Are all these techs needed?

[Michael Billings]

A noble sentiment, I thought you had "retired" somewhat from this forum. Glad you have not.

Albeit I agree with the content of what you stated, in theory, I do think everyone is entitled to an opinion ... and the right to express it. I also get tired of the same detractors criticizing instead of "adding to" the discussion. To their credit, and to be generous, I bet that they think they are helping others with their perspective ... and never the twain shall meet (unless you agree with them on a point.)

How about a "Kenpo Synthesis" thread, or "Kenpo/BJJ", or maybe a "For Kenpo Street Fighters Only." They will never see, and if they do, admit, that there are merits to studying an Art, which includes Basics, Forms, Sets, Freestyle, 154 (at least) if not 256 Self-Defense techniques. Put 'em in front of someone and they want to BANG. Well so do I ... but that does not preclude my study of the complete Art and System of Kenpo as SGM Parker handed it on. This is NOT a stagnant system, it did not "freeze" with Mr. Parker's death. But what he did do, is provide us with a framework, and conceptual basis for analyzation of what is and is not USLESS. Don't you think he would have eliminated a training horse or basics from the system if he did not see value? I think he would have!!! I see the value, just because you can't does not mean, "Your opinion is correct."

He trained basics in isolation, out of a horse ... he also did them out of a neutral bow. This same rationale applies to techniques. He did all the techniques ... not just a limited number, and boy did he explode and rip!!!!!!

Just because YOU cannot, will not, or do not learn all the techniques, mean anything to me. I have learned them, used them (or pieces of them) and given the 24 years I have been at Kenpo ... not just in it, consider all the techniques as valuable and necessary.

Yes, I could make do with 20 or 30 to defend myself, but that is not the complete goal in understanding or executing the sophisticated system that we all study. The techniques give us a vehicle for finding applications, from any possible position in which we may find ourselves. Try it with anyone in the Art over 20 years, and I bet they will use a piece of a technique whether seated, laying down or standing on their heads . Heck, you don't have to be at it 20 years, I just wanted you to have some perspective, and realize some of the Seniors do read this Board, they don't comment on the forum, but in private, the shake their heads, laugh, and say "they just don't get it". :rofl:

Those who want to train, TRAIN. Those who don't, DON'T. But do not impose your limitations or bias convinces Newby's who don't know whether they have ever been exposed to GOOD KENPO, or not.

That is my pet peeve.

I am getting off the :soapbox: now.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Kirk
NOPE! Not when it's impossible anymore to post a darned thing
in here without you or OFK coming in and fargin talking about how
cross training is the bomb, IMPLY that those that don't cross train
are poor depraved idiots, and imply that kenpo is some sort of
crappy art. Now there's a TON of people that have studied more
arts than you ever will, who are HIGH ranking seniors in kenpo.
Their claim is that kenpo is the most complete system out there.
I'll take their word for it over yours anyday! You'll earn no respect
for you, or your opinions when you're as rude as you have been.



"Fortunately" ??? What's that all about???

Buuuut, I'm sure you just want to save up poor happless
dumbasses, right?

I'll tell ya one thing I do know for sure .. the kenpo forum here
USED TO kick some major butt, until you and your cronies came
along and poisoned every single fargin thread with your gibberish.

Hmmmm, should I listen to MJS, OFK, or Martin Wheeler, Huk Planas, Steven LaBounty, Sascha Williams, Ed Parker, Lee Wedlake?? Decisions, decisions.

Crosstraining is something that is totally up to the individual. I'm not holding a gun to anyones head telling them to do it. If you dont want to, then dont. Its just something that I choose to do. You sit and say that there are people that have sutdied more arts than I ever will??? Gee, does that mean that they cross train too? Sounds like you're contradicting yourself there pal!!!

Earning respect?? I'm not here to make someone respect me. As for being rude----dont you think that telling someone to shut up is not being rude??? Dont know about you, but I wouldn't respect anybody that told me to shut up! I never told anyone to listen to me. Just funny how some people here seem to think and want everyone to believe that crosstraining isnt good and that Kenpo is the Ultimate art!!! Thats funny, because if that was the case, then everybody would train the same art, because they would be unbeatable. So basically, you're telling me that Kenpo guys punch better than a boxer, kick better than a kickboxer, and defend themselves on the ground better than a grappler!!:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Yeah, ok!

Fortunately???? OK, I'll explain that one to you. What I meant was, is that fortunately there are others on here that see the value of crosstraining, and are not under the thumb of the people on here that like to control others, by telling them what or what not to do.

I'm not trying to save anybody. How you train is your business, like I said earlier.

Poisoned every thread with gibberish??? Sounds like Clyde and some of the others are doing a good job of that all ready, by saying that Kenpo is the ultimate and that everything is addressed in it. You know, alot of these guys live in the CA. area. There are alot of world class grapplers in Cali. It's be interesting to hook up with some of them and test out your Kenpo against being taken down. Of course, I dont think that would ever happen---the egos are too big!

Again Kirk, I'm not telling anyone what to do. If you are happy with what you are doing, that is great! I"m not saying dont listen Planas and the others that you mention. If you want to limit your options, then fine. Train who you want, and I'll train how I want!

HHHHMMMM....listen to Clyde or listen to the people that I train with? Decisions, Decisions!!!

Mike

 

[Michael Billings]

... they just don't get it.

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
... they just don't get it.

I saw this in a thread somewhere just recently...."BAM"!

 

[MJS]

I've never once said for ANYBODY to stop doing the art that they are doing. All I'm saying is to take and idea or concept from another art, and add it to what you already know. Look at a boxer. They work on hand techs. day after day after day. I would think that they would know juat a little about boxing, right? So, if you took an idea from boxing, added it to your Kenpo, and by doing that, you just made your jab and hook 50% better than it was before, do you still think that this is bad?

A kickboxer or Thai fighter works on kicks. If you were able to take a concept from that, add it to your Kenpo, and you just made your roundkick 505 more powerful than it was before, is this a bad thing?

Mike

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by MJS
Crosstraining is something that is totally up to the individual. I'm not holding a gun to anyones head telling them to do it. If you dont want to, then dont. Its just something that I choose to do. You sit and say that there are people that have sutdied more arts than I ever will??? Gee, does that mean that they cross train too? Sounds like you're contradicting yourself there pal!!!

I never said cross training was bad .. YOU have incessantly said
it's bad to NOT cross train. And you say it so much and annoy so
many that kenpoists have stopped posting here. Soon you'll
only have yourself to talk to, which would probably please you
just fine. It's just something you choose to do?!?! Seems to me
like you also choose to pollute every thread with your mumbo
jumbo.

Originally posted by MJS
Earning respect?? I'm not here to make someone respect me. As for being rude----dont you think that telling someone to shut up is not being rude??? Dont know about you, but I wouldn't respect anybody that told me to shut up! I never told anyone to listen to me. Just funny how some people here seem to think and want everyone to believe that crosstraining isnt good and that Kenpo is the Ultimate art!!! Thats funny, because if that was the case, then everybody would train the same art, because they would be unbeatable. So basically, you're telling me that Kenpo guys punch better than a boxer, kick better than a kickboxer, and defend themselves on the ground better than a grappler!!:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Yeah, ok!

Never said that either. I'm saying you can't do anything but talk
about how terrible kenpo is, and how if a kenpoist doesn't cross
trained, they'll get their butts kicked. TRUST me dude .. I'm not
the only one tired of it! Good thing you're not here to earn any
respect .. you're doing a damned fine job of it!

Originally posted by MJS
Fortunately???? OK, I'll explain that one to you. What I meant was, is that fortunately there are others on here that see the value of crosstraining, and are not under the thumb of the people on here that like to control others, by telling them what or what not to do.

That's exactly what I mean! EVERYONE HERE knows your fricken
opinion of crosstraining ..... so stop already and discuss KENPO
for a change! Go to the MMA board to worship crosstraining, this
is a KENPO FORUM! You get "shut up" because people are tired
of your constant rants of the SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

Originally posted by MJS
I'm not trying to save anybody. How you train is your business, like I said earlier.

I don't buy that for a second .. otherwise you'd have shut up by
now. But nope! There ya are, in every thread on the kenpo
forum going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on...

Originally posted by MJS

Poisoned every thread with gibberish??? Sounds like Clyde and some of the others are doing a good job of that all ready, by saying that Kenpo is the ultimate and that everything is addressed in it. You know, alot of these guys live in the CA. area. There are alot of world class grapplers in Cali. It's be interesting to hook up with some of them and test out your Kenpo against being taken down.

This may come as a shock to you but you're in a KENPO forum!
In addition ... Clyde doesn't post about the SAME THING over and
over again, and I haven't noticed a SIGNIFICANT reduction in
posts since Clyde became a member.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Kirk
I never said cross training was bad .. YOU have incessantly said
it's bad to NOT cross train. And you say it so much and annoy so
many that kenpoists have stopped posting here. Soon you'll
only have yourself to talk to, which would probably please you
just fine. It's just something you choose to do?!?! Seems to me
like you also choose to pollute every thread with your mumbo
jumbo.

And people like Clyde are constantly saying that its a complete art--whats the differnce here?



Never said that either. I'm saying you can't do anything but talk
about how terrible kenpo is, and how if a kenpoist doesn't cross
trained, they'll get their butts kicked. TRUST me dude .. I'm not
the only one tired of it! Good thing you're not here to earn any
respect .. you're doing a damned fine job of it!

Never said Kenpo was terrible. Dont put words into my mouth. Taking an idea to make your Kenpo better is not a crime. Never said to stop training Kenpo and take up another art, that is what you're thinking I'm saying.



That's exactly what I mean! EVERYONE HERE knows your fricken
opinion of crosstraining ..... so stop already and discuss KENPO
for a change! Go to the MMA board to worship crosstraining, this
is a KENPO FORUM! You get "shut up" because people are tired
of your constant rants of the SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

You know what. I"ve seen others try to do that, and god forbid they dont agree with some of the mighty ones here, they get put down or they get a rude response.



I don't buy that for a second .. otherwise you'd have shut up by
now. But nope! There ya are, in every thread on the kenpo
forum going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on...

Yeah, ok



This may come as a shock to you but you're in a KENPO forum!
In addition ... Clyde doesn't post about the SAME THING over and
over again, and I haven't noticed a SIGNIFICANT reduction in
posts since Clyde became a member.

Well, you know what. He has this unique way of being a wise guy and I'm not the only one who has commented on it. Doesnt say much for a guy with his exp. and his rank. Rather than put people down, why not offer some constructive comments.

Mike

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by MJS
Well, you know what. He has this unique way of being a wise guy and I'm not the only one who has commented on it. Doesnt say much for a guy with his exp. and his rank. Rather than put people down, why not offer some constructive comments.

Mike

He DOES offer constructive comments, the first 1 or 2 times. After that he gets tired of repeating himself, especially when it is obvious that what he says is being ignored.

:shrug:

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by MJS
Well, you know what. He has this unique way of being a wise guy and I'm not the only one who has commented on it. Doesnt say much for a guy with his exp. and his rank. Rather than put people down, why not offer some constructive comments.

Mike

And rather than turning every thread in the kenpo forum into a
crosstraining one, you could discuss KENPO for a change.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Kirk:

Many, probably most, of my posts on this forum advocate cross-training or at least exposure to other arts and methods. On this thread I have tried to focus on the argument of training methodoligies to address this thread topic. I have made 4 posts on this thread. Several of those posts drew examples from other styles to demonstrate possible answers to the questions. At no time did I advocate that Kenpoists incorporate any of these alternate methods -- only that they consider them in formulating their answers to the thread's question.

If my posts on Martialtalk and the Kenponet have lead you to believe that I believe that those who don't cross-train are idiots, then you have totally misunderstood me and I have failed to clearly communicate my philosophy. That is not what I believe. I do believe that Kenpoists who ignore other arts are missing important opportunities to better understand and improve their own Kenpo practice. If you read any of my posts on non-Kenpo forums (fightauthority, nhbgear, defend.net, jiu-jitsu.net) you would discover that I publicly defend Kenpo to BJJ and MMA fanatics who question Kenpo's effectiveness far more strongly than I do on this forum.

As to my ruining the MartialTalk Kenpo froum--that is not what I hear from others here. If you are so insecure in your Kenpo that you cannot bear to discuss alternative perspectives with other Kenpoists, then so be it. I will continue to offer my limited wisdom as garnered from my 30 years of study of non-mainstream EPAK/Tracy-derived Kenpo, Shotokan, Aikijujitsu, Escrima, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu until such time as I am banned or find something better to do with my free time at work.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
As to my ruining the MartialTalk Kenpo froum--that is not what I hear from others here. If you are so insecure in your Kenpo that you cannot bear to discuss alternative perspectives with other Kenpoists, then so be it. I will continue to offer my limited wisdom as garnered from my 30 years of study of non-mainstream EPAK/Tracy-derived Kenpo, Shotokan, Aikijujitsu, Escrima, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu until such time as I am banned or find something better to do with my free time at work.

I was here when this site was just a baby .. I don't THINK/FEEL
that it's happened, I've SEEN it. Where are the vast numbers of
your supporters?!?! They're OBVIOUSLY not posting!

I'm not insecure in kenpo, I don't know enough to be secure or
insecure. But I DO KNOW that I used to come here and actually
learn a thing or two, and since yours, MJS' and TOD's arrival .. that
has happened, but very rarely. I also know that the 3 of you
have knowledge that far exceeds mine, and that's never been
an issue. It's also not an issue of what other kenpoists can and
can't bear to discuss .. I just want to discuss something fricken
else for a change! I guess you feel quite happy with yourself, for
dominating a board and losing the vivid flavor it once had.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Kirk:

I've made about 250 posts in three months. Didn't realize that was dominating the forum. I've tried to tone down my rhetoric and I've tried to post Kenpo oriented (rather than cross-training advocacy) on several threads. I've also avoided several Kenpo technical threads where others are more qualified to answer than I am. My objective in reading this forum is to learn. My objective in posting here is to provide an alternative viewpoint. This is motivated by a pro-Kenpo concern that some Kenpoists are becoming very tradition-bound while the martial arts world is undergoing a major transformation.

A few people have PM'd or e-mailed me to express appreciation for my posts. A few others have posted their objection to the cross-training "hijack" on a couple of threads. You are the first to tell me that you think my presense has seriously detracted from the site.

I'll try to take a constructive approach wherever I can. I'll try to talk about Kenpo whenever I have something to contribute. I'll avoid threads where I have nothing to contribute. But, I will continue to opine about training methodologies and techniques wherever I think an alternative perspective can benefit a Kenpoist.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Billings:
what he did do, is provide us with a framework, and conceptual basis for analyzation of what is and is not USLESS. Don't you think he would have eliminated a training horse or basics from the system if he did not see value? I think he would have!!! I see the value, just because you can't does not mean, "Your opinion is correct."

Yikes, looks like we have a little thread leakage from the technical forum. Mr. Parker appears to have been a "Middle of the Road" man. If you don't think so then answer this question: Was everybody who ever tested in front of him judged with the same standards? How about this one, when Mr. P changed things in the association did he demand that everyone change with him? Just because there are things in the system doesn't necessarily mean that he wanted to keep them there. Being a good business man means keeping the clientele happy, and it sure is hard to keep them happy when you disrupt their technique order or the # of techniques or even the way you do the techniques. If you don't believe me, look at the reasons people left over the years and all of the goofy arguments that are all over this forum. Here's an example Whats better 32-24-16 tech system?
Well by your argument the 16 tech system would be the best since that was his final incarnation that he was trying to disseminate to the community. Mr. Parker undoubtedly kept a lot of things he didn't like, and let people do a lot of things that he didn't agree with because he was a middle of the road kind of guy and knew how to run a BUSINESS. That doesn't mean that he didn't teach CERTAIN people to be great kenpoists, it just means while he was teaching them he was also running a business.

Yes, I could make do with 20 or 30 to defend myself, but that is not the complete goal in understanding or executing the sophisticated system that we all study. The techniques give us a vehicle for finding applications, from any possible position in which we may find ourselves. Try it with anyone in the Art over 20 years, and I bet they will use a piece of a technique whether seated, laying down or standing on their heads . Heck, you don't have to be at it 20 years, I just wanted you to have some perspective, and realize some of the Seniors do read this Board, they don't comment on the forum, but in private, the shake their heads, laugh, and say "they just don't get it".

Look, I personally think Kenpo is a great art, but I also think that some of the SOLUTIONS that kenpo provides to topics like groundfighting are virtually inadequate and in some cases could get you hurt pretty bad. How is this for an analogy? There are certain instances where your family practice doctor can perform surgery on you. Now would you rather have someone who performs this particular surgery once every two years, or would you rather have a specialist who does 5 a day. That's the way I look at the groundfighting issue, sure kenpo offers a solution to everything but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is the best solution. I believe kenpo is what it is, which is a standup fighting art. Just because you do a technique on the ground doesn't mean you know groundfighting.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

A very good point was made a while back...

Kenpoists need to be able to react spontaneously in a self-defense drill or street situation. Enough alternatives need to be learned to enable the Kenpoist to respond with instant effectiveness in a large variety of situation. I believe this can be done with 16, 24, 25, 30, 32, 40, or however-many techniques per belt.

The important question is not how many techniques are required per belt. The important question is what level of proficiency is required per belt. Required proficiency must include the ability to choose and/or create techniques on the fly when the attack is unknown or does not unfold according to plan.

Technique training must develop the ability for spontaneous reaction at some point in the student's training. At my school, this requirement started very early and was part of every test starting at Orange Belt. Brown Belts had to be able to respond effectively to unplanned or unknown attacks during technique drills. By Black Belt, spontaneous reaction during technique-line had to generate techniques of equal or greater complexity and effectiveness as the canned techniques each and every time.

That ability to spontaneously execute effective techniques separated the Brown Belts from the lower belts and the Black Belts from the Brown Belts much more than the actual number of techniques memorized.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Kirk:

I've made about 250 posts in three months. Didn't realize that was dominating the forum. I've tried to tone down my rhetoric and I've tried to post Kenpo oriented (rather than cross-training advocacy) on several threads. I've also avoided several Kenpo technical threads where others are more qualified to answer than I am. My objective in reading this forum is to learn. My objective in posting here is to provide an alternative viewpoint. This is motivated by a pro-Kenpo concern that some Kenpoists are becoming very tradition-bound while the martial arts world is undergoing a major transformation.

A few people have PM'd or e-mailed me to express appreciation for my posts. A few others have posted their objection to the cross-training "hijack" on a couple of threads. You are the first to tell me that you think my presense has seriously detracted from the site.

I'll try to take a constructive approach wherever I can. I'll try to talk about Kenpo whenever I have something to contribute. I'll avoid threads where I have nothing to contribute. But, I will continue to opine about training methodologies and techniques wherever I think an alternative perspective can benefit a Kenpoist.

Well, I for one, appreciate people like OFK, TOD, Kenpo Yahoo and the others! Keep up the great posts guys!

I dont believe that any of us has every told anyone to stop training. I've said this hundreds of times, and yeah, its beating a dead horse, but rather than always put the people who cross train down, why not look at it from our point of view jsut for a min. and ask why we like to crosstrain and what can get gotten from it.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
[
Look, I personally think Kenpo is a great art, but I also think that some of the SOLUTIONS that kenpo provides to topics like groundfighting are virtually inadequate and in some cases could get you hurt pretty bad. How is this for an analogy? There are certain instances where your family practice doctor can perform surgery on you. Now would you rather have someone who performs this particular surgery once every two years, or would you rather have a specialist who does 5 a day. That's the way I look at the groundfighting issue, sure kenpo offers a solution to everything but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is the best solution. I believe kenpo is what it is, which is a standup fighting art. Just because you do a technique on the ground doesn't mean you know groundfighting. [/B]

You are correct. It does offer SOME solutions, but many stand a good chance of not working. Thinking that you're gonna be able to reach someones face, while they are sitting on top of you punching down at you is not gonna happen. There is too great a reach advantage for the top guy. Knowing what to do to escape and get back to your feet where you can continue to use the strikes and kicks is the goal, not roll for 20 min.

Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

Personally, I get pretty tired of the, "you've ruined the discussion," claims. Which I too get from time to time...there's kvetching on KenpoNet right now, apparently because I asked somebody who they were and what their point was...typically, it seems to be that the folks who receive these claims haven't kowtowed enough to say, Bruce Lee, or haven't agreed fast enough...

I wish folks would use their real names, that's for sure. And I despise some of the cowardly, anonymous attacks I've read (no, NOT OFK...haven't seen any personal attacks, just stubborn disagreements, what I take for inaccuracies, and at times some pomposity, the last of which I am not in a position to complain about)...but in the end, it's just words, just a forum.

As for the last post...I find that what I tend to disagree with people about is the nature of teaching in kenpo. Spontaneity after internalization, I think...not fingerpainting passed off as creativity....

 

[MJS]

As for making posts that are more closly related to Kenpo--- I've seen many on here. However, its only a matter of time, before a poster makes a comment that gets totally blown up and misunderstood by others, and then that person is accused of talking about cross training. Even if it is a topic that is soley about Kenpo, rather than try to have a polite discussion, the egos of some who appear to know more than others, and think nothing about bragging about it, make a negative comment towards that person. This in turn, starts a verbal war. Why the negative responses? Why cant a simple explaination be given? If these people are such high ranks and have a high skill level as they say, then the answer they give should be more professional

Mike

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Robert: Thank you. I admit the sins of stubbornness, pomposity, and frequent inaccuracy. My wife frequently reminds me of these faults. As for using a psuedonym rather than my real name...my real name is in my profile. Few people in EPAK know me so it wouldn't make me any less anonymous than my psuedonym.

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Spontaneity after internalization, I think...not fingerpainting passed off as creativity....

You can have many different movements in different stages at once. So the spontaneity of a movement may occur at the same time you're trying to internalize other.

I think it was the Goldendragon the one who stated that you should have internalized the techniques from two belts below your current degree.

Also, fwiw, I believe that there are people out there which aren't creative enough to get too far on the spontaneity stage, or even never arrive there. For these people, having 600 techs, like in Tracy's kenpo, may be an important issue.

Not everybody is capable of being a master, and not everybody wants to be one (a master's life is not easy).

Just my opinion.

And thanks OFK and Robert for bringing this thread back on topic.