Are all these techs needed?

[Kenpomachine]

OFK, I don't know how you train techniques, but you're assuming all kenpo people train with cooperative partnerts, and that's not true. That's up to schools' instructors.

But I agree with most of what you said about what diferentiates kenpo from other systems.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Kenpomachine: I've seen Kenpo schools where the partner's don't cooperate. But I've never seen one where you have two opponents and one says "I am going to do Dance of Death" and you try and stop me while the other one says "Oh Yeah! I am going to do Entwined Maces, let's see who wins!"

Technique training needs to start with a solo practitioner learning the movements in the air. Then it needs to progress to practice on a fully cooperating partner. Then it needs to progress to a resisting partner who is covering targets/blocking/evading. Finally, it needs to progress to a fully resisting partner who is simultaneously trying to execute his own techniques and defeat you.

This last stage is the basis of sport combatives and is the one I've never seen done with Kenpo techniques. And this difference in training methods is the fundamental question of martial arts training. It is specifically what differentiates sport combatives from Traditional Asian Martial Arts. Kenpo technique training is a valuable innovation, but it doesn't completely bridge the gap.

 

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
...

The headlock is a very common attack used especially by people with wrestling experience.

The side headlock that is applied in the ideal phase of this technique is not a common attack used by people in wrestling, at least with all the grapplers I have come across. The reason is this position is not the most adventageous place to apply leverage on the opponent for the takedown. In fact it places the guy in the headlock in a better position for a takedown of his own.

I would say any person who puts you in a headlock with their hips much higher then yours while in this tight isnt a very
skilled grappler.

However, I would say that the side headlock is very common with
the basic street fighter out there..........for some reason?

Just My Opinion

 

[Michael Billings]

OFK,

Excellent analysis of a complex issue. Or rather simplicity compounded, and worthy of discussion.

In sparring class on Saturday, we spent about half the time up, and half "down." It was not pre-arranged, it was the natural flow of the type of street sparring I do. The resistance level goes up as the distance decreases. I am not saying we were not hitting hard ... my students were! And interestingly enough, and somewhat different, the injuries I had that day were from the impact, not the grappling. Great fun, as always, but talking levers, fulcrums, and utilizing the language Mr. Parker gave us about cancelling zones or immobilizing, contact manipulations, checks, etc. is just another way of articulating what we were doing.

Did I mention I think and analyze it in terms of Principles, Concepts, & Theories of Kenpo - and base lots of the moves on pieces of techniques we do standing?

 

[Kenpomachine]

OFK, while I agree completely and wholeheartedly with your second paragraph, I have to say that I know of many schools were that last stage is also practiced in many ways. And it's not just the ones I know in Spain, which more or less share the same lineage, but also heard about them in here and from people in Sweden.

We even have something similar for basics, when the attacker has to hit again if the defender doesn't cover or reply effectively. But it's funnier when we go two or three to one, and you have to defend and the attackers are free to do whatever they want, coordinate their attacks. Of course, they won't tell beforehand how are they gonna attack.

I have to recognize that we don't do this a lot though. And also that most of us in our class take pieces of techniques to defend, or even no preset techniques at all.

However, the purpose we do it is more to be able to react under pressure and defend ourselves than being able to do a certain technique. Creativity is allowed and encouraged

 

[Kenpomachine]

Hey, the second message on favorite sparring drills gives another example of uncooperative partnerts: the ring of fire!!

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by pineapple head
Clyde, thanks for the effort you put into your reply.


Have a great Kenpo day.

Gary.

You're so welcome, I'm always happy to assist.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

NO, nobody HAS to learn this, but some of us want to, and thrive on it. So maybe you don't. OK with me, it is not detracting from my or my student's training. It is only your loss, as anyone who has spent decades with the art will tell you.

Let me put it to you this way. I know Five swords. Through very minor modifications I can make this technique work against:
Punches
1) The inside of a right punch
2) The inside of a left punch
3) The outside of a right punch
4) The outside of a left punch
Kicks
1) See the examples from
2) above, just substitute
3) the word kick for
4) the word punch.

Now I can cover 8 attacks with one technique, instead of having to learn 8 different techniques with 8 different approaches. Someone likened kenpo to the english language and even proceeded to use mock sentences to illustrate their point.

Or you'd rather be a baby? Mommy, water. Mommy, food. That's also a conversation, though with a very limited vocabulary.

Unfortunately most of you guys, out there in kenpoland, view things as black and white when grey is what might work best. The above illustration is tantamount to BLOCK-CHOP, or BLOCK-KICK, or even BLOCK-KICK-CHOP (hey look at that.... Delayed Sword), something you might find in a SCARS's tape or another similiar system.

There are a number of techniques within the realm of kenpo that function as Master Keys. Instead of teaching a bunch of random techniques that require completely different movements from the various points of origin, why not learn how to make a small group of techniques work from as many places as possible. I realize that there are those that enjoy learning a bunch of techniques, but I sometimes wonder if they are receiving any benefit from the additional material, or simply becoming technique collectors. It's fine by me if you want to be a collector, but I'd rather be proficient and functional (I guess that's just me).

Learn all the words you want, but if you don't know how to use them in a sentence then it doesn't really matter; does it?

 

[satans.barber]

Hmm, time for my 2p maybe.

The system I do (and, well, teach now I suppose) doesn't have as many techniques.

yellow 4
orange 4
purple 4
blue 8
green 10
b3 10
b2 12
b1 12
----
64

...64 techniques to black belt (http://www.satansbarber.co.uk/kemporyu/guides/techniques/techguide.htm). I guess that's compared to 122/178 techniques to black belt in a 16/24 EPAK school.

Personally, no, I don't think that you need all teh techniques that EPAK teaches. Do I think we do enough though? Probably not, but that wasn't my descision and it's all I've got, so that's what I'm sticking by.

I've got my black belt grading in 8 weeks, and to this point i've done 6.5 years training, so I wouldn't necessarily say that it's a whole lot shorter than the average times to BB Mr. Billings quoted in another thread (or was it this one? I'm hot and tired...).

The question is then, if I'm doing less techniques, but spending the same amount of time as people doing twice as many, what am I arseing about at? Well, perfecting myself I suppose. To my mind, a smaller skillset of higger quality is still worth more than a broader skillset of lower quality.

But also, spending less time on techniques gives me more time to spend in impact training, improv, discussion etc. etc., so maybe that makes me a better fighter? Who knows...

At the end of the day, we're all individual fighrers, and individual people, usning no way as way, having no limitation as limitation...what gets one of us to the best of our abilities won't get someone else there - some may thrive on techniques, some may thrive on role play, so teh answer to the question is a lemon.

I guess one way to tell would be to throw me i a ring with an EPAK black belt and see who got their **** kicked :shrug:

Ian.

p.s. the heat may have got to me

 

[kkbb]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Let me put it to you this way. I know Five swords. Through very minor modifications I can make this technique work against:
Punches
1) The inside of a right punch
2) The inside of a left punch
3) The outside of a right punch
4) The outside of a left punch
Kicks
1) See the examples from
2) above, just substitute
3) the word kick for
4) the word punch.

Now I can cover 8 attacks with one technique, instead of having to learn 8 different techniques with 8 different approaches. Someone likened kenpo to the english language and even proceeded to use mock sentences to illustrate their point.



Unfortunately most of you guys, out there in kenpoland, view things as black and white when grey is what might work best. The above illustration is tantamount to BLOCK-CHOP, or BLOCK-KICK, or even BLOCK-KICK-CHOP (hey look at that.... Delayed Sword), something you might find in a SCARS's tape or another similiar system.

There are a number of techniques within the realm of kenpo that function as Master Keys. Instead of teaching a bunch of random techniques that require completely different movements from the various points of origin, why not learn how to make a small group of techniques work from as many places as possible. I realize that there are those that enjoy learning a bunch of techniques, but I sometimes wonder if they are receiving any benefit from the additional material, or simply becoming technique collectors. It's fine by me if you want to be a collector, but I'd rather be proficient and functional (I guess that's just me).

Learn all the words you want, but if you don't know how to use them in a sentence then it doesn't really matter; does it?

It's about time somebody says it!

 

[Fastmover]

"The secret of the martial arts is not to have knowledge of twenty-four things as it is knowing four things, Parker said. That is the key to all keys. It's more important to learn four moves and the twenty-four ways in which you can rearrange them.
Parker said if he can teach a student just four basic moves, there is then a total of twenty-four combinations in which those moves may be used. Increase the basic four moves to five, and the total of available combinations rises geometrically to 120. "

Just Id add this to the conversation to see what folks might say
about this.

Also along Mr Parker's journey with his system, he deleted and/or
stopped teaching certain things in the main stream. What gives
and why?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by satans.barber
Hmm, time for my 2p maybe.

The system I do (and, well, teach now I suppose) doesn't have as many techniques.

yellow 4
orange 4
purple 4
blue 8
green 10
b3 10
b2 12
b1 12
----
64

...64 techniques to black belt (http://www.satansbarber.co.uk/kemporyu/guides/techniques/techguide.htm). I guess that's compared to 122/178 techniques to black belt in a 16/24 EPAK school.

Personally, no, I don't think that you need all teh techniques that EPAK teaches. Do I think we do enough though? Probably not, but that wasn't my descision and it's all I've got, so that's what I'm sticking by.

I've got my black belt grading in 8 weeks, and to this point i've done 6.5 years training, so I wouldn't necessarily say that it's a whole lot shorter than the average times to BB Mr. Billings quoted in another thread (or was it this one? I'm hot and tired...).

The question is then, if I'm doing less techniques, but spending the same amount of time as people doing twice as many, what am I arseing about at? Well, perfecting myself I suppose. To my mind, a smaller skillset of higger quality is still worth more than a broader skillset of lower quality.

But also, spending less time on techniques gives me more time to spend in impact training, improv, discussion etc. etc., so maybe that makes me a better fighter? Who knows...

At the end of the day, we're all individual fighrers, and individual people, usning no way as way, having no limitation as limitation...what gets one of us to the best of our abilities won't get someone else there - some may thrive on techniques, some may thrive on role play, so teh answer to the question is a lemon.

I guess one way to tell would be to throw me i a ring with an EPAK black belt and see who got their **** kicked :shrug:

Ian.

p.s. the heat may have got to me

SB,
You have plenty of techs. The truth is you could have fewer and not be any worse off. Training what you've got against a diversity of attacks is more important than creating a diversity of responses to a single attack. Most of the people responding negativly to this concept are in fact beholden to there intructors wants, beliefs, and desires. The only way to redeem yourself would be to become one of them. Then ,god forbid, the person they hook you up with should fall out of favor with the Big Dog of said system and you would end up right back where you started.
I suggest you just train hard and keep an open mind to the many different methods of the same thing... self defense.
Sean

 

[rmcrobertson]

And what you fail to see, Sarris, is that MY ship is dragging mines...no wait...where was I?

Oh yes. The problem y'all are having is that you're confusing intellectual knowledge achieved after long practice with the way students, generally speaking, need to be taught.

There are a lot of things to be learned, through learning a pack of techniques, and a method or three of "efficient fighting," is only part of them.

 

[Fastmover]

Wouldnt it be great if someone could get one technique to work
against everything?

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Fastmover: That's what 12-guage shotguns are for!

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Let me put it to you this way. I know Five swords. Through very minor modifications I can make this technique work against:
Punches
1) The inside of a right punch
2) The inside of a left punch
3) The outside of a right punch
4) The outside of a left punch
Kicks
1) See the examples from
2) above, just substitute
3) the word kick for
4) the word punch.

Now I can cover 8 attacks with one technique, instead of having to learn 8 different techniques with 8 different approaches. Someone likened kenpo to the english language and even proceeded to use mock sentences to illustrate their point.

5 Swords against a kick? Can you explain that one?

Mike

 

[Touch Of Death]

Yea its called star block used both offensivly and defensively. With that you need not learn a single parker tech. You can make them up for reference ( which is why they were created) or just rely on your masterkey idea... "targets"

 

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Yea its called star block used both offensivly and defensively. With that you need not learn a single parker tech. You can make them up for reference ( which is why they were created) or just rely on your masterkey idea... "targets"

You are a pretty sharp guy! The master Key Idea is what I had
in mind when I ask that question.

 

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by MJS

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo


5 Swords against a kick? Can you explain that one?

Mike

Detour From Doom

 

[Michael Billings]

In Long 7 is used against a Right Kick - Right Punch Combination. It is Five Swords, but with sticks. I use the block against the Kick in Long 4, can anyone guess if it is the right side or left side where this is done (it is not both!)

Oss