Applied Wing Chun is almost karate

[JPinAZ]

Here's Jackie Chan vs. "Tony." Yeah great applied wing chun[?]. Yeah, superb karate can aspire to this level... the mental discipline it takes is so much greater too....
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Favorite demo @ 1:24. This is why - IMO - virtually no non-kung fu stylist can stand up to bona fide kung fu stylist.

Did I miss something again or maybe you are implying sarcasm here? If not, you realize this is a choreographed movie fight scene right?
But if you really believe the last statement above, do you base this on anything more than movie clips?

 

[wckf92]

Did I miss something again or maybe you are implying sarcasm here? If not, you realize this is a choreographed movie fight scene right?
But if you really believe the last statement above, do you base this on anything more than movie clips?

Hence why I abandoned this very weird conversation JP! I can't make heads or tails of this shotonoobs writing...

 

[Jake104]

I think the point was that his Wing Chun is named 'Combat WC' and is done so simply to show respect to its root while still focusing more on sharpening a few of the techniques rather than being a jack-of-all-techniques. It could just as simply be named 'ABC guide to a good combat experience' but such a name would just get someone to complain that it is too similar to WC.

It is WC, just a bit of different focus from what I hear. Problem is that if techniques are removed in order to sharpen others, the next generation might not know the techniques exist and are unable to sharpen what would work best for them but rather enforce usage of other techniques. How is this mitigated in 'Combat WC', a question of pure curiousity.

See nothing wrong in sharpening, it is one of those words my sifu mentions all the time. It is the way we study as well but perhaps slightly less sharpening as we dont leave techniques out but rather validate their use to ourself before moving on.

Thanks for pretty much summing up my part of this thread. Been busy, now I check back and this thread has wondered off into the abyss.

I have learned "traditional" from two different sources. First one I was with for a substantial amount of time. Second I was only with for 6 months and even that teaching wasn't technically "traditional". Basically it was 6 months of making my WC better. Per the deal we had, and it did.

Now I'm learning WC in a bit of a different way. I already have the traditional method for the most part. So I'm learning what 'I' like to call the 4th demension of the art. Here's what I mean by that.

So in the forms you learn 3 applications for every technique? Well, now I'am being taught the 4th 5th-100th. Now I'am learning methods or ideas not techniques. We still go through the traditional 3 and the rest of the traditional stuff ( maybe even stuff I haven't traditionally learned yet?) because if I didn't have that, I'd have no foundation and all the 4th demension crap wouldn't matter. In essence it would be like building a structure on sand. It would be "reduntant" or useless, cause i wouldn't have a solid foundation to build upon. So in other words, I really wouldn't get the advanced stuff. Which is really just basic stuff looked at from a different perspective. Oooh look at that " the secret sauce" is revealed.

This is why I think there are some people on here that get what I say, and I get what they say. They too are in the "4th demension" (again this is MY buzz word, so it means nothing. Kind of like Snake engine lol). Then, there are others that just don't get it. They are stuck in techniques and there abc's.

Oh well, good luck to all! Different strokes for different folks. I will say, the proof is always in the pudding though. And the early bird gets the worm.

I'm guessing, I like to use proverbial phrases?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Nah bro. All tma is as good as the teacher who can teach it, the student can apply himself to it, and the unbrokenness of its ma.
Its a spectrum.

What you call Oki Karate is Chuan fa or Kung fu.
You are saying one is a weaker cousin.
I say both are spectrums and its hard to compare two such vast array of systems.

Cma > oma > jma =/- kma

Vs
Cma +/=/- all.

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I get it. But I still maintain my position. opinions vary.
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Tnx for the neat sum up in your reply....

 

[ShotoNoob]

While I also have no idea what this thread is really going on about, there are a few thing I will comment on.

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Well, neither does that Izzo? WC master instructor... some agreement on that... but he thinks he's got it all figured out. His PRESSURE TESTING AGAINST MR. EXPERIENCE BOXER & MR. HUGE GUY 'proves' he's right. Geese.

The first sentence is really clueless IMO, regardless how much bolding one does

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Opinions vary....
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Yeah and you're using smiley's too!

The second is even more clueless. (more in a second on that)

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Well then the TMA I just mentioned I've been visiting is clueless to. Not to mention all of the JKA, etc., etc. And don't forget that S. African Shotokan Master I posted who many here all lauded.
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Pressure testing is for people who want to prove they are better. Building the base is what gets you better.... If you need pressure testing to train TMA, then your TMA training base is deficient.... we've seen many a vid confirming so posted here.

The last 2 are only theoretical - unless you are pressure testing what you are learning. In order to build and qualify actual skill in ANY art, you need pressure testing - has nothing to do with 'traditional', 'sport', WC, karate or anything else..

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Again, your position is in direct contradiction with most of the historical Okinawan karate training. And with CMA as well. Pressure testing the emphasis is largely a western concept.

Without pressure testing you have NO WAY of even knowing what produces what.

Sure you do. Pressure testing gives validation and points out where some corrections & modifications might need to be made. That's correct.
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BIGGER TRUTH: Proven & accepted theory works. I can engineer & build a bridge using engineering & construction practices. How often do newly constructed bridges collapse once use begins? That's called science. Of course martial practitioners who don't really understand what they are doing or supposed to be doing then use pressure testing as a BIG crutch, constantly trying to plug the holes in their swiss-cheese dyke of knowledge....
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Try that on for size. CLUELESS.

Should be applied to the above quote haha (edited for correctness)

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Yeah, ha. If you want to pressure test, train under regular pressure... . by all means go ahead. But don't call that the TMA model 'cause it ain't. The TMA model centers on the individual and the internal development of same..... so EXPLICITLY presented in this club's (I'm visiting) TSD manual, as well as the section on TSD here at martial talk.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Did I miss something? I didn't see anything in the clip except a woman stepping back and doing a few patterned moves in the air without a partner. How is this a demo of defense or how to handle anything? Maybe if she showed it against a real live boxer that isn't trying to go along with a demo, then you might have something. But you can't really be serious that you feel the clip is representative of 'how to handle a boxer'?!?

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Like the smiley... it's a demo... didn't some other posters run this argument into the ground @ other threads....
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Your statement is again, what the adolescent students criticize to the Master I am working, this mindset is what he is encountering....
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Sounds like noise coming from the 'pressure tester' versions of McDojo's.
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As I've stated, I never encountered a boxer I couldn't defeat. And I train just like in the woman 1-step vid. And the TSD school I've visiting uses these. If you think 'pressure testing' is the magic elixir, if may well be for how you train. But's that's not TMA theory. Does make for great marketing to prospective students who lack intellectual capacity of a college student....
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EDIT: So yeah, you missed what TMA theory is all about.... Bestof luck with that/....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Thanks for pretty much summing up my part of this thread. Been busy, now I check back and this thread has wondered off into the abyss.

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abyss? You mean you can't address my points....
[edit]

Oh well, good luck to all! Different strokes for different folks. I will say, the proof is always in the pudding though. And the early bird gets the worm.

I'm guessing, I like to use proverbial phrases?

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I have no idea what substance is in "phobias" post. "True to roots yet sharpening techniques for combat?" Again, thinking one is better because you've learned how to 'improve' WC? So over-generalized. Again, sounds like a marketing program,Like that YT WC vs. Boxer vid. Phobius statement is so over-generalized that's adding what value?
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Every TMA artist is trying to improve. Every TMA artist is seeking to be effective in application. There's this big myth that somehow American's in the 21st Century have devised something better than, some improvement to TMA.... as opposed to really understanding the historical Master's teachings.... Again, an effective marketing program, I'm sure.
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Good luck with that....

 

[ShotoNoob]

I dont quite know why Kime is forbidden in WC.
Mindless Mind is also part of karate.

Mushin. Look it up.
Mushin (mental state) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. ,

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The mental discipline developed & employed in kung fu is critical & even more important and stronger compared to karate. This includes the concept & dynamics of KIME, not exclude it. Same for "mushin."
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A huge value of Ginchin Funakoshi's karate is that he explicitly brought the concept of KIME to our attention and emphasized it's critical importance.

Pay attention to the following link

And also the WC guy could use some KIME in his chain punches. Like the Kyukushin guy has.

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Yeah, the WC guy is horrible. So he got clobbered. That's what your vid shows me. What's it show to you.... that you like Kyo > WC?
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On the vid I edited out, the traditional Okinawan karates pay more attention to ki development, internal energy strength than do the traditional Japanese {modern} karates. i stipulate to that....

 

[Phobius]

Thanks for pretty much summing up my part of this thread. Been busy, now I check back and this thread has wondered off into the abyss.

I have learned "traditional" from two different sources. First one I was with for a substantial amount of time. Second I was only with for 6 months and even that teaching wasn't technically "traditional". Basically it was 6 months of making my WC better. Per the deal we had, and it did.

Now I'm learning WC in a bit of a different way. I already have the traditional method for the most part. So I'm learning what 'I' like to call the 4th demension of the art. Here's what I mean by that.

So in the forms you learn 3 applications for every technique? Well, now I'am being taught the 4th 5th-100th. Now I'am learning methods or ideas not techniques. We still go through the traditional 3 and the rest of the traditional stuff ( maybe even stuff I haven't traditionally learned yet?) because if I didn't have that, I'd have no foundation and all the 4th demension crap wouldn't matter. In essence it would be like building a structure on sand. It would be "reduntant" or useless, cause i wouldn't have a solid foundation to build upon. So in other words, I really wouldn't get the advanced stuff. Which is really just basic stuff looked at from a different perspective. Oooh look at that " the secret sauce" is revealed.

I will ignore the other discussion, too crazy for me. Just replying to you.

So being curious about your style. What you are saying is that the whole dictionary of words (techniques) are still present. It is just that you focus mostly on a few words of those when building sentences in order to learn to phrase yourself better and explain complicated matters while others might still use the words in sentences that does not always make sense? (Meaning the dictionaries are unaltered? SLT, CK and so on...) I hope then that it does not differ much from most WC out there, as I wish for people to study in ways similar to myself because I like it this way. Others may of course not agree and are free to do so, it is just harder for them to prove me wrong in my own mind.

On personal note my level is only now on learning easier phrases, the more complicated sentences are not yet there for me.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Did I miss something again or maybe you are implying sarcasm here? If not, you realize this is a choreographed movie fight scene right?
But if you really believe the last statement above, do you base this on anything more than movie clips?

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shallow response... just negative criticism....

 

[ShotoNoob]

I will ignore the other discussion, too crazy for me. Just replying to you.

So being curious about your style. What you are saying is that the whole dictionary of words (techniques) are still present. It is just that you focus mostly on a few words of those when building sentences in order to learn to phrase yourself better and explain complicated matters while others might still use the words in sentences that does not always make sense?

On personal note my level is only now on learning easier phrases, the more complicated sentences are not yet there for me.

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Again, a generalized analogy great for infomercials.... Doesn't speak to any specifics of the TMA curriculum.
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Yet my "illustrations" are criticized. Be honest. If you want to promote a school, say so. There's marketing & promotions going on at the TSD dojang I'm visiting right now. I don't agree or buy all they say -- they're trying to entice the public to join....that's a whole 'nother art itself.
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Good luck with that...

 

[VT_Vectis]

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Well, neither does that Izzo? WC master instructor... some agreement on that... but he thinks he's got it all figured out. His PRESSURE TESTING AGAINST MR. EXPERIENCE BOXER & MR. HUGE GUY 'proves' he's right. Geese.

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Opinions vary....
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Yeah and you're using smiley's too!

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Well then the TMA I just mentioned I've been visiting is clueless to. Not to mention all of the JKA, etc., etc. And don't forget that S. African Shotokan Master I posted who many here all lauded.
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Pressure testing is for people who want to prove they are better. Building the base is what gets you better.... If you need pressure testing to train TMA, then your TMA training base is deficient.... we've seen many a vid confirming so posted here.

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Again, your position is in direct contradiction with most of the historical Okinawan karate training. And with CMA as well. Pressure testing the emphasis is largely a western concept.

Sure you do. Pressure testing gives validation and points out where some corrections & modifications might need to be made. That's correct.
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BIGGER TRUTH: Proven & accepted theory works. I can engineer & build a bridge using engineering & construction practices. How often do newly constructed bridges collapse once use begins? That's called science. Of course martial practitioners who don't really understand what they are doing or supposed to be doing then use pressure testing as a BIG crutch, constantly trying to plug the holes in their swiss-cheese dyke of knowledge....
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Try that on for size. CLUELESS.

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Yeah, ha. If you want to pressure test, train under regular pressure... . by all means go ahead. But don't call that the TMA model 'cause it ain't. The TMA model centers on the individual and the internal development of same..... so EXPLICITLY presented in this club's (I'm visiting) TSD manual, as well as the section on TSD here at martial talk.

I don't agree with relying on Sifu YouTube to make a point, yet you seem to rely on it as evidence so here it goes

That's what happens without learning how to get hit , pressure testing, and just "swimming on dry land". He wasn't even trying that hard.

Now I've dipped my toes in , I'll leave it alone.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I don't agree with relying on Sifu YouTube to make a point, yet you seem to rely on it as evidence so here it goes

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You mean that since you don't have an answer.... you won't accept my illustrations.... I get it.
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That's what happens without learning how to get hit , pressure testing, and just "swimming on dry land". He wasn't even trying that hard.

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Again, see my position statement:
QUALIFIER: IF ONE DOESN'T TRAIN TMA WITH MENTAL DISCIPLINE.... WHICH IS WHAT DEFINES TMA VS. NON-TMA MARTIAL ARTS...
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That said, you will have very large following believing in your PRESSURE TESTING approach. You will get results with PRESSURE TESTING. But it is not TMA.

Now I've dipped my toes in , I'll leave it alone.

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There is a large community in martial that supports and adheres to your position. Go with it....

 

[ShotoNoob]

I don't agree with relying on Sifu YouTube to make a point, yet you seem to rely on it as evidence so here it goes
[edit out vid, see VT's original post above]
That's what happens without learning how to get hit , pressure testing, and just "swimming on dry land". He wasn't even trying that hard.

Now I've dipped my toes in , I'll leave it alone.

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Instead of the rhetoric replies I've been getting [swimming on dry land,etc.], I'll set forth by TMA principles, here traditional karate,
what's wrong with your YT vid 'evidence.' Not all the reasons, but highlight key ones...
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Incidentally, I luv the vid... proves my point(s)
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1. The 'karate' guys are scoring points with light contact akin to sport karate rules.
2. The boxer's are hitting with hard contact according to boxing rules.
3. The 'karate' guys are moving & bouncing all over the place, in contraction to the 1-Step vid / Vintage TSD / TMA YT Vid posted by none other than TSDTEXAN. In your YT Vid, the 'karate' guys defense is built around running away. Their defense is as close to 100% incompetent by the traditional karate curriculum as one can get... The famous Monty Python Defense: RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY.
4. The 'karate' guys are closing the distance without a plan, hoping to land a haphazard, single technique.
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So VT, you've taken the traditional karate model along with Gichin Funakoshi's curriculum & thrown it out the window, then claim the traditional karate doesn't hold up against pressure testing....
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I do luv that vid... tnx for posting. And VT, when doing your swimming don't forget to "shake it out, shake it out."

 

[ShotoNoob]

HERE'S THE TKD BACKFIST BREAK FAIL YT VID.

A few salient points (TMA Points):
1. We have 'karate guys' in VT-Vectis's YT vid fighting with so-called karate on par with the members in this TKD class.
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2. IOW, Recreationally-oriented karateka or at the best, Beginner-level sport karateka going up against decent hard contact boxers....
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I have no doubt from VT's YT vid, that the boxer's would wipe out every single student in the TKD class above... as if we wonder why!!!
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3. The only interesting moral I see here... is how in this Backfist Miss YT vid I have here, the question whether the two Black-Gi'd TKD Instructors could stand up to some pressure testing, say like in the VT_Vectis Karate vs. Boxing vid. Would be humorous & highly entertaining however it turned out, I'm sure....
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Their knowledge of traditional TKD as imparted by their students, including the black-belts is (I have no words).

 

[TSDTexan]

I don't agree with relying on Sifu YouTube to make a point, yet you seem to rely on it as evidence so here it goes

That's what happens without learning how to get hit , pressure testing, and just "swimming on dry land". He wasn't even trying that hard.

Now I've dipped my toes in , I'll leave it alone.

I will also leave it alone after the following.
We have no visable sign of ranking/training advancement for the boxer... so a skill level mismatch is likekly present.
Secondly, this is distance jka type karate post shotokan era,
This is very much not the infighting that wins against boxing like motobu choki used. No backpedals, solid defense plus advances.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I will also leave it alone after the following.
1. We have no visable sign of ranking/training advancement for the boxer... so a skill level mismatch is likekly present.
2. Secondly, this is distance jka type karate post shotokan era,
3. This is very much not the infighting that wins against boxing like motobu choki used. No backpedals, solid defense plus advances.

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Hey tnx for the follow up.
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1. Agreed.
2. In form, I agree. But that is all it is. Empty form. And this kumite convention evolved later than Funakoshi's official curriculum. The 'distance fighting' is a partial subset of Shotokan kumite & kumite training proper. Only a portion, only a conventional sport strategy...
3. Exactly. Or as presented in my and your 1-step YT vids where the karateka moves in & engages --- not simply springs all around & trades a punch or kick here or there.... again GESSE....

 

[ShotoNoob]

AS I'VE SAID, I'M NOT A BIG FAN OF SHOTOKAN, BUT:
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HERE'S HOW COMPETENT SHOTOKAN karateka WOULD HANDLE MR. EXPERIENCE BOXER (Ha!)\
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I can criticize this high-ranking JKA Shotokan Master. I can find aspects I don't like about Shotokan and point them out. I can agree that Okinawan karate is more sophisticated.
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The bottom line is that The Shotokan Master here actively engages the opponent and ends the fight quickly & efficiently. It's a demo of how good, TRADITIONAL Shotokan does so.
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Tying back to WC, ramp up the TMA principles displayed here by about 50x, and you have bona-fide WC.

After you shake it out, good luck with that....
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EDIT" Basically what i have posted in action....

 

[wckf92]

this would / might be so fascinating...if it were taking place over on the shotokan forum...or the boxing forum...or the karate forum...or the...

 

[ShotoNoob]

this would / might be so fascinating...if it were taking place over on the shotokan forum...or the boxing forum...or the karate forum...or the...

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As opposed to the YT Vid VT-Vecits put up? Ha, yeah.
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Great diverting answer.... the issues I raised? WC vs. karate (part of the thread contains karate). TMA principles are universal...
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Pressure test away, then "shake it out....(see Backfist fail YT vid for both pressure testing & shaking it out)"