Anybody ever heard of shaolin-do???

[The Kai]

Actually I don't think it is close to Karate at all. I guy standing there moving his arms or legs around is not karate. If you say well there are no signatures of power from Kung fu, don't assume therefore that it must them be Karate. - Cuz it moves nothing like Karate should

 

[pekho]

I don't see what the problem is. Within any style it is common for there to be several sub-styles. So Shaolin five animals style has the five sub-styles. A true master can build a school based on techniques from different schools without it all becoming hand waving. A person who lacks understanding of even one small style cannot make a school that is anything more than hand waving. The advantage to having different styles within a style is the ability to change from one to another. A crane block and strike is similar to a tiger block and strike, but the energies are very different. The differences in energy make it very useful to have several different styles to choose from while sparring. Changing styles and energy gives one an advantage over someone limited to a single style and energy. I also agree that to get anywhere, it is necessary to stay with a single school for ten-twenty years, but that does not preclude sub-styles within a school.

Josh

 

[7starmantis]

I don't see what the problem is. Within any style it is common for there to be several sub-styles. So Shaolin five animals style has the five sub-styles. A true master can build a school based on techniques from different schools without it all becoming hand waving. A person who lacks understanding of even one small style cannot make a school that is anything more than hand waving. The advantage to having different styles within a style is the ability to change from one to another. A crane block and strike is similar to a tiger block and strike, but the energies are very different. The differences in energy make it very useful to have several different styles to choose from while sparring. Changing styles and energy gives one an advantage over someone limited to a single style and energy. I also agree that to get anywhere, it is necessary to stay with a single school for ten-twenty years, but that does not preclude sub-styles within a school.

Josh

I'm not sure what you mean about every style having sub-styles? I would consider each style as a "style" of its own, not a sub-style. I mean, take mantis for example, what is it a sub-style of, or what are its sub-styles? I think you may be using the word "styles" to mean techniues per se in your example about fighting. I just dont see the need to change from one style to another durign a fight.

I think your making the school of higher important when saying you need to stay at the school for 10 or 20 years. What about the school is so important? Is it the teacher? The familiarity of the building? The school is of little importance. If its not the style that is important at the school, what is? My school teaches 7* mantis, no other "sub-styles". Does that mean I should seek out other schools to train with? I dont think so, why would I need another style if I can truly use the one I study?

7sm

 

[sifu Adams]

I am back, shift change messed everything up.



where did Karate, TKD, ect...come from? was it wushu, 7* mantis, shaolin, kung fu? I thought it came from the the kung fu styles. If so why don't they look like the form you do? why do they kick high? Punch hard? If they trace their roots to the old kung fu styles befor the 5 ancetors then why do they look so diffenent that the CMA does now? Maybe Shoalin do don't look like Karate, Maybe Karate looks like Shaolin do?

 

[The Kai]

Nope

 

[InvisibleFist]

To a degree yes. If you've ever seen Yongchun White Crane, it's almost identical to Goju-ryu.


Oh a wee bit more than 2 lessons it's safe to say. Where did you happen to take these two lessons? Also... since you're calling me by my name, what's yours? Quid pro quo for more info...

I'm using your name, cause its in your handle. My name's Zack for what its worth.

The school I visited is not exactly Shaolin Do, its a "Chinese Shaolin Center" but still part of the Sin The lineage.

 

[TaiChiTJ]

where did Karate, TKD, ect...come from? was it wushu, 7* mantis, shaolin, kung fu? I thought it came from the the kung fu styles.


My understanding is that all Karate came from Okinawa, and they developed it in association with masters from China. Here is a quote I found online:

"Historically, Okinawa was an independent kingdom, but it was strongly influenced by Chinese culture. Okinawa established a tributary relationship with China, which allowed Okinawan martial artists to study in China (and to train with Chinese martial artists visiting Okinawa).

There were originally three styles of Okinawa-te, named for the towns where they were located: Shuri-te, Naha-te and Tomari-te. Shotokan karate is a modern Japanese style, descended from these traditional Okinawan styles. "

My understanding is that Japan invaded Okinawa, and as part of that process they became aware of Karate and started practicing it. Then later Korea developed Tae Kwon Do from Japanese Karate.

But it all comes from China, where the Shaolin temple and other temples were already established years before. It was however, further developed by Okinawans.

This is the link where that quote above comes from:
http://www.karatedojo.com/history/history.htm

If you want to see an Okinawan master moving, do a search on this site for Oyata, his interpretation of karate forms include grappling, throwing, and I think he was the inspiration for the point striking work George Dillman is doing. Dillman has furthered developed it, however I think his first exposure to the idea came from Master Seishu Oyata. He is an awesome martial artist and lives in Missouri, I think.

 

[clfsean]

I'm using your name, cause its in your handle. My name's Zack for what its worth.

The school I visited is not exactly Shaolin Do, its a "Chinese Shaolin Center" but still part of the Sin The lineage.

Well Zack no reason to be snippy about it. Simple question, simple answer, no clouds.

A Chinese Shaolin Center is exactly Shaolin Do. There are a few of those around. Were they out west or in Ga? What you were exposed to were their "Lohan Short Forms".. i.e. basics. No Lohan Kung fu... no "Louhan Shibashou"... nothing like that. Moving basic drills that's all. Normally done much more rigid in nature than anything you'd find in Northern & most Southern kung fu as well.

 

[clfsean]

If you want to see the origins of Japanese Karate... look to Okinawa.

If you want to see the origins of Okinawan Karate... look to Fujian province & Ngo Cho Kuen, Tai Chor Kuen, Yong Chun Bai He or Fuzhou Bai He. There's plenty of video on the Net to see what I mean.

Don't look to Nothern Shaolin... Totally different movement theories & structures than Southern MA & to me IMHO most Okinawan Karate bears a strong resemblance to Southern Shorthand & Longhand stuff.

 

[brothershaw]

karate came from china to okinawa to japan

Just based on the things I have read,experienced, and been told some of the Shaolin-DO stuff sounds " interesting".
If I knocked Shaolin Do in previous posts that was sort of out of line.Anybody can knock anybodys school or teacher without having actually experienced the teacher or school first hand.

Now on the other hand a student of ANY school needs to do thier own research, which means reading different books, unfortunately checking stuff on the internet, and also intereacting with people from other schools, and styles. Otherwise you can run the risk of blindly taking what is passed on to you as the gospel when it isnt, and that could happen in any style or school.

If I am ever in a state with a shaolin do school I will check it out.

 

[InvisibleFist]

Well Zack no reason to be snippy about it. Simple question, simple answer, no clouds.

A Chinese Shaolin Center is exactly Shaolin Do. There are a few of those around. Were they out west or in Ga? What you were exposed to were their "Lohan Short Forms".. i.e. basics. No Lohan Kung fu... no "Louhan Shibashou"... nothing like that. Moving basic drills that's all. Normally done much more rigid in nature than anything you'd find in Northern & most Southern kung fu as well.

No snippyness intended, mate.

This was in Northridge CA, a Los Angeles suburb.

So you actually studied with them for a while?

 

[clfsean]

No snippyness intended, mate.

Cool cool... that's the bad thing about the Net... you can't hear inflection in written form.

This was in Northridge CA, a Los Angeles suburb.

So you actually studied with them for a while?

Gotcha... A Soards school.

Yeah I was with them about 5 years. Met a lot of really good people with the majority of them making SD work & work well with little to no effort. I still have many friends & one of my best friends involved with SD & they're happy & I dig it for them. But I was approaching some material that wasn't going to agree with my body & some of the training methods were already taking a toll on me. So I left school & moved on.

My problem was the packaging & presentation of it. It's called kung fu & does have several legit kungfu styles/systems/forms contained in it. However about 95% of the people in SD don't play it with CMA foundations & practices. Those 5% that do are few & far between with the rest of the organization hating because of it yet due to politics won't look at how or why their training changed to try to reintroduce the CMA methods to it.

Said it before & I'll say it again... it was CMA at some point. That point is mostly long gone.

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Cool cool... that's the bad thing about the Net... you can't hear inflection in written form.

Gotcha... A Soards school.

Yeah I was with them about 5 years. Met a lot of really good people with the majority of them making SD work & work well with little to no effort. I still have many friends & one of my best friends involved with SD & they're happy & I dig it for them. But I was approaching some material that wasn't going to agree with my body & some of the training methods were already taking a toll on me. So I left school & moved on.

My problem was the packaging & presentation of it. It's called kung fu & does have several legit kungfu styles/systems/forms contained in it. However about 95% of the people in SD don't play it with CMA foundations & practices. Those 5% that do are few & far between with the rest of the organization hating because of it yet due to politics won't look at how or why their training changed to try to reintroduce the CMA methods to it.

Said it before & I'll say it again... it was CMA at some point. That point is mostly long gone.

I haven't followed this thread much lately ,but have to agree with pretty much everything Sean has said. Shaolin- Do might have once favored CMA or come from CMA ,but those days are long gone now. It looks,moves,and acts alot like karate now.

There are some southern china styles that look like karate to a degree but not as much as Shaolin-Do.

jeff

 

[InvisibleFist]

Cool cool... that's the bad thing about the Net... you can't hear inflection in written form.

Gotcha... A Soards school.

Yes, the Soards.

Yeah I was with them about 5 years. Met a lot of really good people with the majority of them making SD work & work well with little to no effort. I still have many friends & one of my best friends involved with SD & they're happy & I dig it for them. But I was approaching some material that wasn't going to agree with my body & some of the training methods were already taking a toll on me. So I left school & moved on.

I see. In that case I will bow to your opinion, since you obviously have a lot more experience with them.

I was under the impression that the Shaolin-do haters were simply out to get them because of a few bad videos (and the hung kuen on that site was REALLY bad) and their Japanese uniforms.

How long have you been with CLF now?

 

[clfsean]

Yes, the Soards.


I see. In that case I will bow to your opinion, since you obviously have a lot more experience with them.

Nah dude... no bowing needed. Just a little longer in & eyes were always wide open.

I was under the impression that the Shaolin-do haters were simply out to get them because of a few bad videos (and the hung kuen on that site was REALLY bad) and their Japanese uniforms.

How long have you been with CLF now?

The uniform bit never bothered me much. I've got a set of monk robes I bought at the Wushu Guan at Shaolin. It's reminiscent of a Japanese gi, but to relate the two is a stretch. I personally like Jimmy Woo's (of Kung Fu San Soo) answer to why his people wore a gi to practice... (paraphrasing) "They're cheaper & more available".

Yeah the videos... wasn't exactly "best foot forward" with much of it, but that's as far as I'm going on it. I've seen better performed by SD people, here in Atlanta & a couple of other places.

I've only been playing CLF a year now. But I've got a pretty good background besides SD so I adjust & learn pretty quick.

What are you studying now?

 

[7starmantis]

Anyone got a link to any SD videos for us to check out ourselves?

7sm

 

[47MartialMan]

Yes, and I have visited the local school...

 

[7starmantis]

Yes, and I have visited the local school...

Ok, care to share them with the rest of us?

7sm

 

[47MartialMan]

First Note:
It is never my intention to belittle any martial art, martial art organization, instructor, practitioner/people. I am only going to write about my experience(s), or past discussions, and not generally post my opinion. I may post a seemingly "negative" thread or statement. Thus playing a "devils advocate", or "suppose" statement to stimulate a more response from others. Be it, for I tend to enjoy others' viewpoints/opinions, equally, and some cases, better, than mine.


I went and visited the local school. They were hesitant to reveal much. They must have been aware that I had many years of experience. From my past experiences, you can almost "profile" a experienced martial artist. I had decided to join, but they wanted to institute and contractoral agreement. I did not know if that was their normal precedure, but I had told them that I wanted a "trial membership"

Although their lineage is speculative, their teaching mood, curriculum, and structure was the same as any other commercial school.

Their forms were different and the instructors were very polite.

I was not concerned on how they came to be, but how do they benefit their students/practitoners. In what ways, does the teacher and student relationship differ than any other school?

Although, a interesting school, it wasnt for me. Mainly, I wasn't looking for a "new" or different place to learn. I have so much to learn and do in my current system. I went to explore in such the case on their existence.

On a scale of McDojo 1-6, (McDojo-too make-shift/too commercial/too hyped) (1 being not so good, 6 being great for something to learn), I have to rank them around a 4-5. For what it is worth, if there wasn't a large selection of martial arts in that area, they have the martial concept. And, not to belittle or insult, I beleive there are other martial art schools that have better worth.

 

[InvisibleFist]

Nah dude... no bowing needed. Just a little longer in & eyes were always wide open.


The uniform bit never bothered me much. I've got a set of monk robes I bought at the Wushu Guan at Shaolin. It's reminiscent of a Japanese gi, but to relate the two is a stretch. I personally like Jimmy Woo's (of Kung Fu San Soo) answer to why his people wore a gi to practice... (paraphrasing) "They're cheaper & more available".

Yeah. That plus the fact that there's really no such thing as a "Traditional kung fu uniform". The thing that people wear is just traditonal Chinese clothes...common dress up some time in the fifties (and you can still see it on old men in HK). The Chinese wushu teams actually train in tracksuits.

But when MA was becoming big in the US in the seventies, people expected a cool costume, so if you were teaching kung fu, you either used a gi, or came up with the "kung fu uniform" that they use now.

I've only been playing CLF a year now. But I've got a pretty good background besides SD so I adjust & learn pretty quick.

What are you studying now?

Hung Gar and CLF.