Are Martial Sports better for self defense than Martial Arts?

[dvcochran]

Says who though?

Bruce Lee used to be a street thug in Hong Kong....then a street thug + bully in US Chinatowns.....he used his chopsocky to pick fights in order to make a name for himself. There's an account of him dropping and old Tai Chi man in what was supposed to be a pushing demo, but Lee punched him in the gut, haha. After he got famous, his Publicists cleaned up his image so he's now some Yoda of the martial arts?

Samurais used to be the hired killers/enforcers of scumbag warlords, going around bullying, killing and raping men, women and children with their Jujutsu. And when they had no jobs, they'd go robbing poor farmers and raping young boys and girls. But now they're glorified by, once again, White Hollywood.

Seems like the Martial Arts is merely a tool to me. And to Fighters, it's a tool to beat someone *** up in the ring.

You are still describing fighters. The true Lee I would call a fighter. Cocky and loved to fight. As you say, Hollywood made him something else. I have never heard Samurai's describe as you do so I am not going to make an opinion about something I don't know everything about.

 

[Buka]

Definitely. He failed in that regard, and I seriously wonder if he didn't de-escalate it because he knew he would absolutely wreck the guy if they fought.



I don't think so. I don't think the other guy would have stopped unless he was stopped. Frankly that fight should have been over after the initial sucker punch, because the Bjj guy had his back and was punching him in the head from behind until bystanders pulled him apart. That's pretty much game over.



Yep, definitely on the other guy's side. He's fortunate that they didn't jump in, but unfortunately some of that is out of your control.



The big guy probably would have undid the lock. I don't think the Bjj guy would have snapped his ankle.



Yes, but do we go to martial arts schools to learn how to fight, or to learn situational awareness? You don't need martial arts to learn the latter. Also the ability to fight is clearly important in the critical portion of self defense when physical violence has been initiated.

Either one of those clowns could have de-escalated that situation easily. And in my opinion, the jits kid was just drooling over getting that guy to take a swing.

Shame on both their young asses.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You are still describing fighters. The true Lee I would call a fighter. Cocky and loved to fight. As you say, Hollywood made him something else. I have never heard Samurai's describe as you do so I am not going to make an opinion about something I don't know everything about.

What I've heard (and I'm far from expert in this area) lines up with what FR said - samurai were as ill-behaved as the knights of Europe were. And just like the knights, we've since placed them on a pedestal as paragons of virtue. Surely some were (in both groups), but apparently that was not the norm. Not surprisingly, they were all human, and flawed.

 

[FriedRice]

You are still describing fighters. The true Lee I would call a fighter. Cocky and loved to fight. As you say, Hollywood made him something else. I have never heard Samurai's describe as you do so I am not going to make an opinion about something I don't know everything about.

You should research Samurais...very interesting. They were basically hired thugs/killers. When their Warlords got conquered by another Warlord, they'd go elsewhere....and if there weren't any House that hired them, they'd start preying on the weak....raping, stealing and killing; because they don't like working regular jobs.....which was usually farming or something.

That's why the peasant farmer class of Japan developed Karate....to defend vs. the scumbag Samurais (and Warlords). Lots of empty hand fighting b/c farmers couldn't afford nice swords....just cheap staffs, spears and I think those sais have farming tools relations....I'm not sure. It's been a while since I read up about them, so I could be wrong.

Martial Arts was probably created as a tool of death & destruction.

 

[dvcochran]

Gotcha, but I don't need to take a MA to learn situational awareness. I know some MAs offer it, but that training isn't exclusive to MA, and frankly is taught better elsewhere.

I don't think you can make the broad statement that it is taught better elsewhere unless that is all you are looking for. SA, like MA isn't something you can go to a few classes and learn.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I would love to see another 60 seconds of the clip. They were pulling and going through motion drills. I am not sure his head even moved. Was it a hard hit or was he clowning?

Watch it in slow motion and on full screen, and that will answer one of those questions.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When you spar noobs you can't go at them like that. They don't have the positional defenses.

When I watched the video in slow motion that guy was scared. The punch wasn't hard but it was fast and he probably though it was going to be harder than it really was. I did a 3 day class 2 years ago explaining how the brain reacts to intensity.

I actually have a video that shows me moving attacking really fast. Even though I was no wear near hitting him. His brain was registering "oh crap get out of the way." It was one of the non-fighting classes I enjoyed the most.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What I've heard (and I'm far from expert in this area) lines up with what FR said - samurai were as ill-behaved as the knights of Europe were.

This is true. There wasn't any honorable about them. I'm sure there were nice ones there, but for them it had less to do with honor and more to do with power. It was one of those things where the goal was to make others think that they were. This way the harm that you do is Justified. It's no different than what we see to day with wars.

 

[drop bear]

I don't think you can make the broad statement that it is taught better elsewhere unless that is all you are looking for. SA, like MA isn't something you can go to a few classes and learn.

If there is no standard or accountability associated with a training method.

That method is probably junk.

 

[TMA17]

I didn't read every response, but I think the sport side really helps anyone training in a martial art become better. Live resistance, repetition, perfecting moves etc. When I look back at my Wing Chun experience, it was so so bad. I almost feel bad for those guys who think they are learning valuable self defense techniques. The Wing Chun that spars is good, but if there is just forms, no good. I've really learned in just the last 2 months of doing Judo how important that live element is. Just getting used to that resistance is HUGE. Being thrown, learning to throw. Being taken off-balance. This goes for any martial art or sport. When I played high school football for the first time that was an eye opener after years of flag football. Actually taking a hit and hitting back etc. Boxing is tough because sparring can be bad for your brain but that too is important. I think with boixng though, if you spend time on a heavy bag perfecting punches and movements that is good too. That also could help you in a real fight, but not against a trained boxer. Probably just your average joe.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I would go with the latter. But its pretty 50/50.

In its purist form a martial art, focused on actual combative skill, would be about the destrution of your opponent or their lethal or less than lethal incapacitation in a fight. you obviously need to be fit and they would focus on that, live practice of skills is also a requirement.

In its purest form, sport fighting is winning under a quite controlled circumstance. death usually isnt sought after when boxing someone for example, dont have to worry about unfavorable terrain, weapons, passerbys or other elements. The importance of being fit and practicing your skill realistically is also present.


A key element in actually fighting someone is experience though and that's whats been gutted out of civilian circles mostly. You need to actually fight someone to get experience in fighting someone, then you run into survivor bias and all of that if you analyze these.

Yes you can learn from someone who has fought and take their experiences to lessen what you need to learn actually doing it and lessen your chances of death or incapacitation etc, but you need to learn in actual field conditions, at least someone has to. There is a reason why instructors in the military usually have combat experience and they try to retain them to teach the next generation of soldiers ans they are also gathering experience in how to conduct operations better with every conflict they survive BUT the statement "militaries prepare for the last war they fought in" exists and is due to the only example you can draw on being in the past and they might not play into future events.



Anyway, kind of rambling, hope i made a point clear. I kind fo mixed what i was trying to draw examples from as well, hopefully it didnt make it un readable.

Oh i also had a TL;DR moment, and didnt read most of the replies, apologies if this is a repeat.

I obviously have a bias to learning these things for pure combat skill over spiritual and self perfection pursuits. And from that lean in favour of the martial arts which are purist in that regard.


Addendum: I would go far as to say, both should be peruses and they have high similarities. The use of sport can be used to encourage the participation which in turn will make the person fitter and give them a good incentive to continue practicing the skills etc.

My only issue is, if you goal is combat, the sport element to encourage participation and improvement shouldn't have that many rules to possibly influence reactions in the real thing, it should replicate actual fighting in your doctrine as much as you can safely do or else it would be counter productive to your goals.

 

[DaveB]

That's why the peasant farmer class of Japan developed Karate....to defend vs. the scumbag Samurais (and Warlords). Lots of empty hand fighting b/c farmers couldn't afford nice swords....just cheap staffs, spears and I think those sais have farming tools relations....I'm not sure. It's been a while since I read up about them, so I could be wrong.

Martial Arts was probably created as a tool of death & destruction.

That's a myth. Karate wasn't developed to fight Samurai.
It wasn't even developed in Japan.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's a myth. Karate wasn't developed to fight Samurai.
It wasn't even developed in Japan.

It might be why it was adopted in Okinawa. I don't know enough of the back story of the art to even know that answer.

 

[DaveB]

It might be why it was adopted in Okinawa. I don't know enough of the back story of the art to even know that answer.

There's no specific narrative outside of the wealthiest Okinawans (not the farmers) had ties with various Chinese kung fu exponents who taught them stuff that they mixed with their indigenous boxing style.

The modern karate we have today came either directly from China (Goju ryu, Uechi etc) or was further blended with the Jujitsu and training/tactics of the Satsuma and the kung fu of Shaolin, both of whom had trained the bodyguard of the Ryu Kyu islands king, Bushi Matsumura.

 

[Hanzou]

Oh i also had a TL;DR moment, and didnt read most of the replies, apologies if this is a repeat.

I obviously have a bias to learning these things for pure combat skill over spiritual and self perfection pursuits. And from that lean in favour of the martial arts which are purist in that regard.


Addendum: I would go far as to say, both should be peruses and they have high similarities. The use of sport can be used to encourage the participation which in turn will make the person fitter and give them a good incentive to continue practicing the skills etc.

My only issue is, if you goal is combat, the sport element to encourage participation and improvement shouldn't have that many rules to possibly influence reactions in the real thing, it should replicate actual fighting in your doctrine as much as you can safely do or else it would be counter productive to your goals.

I don't believe that people are thinking about rules when they're in an actual altercation. I once knew a guy who did Kyokushin karate, and when he got into a bar fight, he was punching the guy in the face all the same. When I got into an fight with a crazy person who tried to turn my brain into paste with a hammer, I was punching him in the face while in guard until I got a hold of his hand and hit the triangle. I didn't let go of the triangle until he was beyond passed out, despite him constantly tapping my legs. I honestly think sport allows you to better handle the adrenaline dump and increases your overall reaction time.

Additionally when I was in competition mode at my old Bjj school, I was doing a TON of sparring to get ready for a tournament. That helped my overall Bjj skills immensely.

Maybe a little OT, but I simply don't see how you develop martial skills without hard sparring.

 

[Yokozuna514]

I honestly think sport allows you to better handle the adrenaline dump and increases your overall reaction time.

Would have to agree. Most folks think hard sparring is learning to give shots but a good dojo will also teach you to manage your reactions to getting hit and the adrenaline that comes from the activation of you flight or fight response.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't believe that people are thinking about rules when they're in an actual altercation. I once knew a guy who did Kyokushin karate, and when he got into a bar fight, he was punching the guy in the face all the same. When I got into an fight with a crazy person who tried to turn my brain into paste with a hammer, I was punching him in the face while in guard until I got a hold of his hand and hit the triangle. I didn't let go of the triangle until he was beyond passed out, despite him constantly tapping my legs. I honestly think sport allows you to better handle the adrenaline dump and increases your overall reaction time.

Additionally when I was in competition mode at my old Bjj school, I was doing a TON of sparring to get ready for a tournament. That helped my overall Bjj skills immensely.

Maybe a little OT, but I simply don't see how you develop martial skills without hard sparring.

I think the only significant potential for that with sport training is for things that aren't trained. So, a pure-competition BJJ guy might miss easy openings for strikes. More likely, he'll leave easy openings for strikes if he's only trained competition-orientation. Though, once he gets to the ground, a lot of the positional control actually controls striking surprisingly well even without that intent. It'd be more obvious looking at a striker - boxers leave easy takedown opportunities...if you can get past that jab. And they won't have the tools to take advantage of some easy (for a grappler) opportunities to end a conflict.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Maybe a little OT, but I simply don't see how you develop martial skills without hard sparring.

It can be done without hard sparring. I've seen it done with no sparring, but it's not a consistent model, in my experience. Light/technical sparring goes a surprisingly long way in developing skills, and moderate sparring covers most of the rest of the way. I think it's like exercise. A little exercise, done consistently, gives most of the life-extending benefits. Moderate exercise, done consistently, gives most of the fitness benefits. Exercising harder definitely has benefits, but the increased benefits are marginal as the exercise gets harder.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Would have to agree. Most folks think hard sparring is learning to give shots but a good dojo will also teach you to manage your reactions to getting hit and the adrenaline that comes from the activation of you flight or fight response.

But does that require sport?

To @Hanzou's point, I've had this discussion with folks here before. I really enjoy sport competition (in general - never got into it in MA, though much of my early training was in sport-oriented programs), but never really got more of an adrenaline dump or excitement from actual, sanctioned games than from scrimmage games. I felt and played the same way whether there were spectators or not - I never really paid attention to them. I actually suspect that's part of the reason I never got around to MA competition. I've wondered - and can't say, obviously, lacking the experience - whether there would be a significant difference (for someone like me) between sparring during a class and sparring in a tournament, assuming the same rules and intent to win.

 

[Yokozuna514]

It can be done without hard sparring. I've seen it done with no sparring, but it's not a consistent model, in my experience.

One may ask themselves what they will actually be able to do without the benefit of practicing at the hardest level. It’s like the knowing cpr. How ready
Would you be if you took the course but only practiced in the course compared to a person that practices giving cpr on a regular basis (eg: ambulance driver). I think the ambulance driver would be much more prepared to deal with what can come up in that situation.

It’s not only the instructions but how you practice and the frequency/ intensity that will determine your level of preparation.