Application of Taegeuk Sa Jang; steps 10B and 12B

[dvcochran]

It's like the difference between a front snap kick and a front push kick. They are similar motions, but there is a slightly different technique to them, and they have a slightly different way in which they affect the opponent. If you want to strike your opponent for maximum damage or to the head for a KO, you use a snap kick. If you want to shove them into something, get them the right distance away for a follow-up attack, or simply get them away from you, you use the snap kick.

I have never heard of a punch intentionally coming from the elbow. A backfist yes, depending on the angle of attack.

 

[dvcochran]

It is a unique form movement. But it is a very easy move. It is a reverse-hand "inside" block. But it is done in a back stance so what is happening is a body block with the Outside of the arm. Most of us do it all the time sparring and never have to think about it. It just keeps the your body from taking the hit.

 

[skribs]

I have never heard of a punch intentionally coming from the elbow. A backfist yes, depending on the angle of attack.

I'm talking about knife-hand strikes. Not punches.

 

[Danny T]

I still posit that 99% of the time, if you want to strike instead of block, the motion will be slightly different. That's because a block is designed to cover a wide area and prevent a strike from coming in, while a strike is intended to focus your power onto a specific point.

For example, with a knife-hand block vs. a knife-hand strike:

• An inward block will have a straight wrist, where an inward chop will have the hand bent back. The straight wrist gives you bigger vertical coverage (from elbow to blade of hand instead of just elbow to wrist) and make it less likely you miss the punch. The angled wrist gives you a tighter blade to hit with.
• An outward block (i.e. with the palm out) will feature a more vertical forearm and will be more from the shoulder. An outward strike will have a more horizontal arm and come more from the snap of the elbow. If you're closer, and you need to keep the arm bent in order to strike, then it would be the same snap motion, just with your arm at an angle.

To say that similar mechanics can be applied, I'd agree with. But to say they are the same thing, or that the exact motion can (and should) be used interchangeably for different applications, is like saying a sports car and a pickup are the same thing, because they can both drive you to work.

Where is the trainee in their development?
Attribute and physical skill development or have they move on to learning specific tactics and overall strategies?
Does the trainee understand ranges and how ranges change within the dynamics of a fight and ones defensive action may well be an attack instead.

Is a kick a kick or a step? Is a step a step or a knee? Is the mechanics of a rear hand punch actually punch or to hide a rear leg kick or can it be both? The answer to these questions is yes.

A 'block' is much more than a block. The term block is simply an all encompassing term for many actions.

 

[skribs]

Is a kick a kick or a step? Is a step a step or a knee? Is the mechanics of a rear hand punch actually punch or to hide a rear leg kick or can it be both? The answer to these questions is yes.

If I were to step the way I kicked, or knee the way I stepped, for the most part I'd be doing things horribly wrong.

By this notion you might as well say that power walking teaches effective martial arts, because they step (which covers kicks) and they pump their hands (which could be blocks, punchs, or throws).

 

[Danny T]

If I were to step the way I kicked, or knee the way I stepped, for the most part I'd be doing things horribly wrong.

By this notion you might as well say that power walking teaches effective martial arts, because they step (which covers kicks) and they pump their hands (which could be blocks, punchs, or throws).

Goes back to where is the person within their development?
Attribute or application?

 

[dvcochran]

I'm talking about knife-hand strikes. Not punches.

Nor a knife-hand strike. I do not see that working very well.

 

[skribs]

Nor a knife-hand strike. I do not see that working very well.

That's been the most effective way of doing a knife-hand strike that I've used. The hand moves a lot faster, it's easier to recoil, and you're in line with the motion of your joints.

Doing a strike with primarily force from the shoulder would be like doing a roundhouse kick, without chambering, and using the side of your foot.

 

[dvcochran]

That's been the most effective way of doing a knife-hand strike that I've used. The hand moves a lot faster, it's easier to recoil, and you're in line with the motion of your joints.

As a strike? I see no effective power in that. As a blocking motion as speed, sure. We all do it most often using the open palm to reduce the impact bumps and bruises in sparring.

 

[skribs]

As a strike? I see no effective power in that. As a blocking motion as speed, sure. We all do it most often using the open palm to reduce the impact bumps and bruises in sparring.

What are you even talking about? Are we even talking about the same move here?

I'm talking about a chop. Like in Koryo, the first move when you face the rear. Touch your shoulder, point your elbow at the target, and snap your hand out. I've found this to be both the fastest and strongest knife-hand strike in my arsenal. It's also a terrible blocking motion because it only protects a tiny line between you and your opponent.

I can only conclude that we're talking about different things if you say you can see it as a blocking motion, but it has no effective power.

For reference: the outward strike I'm talking about is at 0:55 in this video, right after he turns away from the camera:

 

[dvcochran]

What are you even talking about? Are we even talking about the same move here?

I'm talking about a chop. Like in Koryo, the first move when you face the rear. Touch your shoulder, point your elbow at the target, and snap your hand out. I've found this to be both the fastest and strongest knife-hand strike in my arsenal. It's also a terrible blocking motion because it only protects a tiny line between you and your opponent.

I can only conclude that we're talking about different things if you say you can see it as a blocking motion, but it has no effective power.

For reference: the outward strike I'm talking about is at 0:55 in this video, right after he turns away from the camera:

Yes, I am talking about the same basic move, albeit you jumped forms. Not the first/inward/high move but the second/outward/low move. Think about it; how many times do you block like that in sparring. All the time, just usually rotating the forearm to use the open hand to soften the block. In essence, a down block. But to get back on topic, neither is done using just the elbow.

 

[paitingman]

Bottom line you just have to try all these things out every which way and keep learning how you best can apply your movements.

You'll meet some who say this or that is a block and can apply it and show you what they mean because they always trained it as a block.
Others have it as a strike and can apply it as such due to their training.

Find your groove and how you like to apply things and do your best in training.

 

[skribs]

Yes, I am talking about the same basic move, albeit you jumped forms. Not the first/inward/high move but the second/outward/low move. Think about it; how many times do you block like that in sparring. All the time, just usually rotating the forearm to use the open hand to soften the block. In essence, a down block. But to get back on topic, neither is done using just the elbow.

I jumped forms because this has changed from a discussion about the specific technique, to the meta discussion of techniques in forms in general. It made that jump when @Dirty Dog decided to make it about me and my opinion on blocks, instead of addressing this technique. And also since my issue with the technique was addressed by @paitingman by pointing out that my stance was wrong.

And this, to me, is why I am so detailed in my analysis of each technique as it is. Because something wasn't right, and rather than wave it off as something else, I figured out why I was wrong.

Now, I have to ask: where is the line between a different motion and the same motion. You admit that it's a different motion in the quoted post. "Just usually rotating the forearm to use the open hand to soften the block." That's a different motion. You have to qualify "it's the same motion, but..." (Not exactly your words, but I'm paraphrasing here). So you admit it's different.

The two closest techniques I can think of, even closer than knifehand blocks and strikes, is an outside block and a backfist to the nose. Even these are slightly different, as with the outside block the tension is outward, with the backfist the tension is forward. The difference is that the outside block will go straight out from my chamber position, but the backfist will cross my body closer to my chest and then go out. Even though they look similar, they are still slightly different. Knowing this lets me practice the techniques for their different application.

This "it's the same motion", to me, attempts to absolve the need to identify these differences.

 

[dvcochran]

I jumped forms because this has changed from a discussion about the specific technique, to the meta discussion of techniques in forms in general. It made that jump when @Dirty Dog decided to make it about me and my opinion on blocks, instead of addressing this technique. And also since my issue with the technique was addressed by @paitingman by pointing out that my stance was wrong.

And this, to me, is why I am so detailed in my analysis of each technique as it is. Because something wasn't right, and rather than wave it off as something else, I figured out why I was wrong.

Now, I have to ask: where is the line between a different motion and the same motion. You admit that it's a different motion in the quoted post. "Just usually rotating the forearm to use the open hand to soften the block." That's a different motion. You have to qualify "it's the same motion, but..." (Not exactly your words, but I'm paraphrasing here). So you admit it's different.

The two closest techniques I can think of, even closer than knifehand blocks and strikes, is an outside block and a backfist to the nose. Even these are slightly different, as with the outside block the tension is outward, with the backfist the tension is forward. The difference is that the outside block will go straight out from my chamber position, but the backfist will cross my body closer to my chest and then go out. Even though they look similar, they are still slightly different. Knowing this lets me practice the techniques for their different application.

This "it's the same motion", to me, attempts to absolve the need to identify these differences.

An outside block and a backfist are very, very different. I am at a loss for how you make that connection. You were first talking about a subtle difference that most people do on the fly without even thinking about it. The motion is exactly the same, just a slight change with the hand. Then you try to marry to very different techniques. You have muddied the water and I have no clue why.

 

[skribs]

An outside block and a backfist are very, very different. I am at a loss for how you make that connection. You were first talking about a subtle difference that most people do on the fly without even thinking about it. The motion is exactly the same, just a slight change with the hand. Then you try to marry to very different techniques. You have muddied the water and I have no clue why.

I'm talking about an outward block (that starts inside and ends outside).

Compare that with the backfist in Taegeuk 5:

But if you're talking about an inward block (that starts outside and ends inside), then Pyongwon has backfists that are very similar to an inside block. Compare the inside blocks in Taegeuk 5 (above) with the backfists in Pyongwon (below).

They look very similar. Very similar. For you to say they're nothing alike, I don't even know what you're talking about.

"You were first talking about a subtle difference that most people do on the fly without even thinking about it. "

If you do it without thinking about it, then you don't do it. At some point in your training you had to realize there was a difference in how you do it, depending on the application. Otherwise you would do what I've seen a lot of people do, which is to do both the exact same way. And they either have horrible strikes or horrible blocks because they are NOT thinking about it.

Maybe you thought about 10 years ago and figured out the subtle differences and then moved on past that. But that doesn't mean those differences don't exist and it doesn't mean it doesn't matter. It does matter. That's why you figured it out.

 

[dvcochran]

I'm talking about an outward block (that starts inside and ends outside).

Compare that with the backfist in Taegeuk 5:

But if you're talking about an inward block (that starts outside and ends inside), then Pyongwon has backfists that are very similar to an inside block. Compare the inside blocks in Taegeuk 5 (above) with the backfists in Pyongwon (below).

They look very similar. Very similar. For you to say they're nothing alike, I don't even know what you're talking about.

"You were first talking about a subtle difference that most people do on the fly without even thinking about it. "

If you do it without thinking about it, then you don't do it. At some point in your training you had to realize there was a difference in how you do it, depending on the application. Otherwise you would do what I've seen a lot of people do, which is to do both the exact same way. And they either have horrible strikes or horrible blocks because they are NOT thinking about it.

Maybe you thought about 10 years ago and figured out the subtle differences and then moved on past that. But that doesn't mean those differences don't exist and it doesn't mean it doesn't matter. It does matter. That's why you figured it out.

Yea, I am just going to disagree with you and tap out. You are clearly on a different page. You aren't even staying on the same page.

 

[Danny T]

the spatial relationship between you and the opponent will change what a movement applies as.

 

[skribs]

Yea, I am just going to disagree with you and tap out. You are clearly on a different page. You aren't even staying on the same page.

I'm merely providing different examples to describe the same concept. The concept that a strike and a block, while similar, are fundamentally different.

 

[skribs]

the spatial relationship between you and the opponent will change what a movement applies as.

It doesn't change the principles or the physics involved. A strike is always going to be a move designed to inflict damage, and a block is always going to be a move designed to protect the largest area possible.

 

[Danny T]

To strike can mean to to bring into forceful contact or to collide with something.
Blocking as you are showing can be a forceful contact of or colliding with something.
When one is performing a inside or outside 'block' are you not in some instances colliding with or forcefully contacting something?