 10Billion by about 2050
The global death rate is on rise.
Disease, War, Limited Resources, and drastic climate change are all efficient ways in which the population of resources.
Not that efficient if weā€™ll reach 10 Billion in 26 years. Think about what youā€™re suggesting here, population limitation by disease, war, lack of water/food and climatic change. Shouldnā€™t we worry about that?
There are plenty of things that will decrease the population. There will be new things that will add to the to population decline in the near future. There's no need to worry about too many humans.
Iā€™m gobsmacked by your post, JowGaWolf!
Decreased population comes with its own set of problems. Fewer people doesn't mean that there will be fewer problems
There will be more resources for those peopleā€¦less suffering. Perhaps you could expand on this?
nor does it mean that things will be better.
I think it means exactly that.
If we were to move today's technology advances to 100 years in the past. There wouldn't be enough people to grow or maintain the tech.
That makes absolutely no sense. Please explain what you mean.
 
The learning curve and confidence vs knowledge AND that "people tend to trust confident speaker" is VERY true. This is real problem in alot of real world situations.

This is very clear also the less the audience know themselves, when listening to "experts" the often completely lack the ability of critical thinking and "consistency checking" and often more evalutes HOW you say things, rather than WHAT you say. It takes a certain knowledge to understand arguments at times. In particular when people that listen to HOW things are put, rather than judging critically content, are decisions makers. Then things can go very wrong!
 
The learning curve and confidence vs knowledge AND that "people tend to trust confident speaker" is VERY true. This is real problem in alot of real world situations.
And I think the ā€˜save the worldā€™ arena is a good example of this.
This is very clear also the less the audience know themselves, when listening to "experts" the often completely lack the ability of critical thinking and "consistency checking" and often more evalutes HOW you say things, rather than WHAT you say.
This is how ā€˜strong presentersā€™ in many field of world affairs lever themselves into position of power. Lectern thumpers, prophets of impending doom unless things go their way and the charming, witty types who can present themselves as a latter day Cincinnatus!
It takes a certain knowledge to understand arguments at times.
Thatā€™s true, but anyone can use a critical thinking process to see if a claim or idea is generally credible. Weeding out the unlikely is as important as identifying the most probable.

In particular when people that listen to HOW things are put, rather than judging critically content, are decisions makers. Then things can go very wrong!
We are all drawn to charismatic speakers, I mean, Iā€™m constantly chased by adoring women when I go to buy milk. Iā€™ve resorted to carrying a broomstick to poke them away. The trick, no, our duty is to identify if that charismatic presentation is coupled with solid knowledge.
 
We are all drawn to charismatic speakers, I mean, Iā€™m constantly chased by adoring women when I go to buy milk. Iā€™ve resorted to carrying a broomstick to poke them away. The trick, no, our duty is to identify if that charismatic presentation is coupled with solid knowledge.
To speak for myself, I tend to be MORE critical the more charismatic they are. As I feel something that is relying too much on polished rethorics is trying to make something sound alot better than it is. If someone is too charismatic or nice, they either want to sell you somehing or influence you. This often puts me off big time, but that's just me,

This is also in part cultural indeed as one of your video showed, and partly up to your personality. I am rejected when someone is overselling something. I want to be informed and make own decisions. I don't want to get impressed by other peoples emotional or rethorical appearance. It disturbs my analysis.

The personality traits matters, I know from own experience. I am mostly a blue personality type myself.
 
To speak for myself, I tend to be MORE critical the more charismatic they are. As I feel something that is relying too much on polished rethorics is trying to make something sound alot better than it is. If someone is too charismatic or nice, they either want to sell you somehing or influence you. This often puts me off big time, but that's just me,
I completely concur with you!
This is also in part cultural indeed as one of your video showed, and partly up to your personality. I am rejected when someone is overselling something. I want to be informed and make own decisions. I don't want to get impressed by other peoples emotional or rethorical appearance. It disturbs my analysis.
But weā€™re humans an still susceptible to ā€˜the sellā€™. Why else would companies spend $674 billion every year on glossy advertisements? It must work!
The personality traits matters, I know from own experience. I am mostly a blue personality type myself.
Youā€™re a physicist arenā€™t you? I think Iā€™m blue with yellow polka dots.
 
But weā€™re humans an still susceptible to ā€˜the sellā€™. Why else would companies spend $674 billion every year on glossy advertisements? It must work!
Yes it works, that is the problem, and not sure what to do about that.

But if I learned something, then i's to not assume everyone is like myself. Most people are not like me.

Youā€™re a physicist arenā€™t you?
Yes, but mostly interested in the nature of laws and the foundations of physics, rather than engineering applications. The explanatory and inference chain is what is interesting to me.
 
This is the argument for culling populations to avoid suffering by starvation. Nature ā€˜allowsā€™ populations to increase until there are insufficient resources to sustain that population at that level and then the surplus starves to death ā€˜stabilisingā€™ the population. Is that the hideous way we wish the equilibrium to be achieved?
I think nature does a better job at it than what humans are capable of. Humans don't have a true understanding of the bigger picture.and how things connect as a glibal eco system. Politics, hate, and destructive greed for power and money never factor in the bigger picture. China tried to manage the population and greatly failed at it. They are still trying to artificially manage their population and they will fail at that.

Humans can't control the population on the local city level. Any thing global is going to be a million times worse. The only comfort that I get from a natural disaster is that nature isn't influenced by power, greed, nor hate. The only requirement is to be in the right place at the worst time. We can't say the same with humans.

Humans always think they know what's best. Nature is always showing us that we don't.
 
I think nature does a better job at it than what humans are capable of.
Humans always think they know what's best. Nature is always showing us that we don't.
Humans are part of nature, just beacuse we are on the top of the chain doesn't mean we somehow are not part of nature. So whatever we or other decides to do, is part of nature. But such insight in itself should I think not be used as an excuse to not take responsibility for that our actions today influence the future.

I think that as part of nature we still have a choices and our actions affects the future. Unlike "actions" taken by simpler systems, without a complex brain, we have the ability to reflect over our decisions to a higher degree, with that comes a responsibility as well. Humans are part in forming the future for nature, where we are a part.

Sure, nothing is forever and our sun will eventually turn into a white dwarf. But there is still alot of freedom to form the intermediate happenings.
 
China tried to manage the population and greatly failed at it.
It didnā€™t.

They are still trying to artificially manage their population and they will fail at that.
How are they doing that? Why will it fail?
Humans can't control the population on the local city level.
Unsubstantiated. Tell us more. This is a discussion!
The only comfort that I get from a natural disaster is that nature isn't influenced by power, greed, nor hate.
You find comfort in that? JowGaWolf, youā€™re either very poor at expressing yourself or a rather twisted individual.
The only requirement is to be in the right place at the worst time. We can't say the same with humans.
I really donā€™t follow this. Please explain.
Humans always think they know what's best.
They know best? That explains it, youā€™re not a human but from the planet Zxtqjklp.
Nature is always showing us that we don't.
Hang on, so you are human?
 
I think nature does a better job at it than what humans are capable of. Humans don't have a true understanding of the bigger picture.and how things connect as a glibal eco system.
Are you aware of the famous case of the near extermination of the once great population of deer on the Kaibab in the 1920s? I studied this at school both in Colorado and Connecticut. Ironic since it actuallly occurred in my home state of Arizona.

Short version: Systematic elimination of predation allowed the already thriving deer and elk population to grow exponentially for a couple of decades.Then a really bad winter came along with unusually heavy snow and mass starvation ensued. Result: The deer population was reduced to near extinction, and even with human assistance it took decades for the deer herd to recover to a limited and sustainable level.
So my point is that the problem with waiting for nature to do the job is that "Nature" can be very harsh! ...Think Kali or perhaps Coatlicue.

Kali with a severed head and necklace of skulls:
images


Coatlicue, formed from serpents, skulls, and dismembered limbs:
images

On the other hand you could take the Aztec approach to sustaining the world. You know, engaging in "Flower Wars" to cull the population and provide plenty of tasty protein for the elites.

Personally, I prefer to find a middle ground. :)
 
I think nature does a better job.
This may be true if you are talking on a planetary scale and in a geologic time frame. Not so much if you care about the species Homo sapiens.
Humans don't have a true understanding of the bigger picture.and how things connect as a glibal eco system. Politics, hate, and destructive greed for power and money never factor in the bigger picture.
This is true. If we collectively try to intervene, we will screw things up. And, if we do nothing, we will screw things up.
Humans always think they know what's best. Nature is always showing us that we don't.
Nature doesn't care about "humanity". Maybe that's why the force we call "nature" has been been historically personified by very fierce and cruel deities (as shown in my previous post).

Here's another. Before the anthropomorphic gods of Olympus, the ancient Greeks posited the autochthonous Titans. That's raw nature for you. Goya painted a memorable version of the Titan Saturn Devouring his Children:

Francisco_de_Goya%2C_Saturno_devorando_a_su_hijo_%281819-1823%29.jpg

Do you really want "Nature" to get hungry?
 
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This may be true if you are talking on a planetary scale and in a geologic time frame. Not so much if you care about the species Homo sapiens.

This is true. If we collectively try to intervene, we will screw things up. And, if we do nothing, we will screw things up.

Nature doesn't care about "humanity". Maybe that's why the force we call "nature" has been been historically personified by very fierce and cruel deities (as shown in my previous post).

Here's another. Before the anthropomorphic gods of Olympus, the ancient Greeks posited the autochthonous Titans. That's raw nature for you. Goya painted a memorable version of the Titan Saturn Devouring his Children:

Francisco_de_Goya%2C_Saturno_devorando_a_su_hijo_%281819-1823%29.jpg

Do you really want "Nature" to get hungry?
(I love Goya and this painting)
 
You have to look at overall population, not regional changes. Certain third world countries/continents are having a population explosion.
Those areas are experiencing growth because they now have the resources to support the growth. Many of those countries are also smaller than Texas, USA.
This sounds somewhat like anthropomorphic climate change denier brigade. The consensus is that global population will increase to 10Billion by about 2050
A "Slow Population Growth" is the same as a decline. Even the UN's global population data shows a decline.

Not that efficient if weā€™ll reach 10 Billion in 26 years. Think about what youā€™re suggesting here, population limitation by disease, war, lack of water/food and climatic change. Shouldnā€™t we worry about that?
Worrying about climate change, water/food and climatic change is different from dealing with it. I'm not saying don't worry about it. I'm a person who strongly believes in balance. That 10 billion in 26 years is an estimate. Alot can happen within that time. COVID is still in play, War is still in play as well as drought. Lots of opportunities to change.

Iā€™m gobsmacked by your post, JowGaWolf!
I'm just a realist. There's a lot of stuff out there that can and often does kill people. Even when we try to reduce those risks, there are still many things that can and will trim the human population. People have been trying to live forever and live long and the same truth is that we die. No matter how we try to stop things like cancer and disease, we will still be at risk of dying from a new disease or a new cancer, or new war. The idea that we are concerned about the extinction of animals and plants should give some insight into how fragile population growth is. To assume that humans can't be on that same list would be a big mistake. There's no need to manage population from a macro perspective. There's more than enough stuff trimming the population as it is.

There will be more resources for those peopleā€¦less suffering. Perhaps you could expand on this?
More resources don't mean less suffering. They U.S. has more resources than most and we still suffer. We don't have war in the country, but we still have a high murder rate. We have enough resources in the US to end starvation in the U.S. but starvation still exists. We still have crime and grabs for land resources.
Humans are part of nature, just beacuse we are on the top of the chain doesn't mean we somehow are not part of nature. So whatever we or other decides to do, is part of nature. But such insight in itself should I think not be used as an excuse to not take responsibility for that our actions today influence the future.
This is where the confusion lies in what I'm saying. I'm not saying that we shouldn't take responsibility. I'm all for that. My job is to solve problems without causing additional problems and when I accidentally do that, I own up to it and I try to correct it.

I also include Humans as nature. No other animal on this planet does a better job in killing and people. But the idea of trying to reduce population for the sake of population is a big mistake. I would only support an idea like that if we fully understood the working pieces and how things fit into the bigger picture. People still throw away extra pieces from China has already tried population control with their "Only one child" policy. The result was worse than it would have been had they left things alone. Then Covid came along and reduced their population even more. Everything that they are doing now is to fix the issue that was caused by the one child policy.

It didnā€™t.
Studies say otherwise
"Even though China still has the largest population in the world, a report last month by the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, a leading government think tank, said officials were seriously overestimating the fertility rate.
Instead of suppressing it, the report said the government should try to lift it. More and more people in China, largely in urban areas, prefer to have fewer children."

Instead of suppressing it, the report said the government should try to lift it. More and more people in China, largely in urban areas, prefer to have fewer children."
2010 Source:

Negative effects of the One child Policy:
Chinaā€™s one-child policy, which was introduced in 1979 to control population growth, had several negative consequences 123:

  1. Gender imbalance: The policy led to a gender imbalance, with many families preferring male children over female children. This resulted in a rise in abortions of female fetuses, increases in the number of female children who were placed in orphanages or were abandoned, and even infanticide of baby girls 12.
  2. Elderly care: The policy led to a growing proportion of elderly people, the result of the concurrent drop in children born and rise in longevity since 1980. That became a concern, as the great majority of senior citizens in China relied on their children for support after they retired, and there were fewer children to support them 12.
  3. Undocumented children: Instances in which the births of subsequent children after the first went unreported or were hidden from authorities. Those children, most of whom were undocumented, faced hardships in obtaining education and employment 12.
  4. Social impact: The one-child policy is associated with significant problems, such as an unbalanced sex ratio, increased crime, and individual dissatisfaction toward the government 4.
Just like a see-saw. From one end to the other.
"With data from the 2020 census highlighting the looming demographic and economic crisis fueled by low birth rates, an aging population, and a shrinking workforce, in May 2021 the Chinese government announced that all married couples would be allowed to have as many as three children; this was formally passed into law in August 2021. Noteworthy with this change was the accompanying promise from the government that it would also be enacting supportive policy changes in areas such as employment, finance, childcare, and education to address the social and economic reasons why couples had thus far hesitated to have more children."

Source: China's one-child policy revisited: Its history and lingering impact
"In 2016, the one-child policy was replaced by one that allows couples to have two children. Yet the further relaxation of the family planning policy did not bring the baby boom as some expected."


Notably, fertility rates in China were already falling prior to the introduction of the one-child policy, as they often fall alongside economic development and urbanization. And aside from a brief one-year increase following the allowance of a second child, fertility rates have continued to fall in China.

The YuWa Population Research Institute, a Beijing-based think tank, has concluded that China is among the most expensive places to raise a child and that these economic concerns ā€“ rather than governmental policies ā€“ are tied to women not wanting to have more children these days.
Source: 2022: Key facts about Chinaā€™s declining population

Alot of that point to the failure of the Policy. I would have had more kids had I been able to afford more. But like that last quote points to. Kids are expensive.
 
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This is a really good bit of information that backs up your point well. Social engineering often goes wildly awry and this is most obvious in totalitarian societies where the leadership presumes to know what is best for the masses ...it's why every truly communist economy is such a mess.

On the other hand, totally uncontrolled, laissez faire systems are also horrible.

You need balance.

And right now we are very out of balance. Even my old 50 year old Maytag is banging itself apart on the spin dry cycle. What's a guy to do?

Koyaanisqatsi.
 
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