Are Martial Sports better for self defense than Martial Arts?

[JowGaWolf]

so does this mean that a TMA/SD will pretend-kick someone in the balls if they're attacked in the streets for real?

yes - we fight how we train

 

[Martial D]

What if both people have the same lifestyle?

I'll always bet on the guy that trains the activity by doing the activity over the guy that doesn't.

What if boxer only hit pads and drilled stuff but karate guy was doing kumites and roof top death battles twice a week?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What if boxer only hit pads and drilled stuff but karate guy was doing kumites and roof top death battles twice a week?

You can't do roof top death battles twice a week. Your body can't take it. The sport format can give you a safe environment to test your MA skill.

You

- can spar/wrestle 15 rounds daily.
- can't fight roof top death battles twice a week.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You can't do roof top death battles twice a week. Your body can't take it. The sport format can give you a safe environment to test your MA skill.

You

- can spar/wrestle 15 rounds daily.
- can't fight roof top death battles twice a week.

What if it's against a toddler? I'm pretty sure my body could handle a rooftop death battle with a toddler every day if it had to.

 

[Buka]

What the heck is a rooftop death battle? An expression, or is that a thing?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

What the heck is a rooftop death battle? An expression, or is that a thing?

 

[dvcochran]

This question has been bugging me for awhile, and it mainly comes out of Rickson Gracie's arguments in regards to self defense BJJ vs Sport Bjj, and the age old Martial Art vs Martial Sport debate. When I think about what a martial sport can bring to a table vs a martial art, I simply have to give the edge to the sport. They develop speed, cardio, strength, and are applying their skills over and over again in a controlled environment. MMA is a sport that is currently giving traditional arts a run for their money. Their exponents just appear to be better fighters overall than their traditional peers. People constantly say that Boxing is great for self defense, and Boxing is definitely a sport at just about every level of practice.

Here is vid of a sport Bjj practitioner in a fight on a basketball court:

While he was consistently interrupted by bystanders, he still executed his moves well, and clearly controlled his opponent at every stage of the fight.

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear what others think about this.

A rebuttal could not have been said better than @MetalBoar 's. I will add this. I am certain most people on this form who practice a TMA do not practice your idea of a TMA. We often spar in a very combative way, giving leeway to "tapping out" or pulling attacks so we can come back night after night and do it again. We practice self defense, both in how we use all the attacks, block, etc... we learn and in specific techniques and applications. If you are making your comparison to fighters in the amateur/professional circuits then yes, you have a valid argument. But you are talking about <1% of everyone in all MA's combined. And that really isn't any kind of Martial Art. That is fighting.

 

[FriedRice]

If you are making your comparison to fighters in the amateur/professional circuits then yes, you have a valid argument. But you are talking about <1% of everyone in all MA's combined. And that really isn't any kind of Martial Art. That is fighting.

But now you're getting into doctrines and dogma that we don't subscribe to....to say that it really isn't any kind of MA.

 

[Martial D]

If you are making your comparison to fighters in the amateur/professional circuits then yes, you have a valid argument. But you are talking about <1% of everyone in all MA's combined. And that really isn't any kind of Martial Art. That is fighting.

Wait, so it's only a martial art if you don't use it for it's intended purpose?

 

[JR 137]

What if both people have the same lifestyle?

Not enough of a sample size. Take 200 people.

There are some “gamers” out there. Great example is a backup goalie we had one year. The guy smoked 2 packs a day and was more concerned with cracking jokes with the guys during practice and hooking up with the ladies every other moment. Starting goalie broke his tibia first game of the season. Coaches expected him to get his act together. Nope.

If we were up 2 or more goals, he’d let an easy one get by him. If the game was on the line, he was a brick wall in the goal. Never once gave up an important goal. Made ridiculous saves every time he needed to. Let in awful goals whenever it didn’t matter.

I like gamers.

 

[Christopher Adamchek]

The sport aspects of training are great!
But i would not give them the edge over martial arts, actually if you take out the artistic qualities martial combatives has the edge (training in real enviroments, talking people down, using the objects around you, fighting multiple people, surprise attacks, introducing a slew of weapons)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The sport aspects of training are great!
But i would not give them the edge over martial arts, actually if you take out the artistic qualities martial combatives has the edge (training in real enviroments, talking people down, using the objects around you, fighting multiple people, surprise attacks, introducing a slew of weapons)

The "art" in "martial arts" isn't about artistic qualities. It's a usage that was more common in the past - it refers to learned skill.

 

[Christopher Adamchek]

The "art" in "martial arts" isn't about artistic qualities. It's a usage that was more common in the past - it refers to learned skill.

I understand, and in a way still consider that an artistic quality. Like painting in an older art style. And some art do have more other artistic qualities such as music or dancing aspects incorporated in the art.

 

[FriedRice]

The sport aspects of training are great!
But i would not give them the edge over martial arts, actually if you take out the artistic qualities martial combatives has the edge (training in real enviroments, talking people down, using the objects around you, fighting multiple people, surprise attacks, introducing a slew of weapons)

If part of your training, does not include full power strikes to the body & head with the full intentions of knocking your training partner out, then it's still very Larpy and levels below MMA. And I should know because I'm also a Larper and this is what many of these SD combatives, Krav Maga whatever are doing....you Larp out fantasy scenarios with pretend-strikes and up to light contact (maybe even medium). I'm not saying it's useless, just levels below hard sparring for KO's to fighting in the cage, which is the highest.

 

[JR 137]

If part of your training, does not include full power strikes to the body & head with the full intentions of knocking your training partner out, then it's still very Larpy and levels below MMA. And I should know because I'm also a Larper and this is what many of these SD combatives, Krav Maga whatever are doing....you Larp out fantasy scenarios with pretend-strikes and up to light contact (maybe even medium). I'm not saying it's useless, just levels below hard sparring for KO's to fighting in the cage, which is the highest.

Those guys and gals who are training for cage fights and the like aren’t practicing with full power strikes to the body and head. If they are, their careers aren’t going to last very long, and neither will their sparring partners’.

It’s all too common and easy to say “you fight how you train.” The best fighters in the world aren’t sparring anywhere near 100% intensity in training, yet they can do it just fine in the ring/cage/whatever.

Spar to protect your and your partners’ long term health. Hit other things at full intensity and power, like heavy bags.

 

[Martial D]

Those guys and gals who are training for cage fights and the like aren’t practicing with full power strikes to the body and head. If they are, their careers aren’t going to last very long, and neither will their sparring partners’.

It’s all too common and easy to say “you fight how you train.” The best fighters in the world aren’t sparring anywhere near 100% intensity in training, yet they can do it just fine in the ring/cage/whatever.

Spar to protect your and your partners’ long term health. Hit other things at full intensity and power, like heavy bags.

They go full out in sparring at AKA. Yes, they get injured at a greater rate than most other gyms, but they have also produced more champions(Cain, Khabib, DC, Holm, etc etc)

 

[Yokozuna514]

If part of your training, does not include full power strikes to the body & head with the full intentions of knocking your training partner out, then it's still very Larpy and levels below MMA. And I should know because I'm also a Larper and this is what many of these SD combatives, Krav Maga whatever are doing....you Larp out fantasy scenarios with pretend-strikes and up to light contact (maybe even medium). I'm not saying it's useless, just levels below hard sparring for KO's to fighting in the cage, which is the highest.

I actually believe you need to have both in your training regimen. Hard sparring for the realism and to allow you to 'test' your training at full level power (ie: Tests all aspects of your training from shots delivered to shots taken. Considers live opponents and requires you to be active and reactive or face painful consequences. Evaluates overall fitness, breathing, footwork and strategy.....etc. at full power) but the price you pay is that you can get injured or perhaps injure your sparring partner (s) to a point that they have to stop training to recover. This is not ideal.

In this respect, light to medium sparring is much better. It allows you to try different tactics or strategies without fear of getting injured. The drawback to always sparring lightly is a false sense of confidence of what your real skills are really like at full power and against opponents that have bad intensions toward you. As Mike Tyson said, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face".

You need the hard sparring to get an idea of what it is like to really get hit and then you will know if you can remember how to perform the art you have been training in. Many folks would also be surprised at how quickly they gas out after sparring at 100%. Amazing to see how quickly people fade after the initial adrenaline dump.........

 

[Headhunter]

Those guys and gals who are training for cage fights and the like aren’t practicing with full power strikes to the body and head. If they are, their careers aren’t going to last very long, and neither will their sparring partners’.

It’s all too common and easy to say “you fight how you train.” The best fighters in the world aren’t sparring anywhere near 100% intensity in training, yet they can do it just fine in the ring/cage/whatever.

Spar to protect your and your partners’ long term health. Hit other things at full intensity and power, like heavy bags.

Agreed. If you spar at 100% you'll more than likely get injured and have to pull out of the fight. A number of UFC fighters have gone on record saying they regret sparring so stupidly. Jamie Varner, Forrest griffin and Donald cerrone are the 3 that come to mind and those are high level fighters and cerrone said he doesn't spar anymore. Also tony Ferguson has said he hasn't sparred in 5 years.sparring is mainly for cardio and timing and distance and looking for openings not hitting full power that's why they have bags and pads.

 

[Dirty Dog]

They go full out in sparring at AKA. Yes, they get injured at a greater rate than most other gyms, but they have also produced more champions(Cain, Khabib, DC, Holm, etc etc)

And you have world class competitors, such as Cowboy Cerrone, who don't spar at all.

 

[Headhunter]

They go full out in sparring at AKA. Yes, they get injured at a greater rate than most other gyms, but they have also produced more champions(Cain, Khabib, DC, Holm, etc etc)

Um holm trains at Greg jacksons gym.

Cain is basically retired because of injuries he's been out longer than mcgrgeor, khabib who while yes now is on top but also took a very long time off with injuries.

That type of training just isn't smart at all health wise and career wise