Anyone ever met someone who only trains forms and basics?

[Rich Parsons]

I'm curious if anyone ever sparred or saw someone spar who only trained forms and basics(like kihon and 1 steps) . I know to be a fighter you need to fight to get better, but I've seen schools where they only train forms, kihon basics(punches, kicks, blocks etc) and 1 steps but not free sparring. How proficient could someone get from a routine like that? I'm just curious. Thanks.

Anyone ever met someone who only trains forms and basics?​

I saw your thread title, and wanted to answer the question.
Yes, I have trained only basics for my complete martial art career. (37+ Years)
Forms to an extent, and also shadow striking and imaginary enemy movement.
.
Example: A student trained with us for about a year. They got a Low-mid color belt.
They left and trained for 6 months and got a blackbelt from a cousin art (Different lineage same culture or origin)
.
I saw them 5+_years later and they had a second degree in a Judo.
The asked me in the locker room before the seminar what I was doing. I told same art same location.
They laughed and said you must be a slow learner. I mastered everything you and the rest of that club had to offer, and moved on.
I have gotten three or four Black Belts since then in multiple arts.
What are you studying to keep you there?
.
My reply was: Well as a slow learner, I train and teach the basics. We practice the basics.
Later a person who had overheard the conversation, asked after the seminar, what I called basics as I obviously knew more about joint locks then many that were there at the seminar.
I replied, it is all the basics. As one improves so does ones basics. And if one keeps practicing those basics and getting better then one is still learning.
.
Now yes, from a strict stand point the moves and timing got more complicated and so forth.
Yet, the basics of Addition are used to teach the basics of multiplication.
Which keeps going on and on. So even Algebra II and Trig are just basics for that level.
.
Look at the Boxers who shadow box, and jump rope, and they may get into the ring a little months out before a fight.
Yet those prep months before they do their PT and basics and train those.
,
Yes they also had the ring time. Yet before the big fight, they are not out there in the ring five nights a week for the months leading up to that fight.
Yes, Some get into the ring with a training partner to move and hit moving targets, yet this is still their basics. The partner is not a wild card told to their best to "win", they are there to help the other practice their basics.
.
Best Wishes and Good Luck.

 

[Tigerwarrior]

But we know how Daniel-San faired in competition!

True

 

[Tigerwarrior]

Anyone ever met someone who only trains forms and basics?​

I saw your thread title, and wanted to answer the question.
Yes, I have trained only basics for my complete martial art career. (37+ Years)
Forms to an extent, and also shadow striking and imaginary enemy movement.
.
Example: A student trained with us for about a year. They got a Low-mid color belt.
They left and trained for 6 months and got a blackbelt from a cousin art (Different lineage same culture or origin)
.
I saw them 5+_years later and they had a second degree in a Judo.
The asked me in the locker room before the seminar what I was doing. I told same art same location.
They laughed and said you must be a slow learner. I mastered everything you and the rest of that club had to offer, and moved on.
I have gotten three or four Black Belts since then in multiple arts.
What are you studying to keep you there?
.
My reply was: Well as a slow learner, I train and teach the basics. We practice the basics.
Later a person who had overheard the conversation, asked after the seminar, what I called basics as I obviously knew more about joint locks then many that were there at the seminar.
I replied, it is all the basics. As one improves so does ones basics. And if one keeps practicing those basics and getting better then one is still learning.
.
Now yes, from a strict stand point the moves and timing got more complicated and so forth.
Yet, the basics of Addition are used to teach the basics of multiplication.
Which keeps going on and on. So even Algebra II and Trig are just basics for that level.
.
Look at the Boxers who shadow box, and jump rope, and they may get into the ring a little months out before a fight.
Yet those prep months before they do their PT and basics and train those.
,
Yes they also had the ring time. Yet before the big fight, they are not out there in the ring five nights a week for the months leading up to that fight.
Yes, Some get into the ring with a training partner to move and hit moving targets, yet this is still their basics. The partner is not a wild card told to their best to "win", they are there to help the other practice their basics.
.
Best Wishes and Good Luck.

Thanks for the insight. I agree you are right the basics are the most important, you need the basics to build from they are your foundation to build on when and if you advance. There's also nothing wrong just training basics and improving muscle memory so you can strike without thinking and just reflex it. That person you mentioned who had like 4 black belts in like a 5 year span and claimed to master your style was talking crazy, just one system most of them anyways take a whole lifetime to "master" and most never get to that level, also I've talked to masters and to the ones I talked to the title was just that a rank, they still considered themselves life long students. This thread has really opened my eyes and I'm gonna view sparring and training different now. There's more than 1 way to get to this mountain top. Thanks everyone.

 

[Hot Lunch]

If you mean sparring, as in WKF rules or similar, I don't think it prepares you for "real life." As a matter of fact, it probably gives you an unrealistic impression of what actually happens in real life.

In real life, you don't stop, reset, and go back to your marks when one person lands a hit. You're also going to have to take greater risks of getting it in real life, which point sparring punishes you for doing.

 

[Tigerwarrior]

If you mean sparring, as in WKF rules or similar, I don't think it prepares you for "real life." As a matter of fact, it probably gives you an unrealistic impression of what actually happens in real life.

In real life, you don't stop, reset, and go back to your marks when one person lands a hit. You're also going to have to take greater risks of getting it in real life, which point sparring punishes you for doing.

I agree that style of sparring has a few cons for self defense but also some pros, mma is even limited on preparing you for street situations against 1 unarmed person it's pretty good but that's a rarity on the street. That's where the sport and street defense are different. The pros of sport sparring and competition to me should help someone become more street ready but it's not the end all be all. Point sparring pros 1. Good in and out movement, 2. Avoid getting hit at all cost. Just those 2 are pros for me but the stopping and starting of the matches isn't realistic. I always encourage my training partners to compete but get this like this if they are mainly a striker I tell them do a grappling tournament, if they are a grappler I say try a striking competition, if they are trained in both I encourage fma sparring so they can see how fast and how difficult a blade or blunt object is to defend against. The whole goal is to show them that there's more than 1 range of fighting and you don't have to master all ranges that would be impossible, master 1 but be proficient in all ranges. Just my thoughts.

 

[Hot Lunch]

2. Avoid getting hit at all cost.

I don't see this as a pro. Someone who is trained solely in grappling, for example, may go in for a double-leg takedown, knowing full well that they're going to eat some punches while executing it. But considering everything that the grappler will be able to do following that takedown, eating those punches is a small price to pay.

Point sparring doesn't allow you think that way.

 

[drop bear]

If you mean sparring, as in WKF rules or similar, I don't think it prepares you for "real life." As a matter of fact, it probably gives you an unrealistic impression of what actually happens in real life.

In real life, you don't stop, reset, and go back to your marks when one person lands a hit. You're also going to have to take greater risks of getting it in real life, which point sparring punishes you for doing.

But you are still training timing in a competitive setting. You might only train it for one punch. And that isn't great. But it is one more punch than the guy doing drills gets.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

But you are still training timing in a competitive setting. You might only train it for one punch. And that isn't great. But it is one more punch than the guy doing drills gets.

Unless you are actively trying to hit each other during drills. Define “drills”. I was doing a 2 man form on Sunday with my training brother and took two bare knuckle shots to the jaw and forehead hard enough to get lumps and bruises but not so hard as to knock me down. We try our best to land shots during “drills”. I’m getting Chin na training at speed and with resistance at least once a week. I don’t do much hard sparring anymore but I did quite a lot of it, and a decent amount of real fights in the past. There is something to conditioning the body to take hits, I still want it once in a while, I just worry more about injuries now because of work requirements. I feel like hard sparring has a diminished return value at a certain age, point of experience, or number of CTE one can tolerate without dribbling spit while talking. I value what is left of my cognitive abilities more than whatever small reward I might glean from a hard spar session. It’s necessary to do it sometimes, but I don’t need to keep going until I break anymore, and I need to have a reason, or a specific purpose for doing it.

 

[Buka]

Unless you are actively trying to hit each other during drills. Define “drills”. I was doing a 2 man form on Sunday with my training brother and took two bare knuckle shots to the jaw and forehead hard enough to get lumps and bruises but not so hard as to knock me down. We try our best to land shots during “drills”. I’m getting Chin na training at speed and with resistance at least once a week. I don’t do much hard sparring anymore but I did quite a lot of it, and a decent amount of real fights in the past. There is something to conditioning the body to take hits, I still want it once in a while, I just worry more about injuries now because of work requirements. I feel like hard sparring has a diminished return value at a certain age, point of experience, or number of CTE one can tolerate without dribbling spit while talking. I value what is left of my cognitive abilities more than whatever small reward I might glean from a hard spar session. It’s necessary to do it sometimes, but I don’t need to keep going until I break anymore, and I need to have a reason, or a specific purpose for doing it.

To me, you have to actively try to hit each other during drills. Otherwise you’re training to miss or stop short of the target - which is still missing. You just have to do it with responsibility.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

To me, you have to actively try to hit each other during drills. Otherwise you’re training to miss or stop short of the target - which is still missing. You just have to do it with responsibility.

I was not matching my partner, that’s how it took two shots to the chops to wake me up. I think I’m starting to slow down some. I’ve had several injuries this last year. I don’t have very many hardcore students anymore so the culture is changing some. Most of the serious guys go to MMA these days. I just keep plugging along on my basics, waiting for a prodigy to walk in so we can pass the torch. My hope is that the system doesn’t die with me.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

To me, you have to actively try to hit each other during drills. Otherwise you’re training to miss or stop short of the target - which is still missing. You just have to do it with responsibility.

Good point.

 

[Gyakuto]

To me, you have to actively try to hit each other during drills. Otherwise you’re training to miss or stop short of the target - which is still missing. You just have to do it with responsibility.

One of my Karate teachers (Masafumi Shiomitsu 9th Dan now) would often omit the block when doing pre-arranged sparring to see if his partner was punching at him properly. He was really tough!

 

[Buka]

I was not matching my partner, that’s how it took two shots to the chops to wake me up. I think I’m starting to slow down some. I’ve had several injuries this last year. I don’t have very many hardcore students anymore so the culture is changing some. Most of the serious guys go to MMA these days. I just keep plugging along on my basics, waiting for a prodigy to walk in so we can pass the torch. My hope is that the system doesn’t die with me.

I hope it doesn’t either. But even if it does, think of all the people it helped from its start, all the lives it touched through teaching and example.

Some of those people will undoubtedly influence future people in positive ways.

 

[isshinryuronin]

If you mean sparring, as in WKF rules or similar, I don't think it prepares you for "real life." As a matter of fact, it probably gives you an unrealistic impression of what actually happens in real life.

In real life, you don't stop, reset, and go back to your marks when one person lands a hit. You're also going to have to take greater risks of getting it in real life, which point sparring punishes you for doing.

During my early training in dojo and point tournaments we were certainly no strangers to body shots and the occasional head shot. True, we didn't take 3 or 6 head shots per session, but enough to know we didn't like it and to avoid them when possible. Also, enough over the years to know which ones we could take and keep on fighting.

"What actually happens in real life" is not coming across an expert boxer or MMA guy. I think most competent black belts that have seriously trained are equipped to deal with the 1, 2 or even 3 combat encounters one would expect to face in their lifetime. Most of the time attackers have not had disciplined training in distance, timing, tactics and efficient execution, depending rather on pure aggressiveness and intimidation. Some who seek easy prey may have not even experienced a target who fought back, even if they be a senior citizen. Love to hear stories of an elder fending off a potential mugger.

Solid TMA training, along with the right mindset, puts one on pretty good footing overall to handle common attacks. The majority of TMA practitioners do not want to be expert fighters, just substantially improve their odds should a conflict arise (and gain all the supplemental benefits training provides). Of course, there will always be someone tougher than you. Avoiding having to fight gives one the best chance of not losing a fight.

 

[ap Oweyn]

Isshinryu,

I wanted to tell you that, after our recent discussions, I got on a bit of a kick of watching documentaries on martial arts from the 70s and 80s. "The Greatest Karate," I think one of them was called. "The Strongest" maybe. Anyway, it was a really interesting look at karate SHORTLY before my time. (My time in martial arts. Not my time on Earth.)

 

[isshinryuronin]

Isshinryu,

I wanted to tell you that, after our recent discussions, I got on a bit of a kick of watching documentaries on martial arts from the 70s and 80s. "The Greatest Karate," I think one of them was called. "The Strongest" maybe. Anyway, it was a really interesting look at karate SHORTLY before my time. (My time in martial arts. Not my time on Earth.)

I checked out that video clip. Interesting. Kyokushin can be brutal as "defense" seems not to be stressed. In one part, the instructor is seen striking students with a shinai (split bamboo sword). Brought back fond memories.

The main weapons guy looked to be Tadashi Yamashita, a true master of karate and kobudo. I saw him in action several times, and his kid (about 9 or 10 yrs. old at the time) was amazing as well. In reference to another thread, that was one kid who could be worthy of being a 16-year-old 2nd degree. Black belts used to be hard to come by.

 

[ap Oweyn]

I checked out that video clip. Interesting. Kyokushin can be brutal as "defense" seems not to be stressed. In one part, the instructor is seen striking students with a shinai (split bamboo sword). Brought back fond memories.

The main weapons guy looked to be Tadashi Yamashita, a true master of karate and kobudo. I saw him in action several times, and his kid (about 9 or 10 yrs. old at the time) was amazing as well. In reference to another thread, that was one kid who could be worthy of being a 16-year-old 2nd degree. Black belts used to be hard to come by.

I don’t remember Tadashi Yamashita from the film I watched recently, though I’m very familiar with him more generally.

Never been hit with a shinai (though I have one). Been hit with plenty of olisi (“eskrima sticks”).

The movie I watched followed the American team to that kyokushin tournament in Japan. Showed matches between various countries through the course of the movie.

Interesting to see the point matches you’ve referenced pre-foam dipped pads.

 

[windwalker099]

At the end of 8 months, one day he got into a fight. Within 20 minutes, his opponent could not even land a single punch on his body. He was so happy and came back to me and said, "It works!".

What kind of "fight" takes 20 minutes ?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What kind of "fight" takes 20 minutes ?

It could be 15 minutes, or 10 minutes. Either my memory was wrong, or he told me wrong. He died few years later in a car accident. No way to confirm on that.

 

[windwalker099]

Solid TMA training, along with the right mindset, puts one on pretty good footing overall to handle common attacks.

One might ask did these guys spar or did they train basic's and mind set.