Are there examples of large stocky guys like me pulling off acrobatic kicks?

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I'm not a huge fan of spinning techniques, but drop bear has a point. These moves aren't thrown in isolation and if done well, the striker's intent will be camouflaged.

Suppose you are in kicking range and your opponent starts to spin. No problem - just move in to jam the kick, right? Oops - he was actually throwing a spinning back fist and you ran right into it.

Suppose you are punching range and your opponent start to spin. Okay, now it's definitely safe to move in, right? Oops - this time it was a spinning elbow. Ouch! Maybe it's just safer to move back out of range. Darn it, now it's a spinning kick and you're in range again. Probably you should just back way the heck out of even kicking range - and that's when he covers more ground than you thought he could with one of those crazy tornado kick things and catches you anyway.

To be clear, moving in against a spinning kick (or backfist or elbow) is a valid counter. It just depends a lot on your relative range and pre-existing momentum. Guys who are really, really good at spinning techniques know the right time and place to throw them:

• They may throw the spinning attack as part of a combination that already has you moving back, so it's hard for you to change directions and come back in faster than they can throw their spin.
• They may throw a shorter range spinning attack (elbow, forearm, backfist) as you are already closing in, timing it so you run into the strike. If they step offline as they do this, they can even get you to run onto a spinning kick.
• They may use feints to confuse you, catch you mentally or literally flat footed, and then hit you with a fast spin before your brain can process which way the attack is coming from and which way you should move to defend.

All that said, I don't make spinning techniques an important part of my arsenal. They're high-risk, high-reward techniques with specialized application which require a lot of work if you want to develop the skill, speed, and timing to be really dangerous with them. I'd rather put that same effort into developing techniques which are safer and have more generalized application. (Also, they require a flat, clear, open environment which may not be present in a self-defense situation.) Still I'm aware that a high-level fighter who specializes in spinning kicks can be dangerous and not that easy to counter.

I agree with all of this. I talked badly about spins a lot, until I met someone who knew how to use it to his advantage, and now I fully recognize their power. However, i still don't see the purpose of spinning more than 360. Can't see any higher reward for that risk.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Actually, you already have the balance and strength to do a technique properly before you do it. Otherwise you will compensate by moving incorrectly thus risking injury. Either that or you fail the technique altogether thus not knowing if you do it correctly.

Not if you do it gradually, and have someone who knows the technique that can tell you if you did it correctly or not.

So people do not train techniques unless ready for it if they care about remaining strong and we'll in body.

Not true. Last week I was doing spinning techniques at a faster speed than I am ready for. I care about my body. I did not damage it, as it was controlled and I slowly raise my speed.

Doing a spinning kick without having proper balance could perhaps damage your knees when landing. Or strength failing causing incomplete rotation and with it damage to ankles.

Agreed, that's why you increase the difficulty of the techniques gradually.

I have not heard many true martial artists training a technique they can't do, over and over. Usually it is broken down to pieces and trained until they are so tired of it and bored that doing the full technique is not only easy but almost impossible to resist.

I never said anything against breaking it down. The way to learn these techniques is breaking it down, understand what to do, then piece it together and that is where you increase your spin speed/balance, as you attempt to do the technique.

 

[Phobius]

I never said anything against breaking it down. The way to learn these techniques is breaking it down, understand what to do, then piece it together and that is where you increase your spin speed/balance, as you attempt to do the technique.

This was about the topic that OP wrote about. And OP wrote that he broke it down but felt he wanted to do the whole technique and not the pieces broken down.

His sifu said he really shouldn't do it which gives the impression his sifu deems him not yet ready.

As such to me the discussion is about doing a complete technique in full without perhaps being ready. The ready part was more of a question towards the OP. And as such I highlight that doing a technique in full that you are not ready to do, especially a more advanced type of spinning such as this... well I doubt anyone would recommend such a thing.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'm not a huge fan of spinning techniques, but drop bear has a point. These moves aren't thrown in isolation and if done well, the striker's intent will be camouflaged.

Again, this doesn't really pertain to what the OP asked. The question was not about a spinning kick. I teach and use spinning kicks all the time. This was about a twirling kick, involving between 1.5 and 2 full rotations in the air.

What you've said about spinning kicks is true; it just doesn't have anything to do with what was asked.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

This was about the topic that OP wrote about. And OP wrote that he broke it down but felt he wanted to do the whole technique and not the pieces broken down.

Yes, that is the part where you learn the balance and coordination. When you have to put them together and learn to jump and spin while kicking. My argument is simply that you can put them together and learn the skills, you just have to do it gradually (start with a 180 jump kick)

His sifu said he really shouldn't do it which gives the impression his sifu deems him not yet ready.

As such to me the discussion is about doing a complete technique in full without perhaps being ready. The ready part was more of a question towards the OP. And as such I highlight that doing a technique in full that you are not ready to do, especially a more advanced type of spinning such as this... well I doubt anyone would recommend such a thing.

I would agree if that were the case, but your comment that I originally responded to was in response to him specifically stating that that was not the case. His sifu didn't say he wasn't ready, just that he didn't like the kicks. You commented that learning kicks is not a valid way to improve balance, and I disagreed.

 

[Phobius]

Yes, that is the part where you learn the balance and coordination. When you have to put them together and learn to jump and spin while kicking. My argument is simply that you can put them together and learn the skills, you just have to do it gradually (start with a 180 jump kick)



I would agree if that were the case, but your comment that I originally responded to was in response to him specifically stating that that was not the case. His sifu didn't say he wasn't ready, just that he didn't like the kicks. You commented that learning kicks is not a valid way to improve balance, and I disagreed.

Actually he never answered my question on whether his sifu thought of him ready to do the technique.

If you think I meant training any kick is what I meant as being bad then I came out wrong.

You train stance to master a good solid balance so you can kick, then you train a basic kick to build strength and dynamic balance and then moving on once more advanced kicks are no longer hard for you.

OR you train with a teacher that guides you along the way and prevents damage. I am against jumping into doing complex kicks when you doubt yourself if you can do them. Yes you learn balance and strength while trying to do your technique but it is a race. What comes first, technique or injury. And you are served better training your already established kicks thus improving them.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Actually he never answered my question on whether his sifu thought of him ready to do the technique.

He said that his sifu did not teach these kicks, but a TKD guy did. AFAIK they are not part of any kenpo curriculum, so I made the assumption based on that that it has to do with the style and not his capabilities.

You train stance to master a good solid balance so you can kick, then you train a basic kick to build strength and dynamic balance and then moving on once more advanced kicks are no longer hard for you.

OR you train with a teacher that guides you along the way and prevents damage. I am against jumping into doing complex kicks when you doubt yourself if you can do them. Yes you learn balance and strength while trying to do your technique but it is a race. What comes first, technique or injury. And you are served better training your already established kicks thus improving them.

I completely agree with this, so I guess that we actually do agree on this