Are modern ninjutsu schools frauds?

[jboler]

Wow. Been out a long time, yet this topic is still being thrown around. I look at this way. Fraud=deceit. Therefore, if they are they using false credentials, writing false histories, etc., then yes they are frauds.

Using the term "legitimate" is a different question. If they are up front about who they are, where they came from, etc., can you call them illegitimate? They are not frauds...it's subject to interpretation. To some, illegitimate means they have no direct lineage to historical Ninjutsu. To others, combat effectiveness determines legitimacy.

I don't think you can throw the Bujinkan in to that group, as there are multiple systems in that group, only one of which is Ninpo.

 

[Finlay]

What if we could market a product that not only doesn't exist, but never existed?

Maybe taking a Japanese first name and a Korean last name could help...

You mean....... no don't say his name

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You mean....... no don't say his name

Saying it once is okay. Even twice. Never say it the third time, though.

 

[Hanzou]

I wouldn’t call them frauds, but man, Bujinkan and Toshindo ground fighting is awful. I’ve seen martial arts that are technically sound, but just have fundamental training issues, but the ground work I’ve seen from the ninja guys is neither technically sound or trained well. You could literally train that stuff for the rest of your life and you won’t be as competent in ground fighting as a Judo, Bjj, Sambo, Wrestling, Shao Jiao, Catch, etc. novice. It’s that bad.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I wouldn’t call them frauds, but man, Bujinkan and Toshindo ground fighting is awful. I’ve seen martial arts that are technically sound, but just have fundamental training issues, but the ground work I’ve seen from the ninja guys is neither technically sound or trained well. You could literally train that stuff for the rest of your life and you won’t be as competent in ground fighting as a Judo, Bjj, Sambo, Wrestling, Shao Jiao, Catch, etc. novice. It’s that bad.

It's easy to fall into bad ground work if you only ever do a few moves down there, and only ever in compliant drills (never moving on to at least light resistance). The basic moves I learned in NGA are vaguely similar to a couple of basic sweeps I picked up from BJJ guys. Vaguely. Like, if you squint and don't have your glasses on, they look similar from a distance. But none of the fundamentals were really there. The ground control moves are okay, but they lack some of the over-arching principles for side control and such, and those develop almost naturally if you just roll a bit.

 

[Hanzou]

It's easy to fall into bad ground work if you only ever do a few moves down there, and only ever in compliant drills (never moving on to at least light resistance). The basic moves I learned in NGA are vaguely similar to a couple of basic sweeps I picked up from BJJ guys. Vaguely. Like, if you squint and don't have your glasses on, they look similar from a distance. But none of the fundamentals were really there. The ground control moves are okay, but they lack some of the over-arching principles for side control and such, and those develop almost naturally if you just roll a bit.

Well yeah, but the difference is that you admit it. Those guys don't admit it. Instead they say that their stuff is simply too dangerous and refuse to test it against other systems that specialize in it. Instead of improving their craft, they're creating nonsensical myths about where the lackluster techniques originated from instead of just admitting that they made them up.

And that's the real tragedy in all of this, because they really have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well yeah, but the difference is that you admit it. Those guys don't admit it. Instead they say that their stuff is simply too dangerous and refuse to test it against other systems that specialize in it. Instead of improving their craft, they're creating nonsensical myths about where the lackluster techniques originated from instead of just admitting that they made them up.

And that's the real tragedy in all of this, because they really have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

I think you'll find most groups that don't specialize in groundwork have a mix of those who are aware of fundamental groundwork issues (either flaws in design, or flaws that have crept in because of lack of tempering) and those who aren't. That's true within NGA, and probably true within the Bujinkan, as well. Though, often, those who recognize the weaknesses are not public in their views - they just do something different within their school.

 

[dunc]

Well yeah, but the difference is that you admit it. Those guys don't admit it. Instead they say that their stuff is simply too dangerous and refuse to test it against other systems that specialize in it. Instead of improving their craft, they're creating nonsensical myths about where the lackluster techniques originated from instead of just admitting that they made them up.

And that's the real tragedy in all of this, because they really have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Curious to know what you’re referring to?
There is VERY little ground work in the Bujinkan curriculum. Some sacrifice throws transitioning into mount, jumping guard with a variation on the double ankle sweep, some sweeps from the ground and some traditional kneeling techniques
But that’s about it
I don’t know anyone credible who claims otherwise (I’m of course excluding the crazies)

 

[Hanzou]

Curious to know what you’re referring to?
There is VERY little ground work in the Bujinkan curriculum. Some sacrifice throws transitioning into mount, jumping guard with a variation on the double ankle sweep, some sweeps from the ground and some traditional kneeling techniques
But that’s about it
I don’t know anyone credible who claims otherwise (I’m of course excluding the crazies)

Would you consider them some of the "crazies"?

Unfortunately the Toshindo videos have disappeared.

 

[dunc]

Toshindo I would

I have to say that the other clip is quite disappointing in that the attackers are not giving anything much to work with and leaving way too much space so Hatsumi-sensei can deal with them pretty easily with dirty tricks
TBH most of what I’ve seen him teach (which isn’t in the curriculum per se) is dirty tricks
If you look at what he’s doing the structure is there, albeit in a pretty small way (he is 70 odd in this clip) & I suspect that this has come from his Judo background as much as anything

When asked about ground fighting he pretty much always says a) if you want to learn that then go to the Gracies, b) it has limited value from a perspective of budo, but c) people who are good at it have a powerful weapon and you should make sure you can deal with it

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Would you consider them some of the "crazies"?

Unfortunately the Toshindo videos have disappeared.

The Toshindo ground material is stuff that Steve Hayes came up with after leaving the Bujinkan. (In the case of that particular video I believe it’s based on an actual catch wrestling technique that he didn’t understand correctly.)

I suspect the techniques shown by Hatsumi in the video you posted are just something he improvised on the spot and not part of the official Bujinkan curriculum. The only ground work I know of that was in the Bujinkan traditionally are the bits that Dunc mentioned. (Any current Bujinkan members can correct me if new stuff has been added to the regular curriculum. It’s been a long time since I was part of the Bujinkan.)

Either way, those videos do show the dangers of teaching material you’ve made up without actual testing.

 

[Hanzou]

Toshindo I would

Interesting. Does Toshindo have a negative reputation in BBT circles?

If you look at what he’s doing the structure is there,

Actually it isn't....

 

[Hanzou]

The Toshindo ground material is stuff that Steve Hayes came up with after leaving the Bujinkan. (In the case of that particular video I believe it’s based on an actual catch wrestling technique that he didn’t understand correctly.)

I suspect the techniques shown by Hatsumi in the video you posted are just something he improvised on the spot and not part of the official Bujinkan curriculum. The only ground work I know of that was in the Bujinkan traditionally are the bits that Dunc mentioned. (Any current Bujinkan members can correct me if new stuff has been added to the regular curriculum. It’s been a long time since I was part of the Bujinkan.)

Either way, those videos do show the dangers of teaching material you’ve made up without actual testing.

From what I've read they have a rather robust newaza curriculum supposedly originating from the Fudoryu or something. Toshindo supposedly has an entire sub system of grappling based on the earth.

I was considering purchasing a few videos just out of curiosity because I'm a grappling nerd.

 

[dunc]

I dunno where Toshindo got their stuff from
Generally speaking most people in the Bujinkan view Hayes as a guy who got the equivalent of a couple of years worth of instruction under his belt and then went out on his own filling in the gaps as he went. So it’s a different thing

FWIW I have tested / experimented with the dirty tricks against experienced grapplers (before I got into grappling) and they held up pretty well
Although I concluded that they would be much more reliable if added onto solid, structural grappling movements

 

[Hanzou]

I dunno where Toshindo got their stuff from
Generally speaking most people in the Bujinkan view Hayes as a guy who got the equivalent of a couple of years worth of instruction under his belt and then went out on his own filling in the gaps as he went. So it’s a different thing

FWIW I have tested / experimented with the dirty tricks against experienced grapplers (before I got into grappling) and they held up pretty well
Although I concluded that they would be much more reliable if added onto solid, structural grappling movements

I wouldnt say that Hatsumi is doing dirty tricks as much as he's just doing very bad grappling. There's some instances in that video where he is only using his arms from the bottom to pull someone out of mount position.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I wouldnt say that Hatsumi is doing dirty tricks as much as he's just doing very bad grappling. There's some instances in that video where he is only using his arms from the bottom to pull someone out of mount position.

I believe most of those are instances where he's using pressure points and/or skin grabs to move the top person via pain compliance.

Of course those won't work against a conditioned grappler or even most untrained people under the influence of adrenaline in a real fight. However they can provoke a response in a calm, compliance-based training situation.

 

[Hanzou]

I believe most of those are instances where he's using pressure points and/or skin grabs to move the top person via pain compliance.

Of course those won't work against a conditioned grappler or even most untrained people under the influence of adrenaline in a real fight. However they can provoke a response in a calm, compliance-based training situation.

Yeah, I wouldnt rely on twisting someone's nipples to get out from under a mount.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah, I wouldnt rely on twisting someone's nipples to get out from under a mount.

Yeah, any pain compliance, IMO, should be in addition to something that works without the pain. So, if pressure on the chest is part of a movement that will work without pain, then there's no harm in adding the nipple twist, since you're not relying on it.

 

[Hanzou]

So supposedly Hayes developed the Toshindo groundfighting system to fight against Bjj and Wrestlers. The basis of this ground system is kata.

That's utterly fascinating, and makes me even more interested in purchasing their videos.

 

[dunc]

Yeah, I wouldnt rely on twisting someone's nipples to get out from under a mount.

Err - he’s using pain + hand trap + bridging
First thing he says is to bridge the body....