Applied Wing Chun is almost karate

[ShotoNoob]

There is a great deal of debate where Hwang Kee actually got his Karate from. He claims from books. But he also trained and learned "chinese forms" from a Korean who trained under Toyama Sensei (and this Korean was trading CMA art for OMA with Toyama, and both were under the Imperial bootheel)

But I have my reasons to think G. Yamaguichi taught Hwang Kee a bit in Manchuria while they were there at the same time.

Hwang Kee says Yamaguichi is a close personal friend of his.

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Well having witnessed some Tang Soo Do first person... I would say the blending of TMA other than Shotokan was a certain plus. TKD too, can be more fluid and not so physical & overly-aggressive as some of the Japanese karates. We saw so in that excellent TKD-kickboxer YT vid someone here posted....a while ago.
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EDIT: The TSD School {dojang} I recently visited claims northern Shaolin kung fu in it's style as a secondary influence...

 

[TSDTexan]

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Here's TSD principles on how to handle the boxer, explained bya Female TSD instructor. One not standing around, lollygagging like in my TKD fail backfist break vid... ha ha...

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It's not that you have no idea of what I'm saying, it's that you don't have any idea of what this TSD Master instructor is saying.... Therein lies the total issue. IN the form of the "static" exercise the WC instructor & Danny T are complaining about....
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I don't see her demo as "static." I don't see her running into her opponent with no defense. I don't see her remaining stationary. I see a (i) Start, (ii) Couple of complementary, synchronized moves CONTAINED in a specific body movement, & a Finnish. Is that static? I see some definite intent in her actions... who here talked about intent.? I see definite KIME, & probably chi involvement (sorry guys, I don't think she's @ the chi-ball level.).... I don;t see her trading punches (like Mr. Boxer who's got "Ring Experience") which we see in the poor quality striking so prevalent in MMA or typical sport karate.
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Overall, most important, I see mental discipline. She knows what she wants to do and does precisely that in the face of an attack... World's apart from the behavior of so-called TMA striking experts in the Gracie demo vids... WC is leaps & bounds above the straightforward dynamics demo'd here... REAL WC, that is...
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Mr. WC Instructor in my YT vid above... good luck with that... IMHO you'll need it/

And yet... it is still so far from its tsd roots as shown in some old 8mm films.

 

[ShotoNoob]

RUMBLE IN THE BRONX... THE WING CHUN CONEPT DONE CORRECT....

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Here's Jackie Chan vs. "Tony." Yeah great applied wing chun[?]. Yeah, superb karate can aspire to this level... the mental discipline it takes is so much greater too....
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Favorite demo @ 1:24. This is why - IMO - virtually no non-kung fu stylist can stand up to bona fide kung fu stylist.
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Sport karate competitors like Machida, best of luck with this......
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Caveat: Jackie Chan a natural acrobat.

 

[TSDTexan]

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Well having witnessed some Tang Soo Do first person... I would say the blending of TMA other than Shotokan was a certain plus. TKD too, can be more fluid and not so physical & overly-aggressive as some of the Japanese karates. We saw so in that excellent TKD-kickboxer YT vid someone here posted....a while ago.
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EDIT: The TSD School {dojang} I recently visited claims northern Shaolin kung fu in it's style as a secondary influence...

Well the unproven claim of Hwang Kee was traing in Yang style Taichi. He only taught this 88 movement and a longer 150 movement yang family Taichi form. The problem is we cant find his teach or school in manchuria.

 

[ShotoNoob]

And yet... it is still so far from its tsd roots as shown in some old 8mm films.

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Funakoshi made this clear when he developed the Shotokan curriculum. The 1-steps are the same training that you show.... the exact same principles are developed & employed. The 1-step isolates out the more involved complete training to foster focus on applied kumite dynamics.... the mental ones.... the mental ones, the mental ones... the mental ones.... especially KIME development & application in a simulated confrontational setting.... KIME, kime, kime, kime.... as apposed to our WC expert in my YT vid aimlessly running into MR. Experienced Boxer's right counter cross. As opposed to those Gracie karate / KUNG FU foils aimlessly facing off against Gracie clan members....
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First & hugely big lesson in Ms. TSD 1-steP I YT vid just posted. THERE IS NOTHING AIMLESS ABOUT ANYTHING SHE DOES MENTALLY OR PHYSICALLY, DOWN TO THE EYELASH. Her 3-stage demo has zero aimlessness. ZERO. Now ramp up the 'aimlessness' in TSD by a factor of 50 to 100 & you have Wing Chun.
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TMA critics, good luck with that....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Well the unproven claim of Hwang Kee was traing in Yang style Taichi. He only taught this 88 movement and a longer 150 movement yang family Taichi form. The problem is we cant find his teach or school in manchuria.

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That's ok. I'm a karate fighter. I studied Shotokan & related traditional kararte's to get the universal principles. I think TSD has some improvements or better qualities over the JKA Shotokan karate. Based on examination of universal TMA principles.
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here's laszlo again. he's like me (i'm not that bookish.).

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Ok, laszlo is not a self-defense expert here @ martial talk... In terms of the TMA base, however, there is nothing aimless about laszlo. NOthing. In terms of building the real TMA base... be it Shotokan or WC, Laszlo is on his way... is showing the way.... precise use of whole body strength + KIME.
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Laugh @ laszlo... at your own peril.....
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EDIT: Laszlo relies a lot on body mechanics to break the board. that's often true of most karate styles.... WC relies more on internal energy to break the board.... Hence what seems to be more "static" in WC actually is propelled by internal power, not larger physical movement.... WC wannabees. good luck with that....
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EDIT: lot's to mull over..... signing off.

 

[TSDTexan]

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Funakoshi made this clear when he developed the Shotokan curriculum. The 1-steps are the same training that you show.... the exact same principles are developed & employed. The 1-step isolates out the more involved complete training to foster focus on applied kumite dynamics.... the mental ones.... the mental ones, the mental ones... the mental ones.... especially KIME development & application in a simulated confrontational setting.... KIME, kime, kime, kime.... as apposed to our WC expert in my YT vid aimlessly running into MR. Experienced Boxer's right counter cross. As opposed to those Gracie karate / KUNG FU foils aimlessly facing off against Gracie clan members....
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First & hugely big lesson in Ms. TSD 1-steP I YT vid just posted. THERE IS NOTHING AIMLESS ABOUT ANYTHING SHE DOES MENTALLY OR PHYSICALLY, DOWN TO THE EYELASH. Her 3-stage demo has zero aimlessness. ZERO. Now ramp up the 'aimlessness' in TSD by a factor of 50 to 100 & you have Wing Chun.
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TMA critics, good luck with that....

1steps predate G.F.'s curriculum.
Wing Chun has 1 step drills.

In fact Ip Man was known for pausing midform/midkata to spend a whole hour repeating a single or 1 step over and over.
Then factor in TSDs use of 3steps..... and we move even closer to WC.

Then Te using Pushing Hand just like some branches of WC....

Hmmm look long enough and hard enough you will find correspondance.
Of course Korea loves the Northern Leg along with the southern fist.

Northern and Southern Styles of Kung-Fu...

Hwang Kee says that Tang Soo Do is sixty percent Soo Bahk Do, thirty percent Northern Kung Fu and ten percent Southern Kung Fu.

The style gets its arts of self-defense from Soo Bahk Do and Tae Kyun, its fighting principles from Northern and Southern Chinese Kung-Fu, and its "moral guidelines" such as philosophy from the Tao, Lao Tzu, and Confucious.

I dont quite know why Kime is forbidden in WC.
Mindless Mind is also part of karate.

Mushin. Look it up.
Mushin (mental state) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But yeah, shotonoob I didn't specify what kind of karate this A.W.C. looks like.
As for power generation internal vs external.
.... not all karate is pegged on the hard external end.

This kata by Gogen Yamaguichi is far softer than the Applied Karate... ahem.. cough I mean applied wing chun.

WRT powerg generation... he is doing kung fu.

Pay attention to the following link

And also the WC guy could use some KIME in his chain punches. Like the Kyukushin guy has.

 

[wckf92]

Wow...no idea what this thread is about at this point. Sorry I got involved. Best of luck lads...to each his own...

 

[TSDTexan]

Wow...no idea what this thread is about at this point. Sorry I got involved. Best of luck lads...to each his own...
View attachment 19578

Well it was started as an observation on how hard wing chun can get while training... that it looks like karate.

Shotonoob is saying that WC and Karate are totally different animals. I kinda agree... but dont take it to absolutes like he does.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Well it was started as an observation on how hard wing chun can get while training... that it looks like karate.

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Interesting thread discussion point. But wing chun is markedly less physical than karate... And that just the disassociation that supposed WC practitioners have here, not unlike other TMA misunderstandings. They want to use the 'clever,' more complicated WC techniques as 'better' physical type fighting... That's incompetent WC.

Shotonoob is saying that WC and Karate are totally different animals. I kinda agree... but dont take it to absolutes like he does.

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Again, "totally" is putting words in my mouth. And a a strong opinion based on serious study of TMA principles is only taking it to the absolute truths of TMA principles. Not a rhetorical absolute like I get on some replies on here....
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The correct way to look @ WC versus traditional karate is that WC is on a much higher incline of TMA sophistication. A much higher plane. Higher than Okinawan karate.
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Feel free to disagree.... And good luck with that....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Wow...no idea what this thread is about at this point. Sorry I got involved. Best of luck lads...to each his own...
View attachment 19578

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Well, that's superb marketing to the big group that can't embrace TMA beyond a bunch of physical drills & exercises. Cartoon responses.....

 

[ShotoNoob]

And yet... it is still so far from its tsd roots as shown in some old 8mm films.

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I'll look this over... you're the Master up in Michigan....
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The training in the film seems very close to the class regimen @ the TSD dojang I have been visiting.... My TSD 1=-step YT vid is a certain & specific part of their class curriculum... So off the bat... I don't see what is so different???

 

[TSDTexan]

... less physical than karate... And that just the disassociation that supposed WC practitioners have here, not unlike other TMA misunderstandings. They want to use the 'clever,' more complicated WC techniques as 'better' physical type fighting... That's incompetent WC.

The correct way to look @ WC versus traditional karate is that WC is on a much higher incline of TMA sophistication. A much higher plane. Higher than Okinawan karate.

Yes. I put paraphrasing in your mouth. O.0

Until you actually dig deep into "Te" like Sensei Patrick Mcarthy... you essentially speak from ignorance when you declare what degree of sophistication Oki "Te" is when compared to something else.
B)
How many first hand really old school style OMA have you talked with first hand???? 1? 7? 15?

How much higher? There is no way for you to even quantify that specific number. In percentage of sophistication.
Which only gives us < or > or = .

But I will leave that rabbittrail be.

 

[TSDTexan]

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I'll look this over... you're the Master up in Michigan....
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The training in the film seems very close to the class regimen @ the TSD dojang I have been visiting.... My TSD 1=-step YT vid is a certain & specific part of their class curriculum... So off the bat... I don't see what is so different???

Umm no. I am out in Oregon.
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Whats taught in the TSD mcDojangs looks only superficially the same. On the whole, in my limited 1st hand sampling, they crumple like tinfoil under sparing. Too much distance fighting tag tournements etc.

It has deviated from the Korean War tested hardbitten serious art it used to be.

Thats not to say it cannot be found anymore. Just that it is rather rare.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Pay attention to the following link

And also the WC guy could use some KIME in his chain punches. Like the Kyukushin guy has.

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Wow, that's a huge post. I'll take a longer look later... have to go. BRIEFLY....
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On the WC vs Kyo vid, we have to account for the skill level of the practitioners...
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Kyo practitioners, wrongly & typically use poor to little KIME. What they do have is physical like strength & AGGRESSION like the boxer, MT, etc..., etc.
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It's not the fault of Kyo as a style, it's the fault of expediency into full contact without the proper, prepared traditional karate base.
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A solid WC guy will on balance, dismantle & destroy the Kyo guy. My judgement is based on the capabilities I have mentioned about WC.
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Solid WC guys are relatively rare, especially compared to the rock-em, sock-em KYO "self-proclaimed" tough guys....
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My Rumble in the Bronx, JC demo, no KYO can stand up to that.... speed, power & tactics (including technical defense). And you don't get that by doing a bunch of Physical WC pressure drills.... never....
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THOUGHT POINT: AGGRESSION IS OK IN KARATE.... NEVER IN KUNG FU. Good luck with that....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Umm no. I am out in Oregon.

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oops....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Yes. I put paraphrasing in your mouth. O.0

Until you actually dig deep into "Te" like Sensei Patrick Mcarthy... you essentially speak from ignorance when you declare what degree of sophistication Oki "Te" is when compared to something else.
B)
How many first hand really old school style OMA have you talked with first hand???? 1? 7? 15?

How much higher? There is no way for you to even quantify that specific number. In percentage of sophistication.
Which only gives us < or > or = .

But I will leave that rabbittrail be.

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NOw, now... that's a bit high handed... I have based my opinion on my personal study... I don't need Patrick McCarthy's approval. There's other sources out there...
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I have spoken highly of Okinawan karate here MT.... Your comment comes across as defensive of yourstyle... I'm on record here defending all TMA styles. And my practicing TMA opinion is kung fu > Okinawan karate. Period... that's the fact in my mind. Is Okinawan karate as a group very strong TMA.... sure.

 

[TSDTexan]

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NOw, now... that's a bit high handed... I have based my opinion on my personal study... I don't need Patrick McCarthy's approval. There's other sources out there...
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I have spoken highly of Okinawan karate here MT.... Your comment comes across as defensive of yourstyle... I'm on record here defending all TMA styles. And my practicing TMA opinion is kung fu > Okinawan karate. Period... that's the fact in my mind. Is Okinawan karate as a group very strong TMA.... sure.

Nah bro. All tma is as good as the teacher who can teach it, the student can apply himself to it, and the unbrokenness of its ma.
Its a spectrum.

What you call Oki Karate is Chuan fa or Kung fu.
You are saying one is a weaker cousin.
I say both are spectrums and its hard to compare two such vast array of systems.

Cma > oma > jma =/- kma

Vs
Cma +/=/- all.

 

[JPinAZ]

While I also have no idea what this thread is really going on about, there are a few thing I will comment on.

Pressure testing emphasis does not produce good TMA of any ilk. Pressure testing is more in line with sport training theory. What produces good TMA is practice to the standards of TMA principles. This is even more imperative with a highly sophisticated martial art like WC.

The first sentence is really clueless IMO, regardless how much bolding one does
The second is even more clueless. (more in a second on that)
The last 2 are only theoretical - unless you are pressure testing what you are learning. In order to build and qualify actual skill in ANY art, you need pressure testing - has nothing to do with 'traditional', 'sport', WC, karate or anything else.. Without pressure testing you have NO WAY of even knowing what produces what.

Should be applied to the above quote haha (edited for correctness)

This statement [edit] is horse crap/QUOTE]

 

[JPinAZ]

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Here's TSD principles on how to handle the boxer, explained bya Female TSD instructor. One not standing around, lollygagging like in my TKD fail backfist break vid... ha ha...

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It's not that you have no idea of what I'm saying, it's that you don't have any idea of what this TSD Master instructor is saying.... Therein lies the total issue. IN the form of the "static" exercise the WC instructor & Danny T are complaining about....
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I don't see her demo as "static." I don't see her running into her opponent with no defense. I don't see her remaining stationary. I see a (i) Start, (ii) Couple of complementary, synchronized moves CONTAINED in a specific body movement, & a Finnish. Is that static? I see some definite intent in her actions... who here talked about intent.? I see definite KIME, & probably chi involvement (sorry guys, I don't think she's @ the chi-ball level.).... I don;t see her trading punches (like Mr. Boxer who's got "Ring Experience") which we see in the poor quality striking so prevalent in MMA or typical sport karate.
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Overall, most important, I see mental discipline. She knows what she wants to do and does precisely that in the face of an attack... World's apart from the behavior of so-called TMA striking experts in the Gracie demo vids... WC is leaps & bounds above the straightforward dynamics demo'd here... REAL WC, that is...
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Mr. WC Instructor in my YT vid above... good luck with that... IMHO you'll need it/

Did I miss something? I didn't see anything in the clip except a woman stepping back and doing a few patterned moves in the air without a partner. How is this a demo of defense or how to handle anything? Maybe if she showed it against a real live boxer that isn't trying to go along with a demo, then you might have something. But you can't really be serious that you feel the clip is representative of 'how to handle a boxer'?!?