Anybody ever heard of shaolin-do???

[sifu Adams]

lets slow down. (and calm down) Now I am asking you some questions not to make you mad but to make you think. I understand what you are saying about one style is the best. you are saying you can defend from anything anyone does by using your style and you dont have to change anything you do because you can defend from anything I throw at you. (per say) What am I going to throw at you? What move am I going to do first? My style is SD what am I going to use? My style is Mantis what am I going to do? my style is tiger what am I going to do?

think about this I would like to hear what your approch to each question would be using your style.

Now I have a bigger question? if you do not have the tech in your forms what art you doing with them. maybe that is why we don't see eye to eye on this. when I do a form I am fighting. (shadow boxing) If it is the Mantis I am thinking of the way the mantis attacks, fast, hard, pulls everything in, pinpointed pressure point stikes. one move in our mantis you hit with one hand (mantis hand) over (to pressure point beside nose) you hit striat ( to the pressure point third vertabray down on the chest) you hook with the back of the forarm and strike the temple. I break the timing and do it hard fast and with reason. this is just one example of one form within the SD system every part of my forms this is my mind set. What are you thinking when you go throgh your forms? are you thinking I look like a mantis? or hit, hit, pull, hit with no meaning? You will have to fill me in on what your forms are like. If your tech. don't come out of the forms where do they come form. I thought the monks used the forms to help remember the tech they got from the anamials. Help me understand this.

 

[7starmantis]

lets slow down. (and calm down) Now I am asking you some questions not to make you mad but to make you think. I understand what you are saying about one style is the best. you are saying you can defend from anything anyone does by using your style and you dont have to change anything you do because you can defend from anything I throw at you. (per say) What am I going to throw at you? What move am I going to do first? My style is SD what am I going to use? My style is Mantis what am I going to do? my style is tiger what am I going to do?

I can answer that one from my experience. It matters not. I don’t know what you’re going to throw first, and if you think you can know that, you’re sadly mistaken. Also, if you think it matters what you throw first, your sadly mistaken. Why on earth would it matter what your first technique is? I'm still going to defend, regardless of what your attack may be, I may do different techniques, but it will all be mantis, I guarantee you that much.

7sm

 

[RHD]

Sifu Adams,

In forms there are techniques. They are only one of many layers. The techniques are there to be extracted, drilled solo and with training partners in a variety of gradients. But also there is footwork, which is key. The footwork of the system is extremely important, and usually in CMA the forms are one of if not the way to transmit it on a rudimentary level. Also, there are repetitive bridging patterns. Also, there is a lot of conditioning built into Hung Gar forms. Also there are a lot of breathing patterns energy delivery concepts in the forms. Also there is a lot of pressure point mapping and strategical concepts "written" into them. It baffles me that a person can even begin to scratch the surface of 86 forms within a lifetime.

I don't do my forms like prearranged shadow boxing. When I shadow box, I shadow box or train combinations that may or may not be taken directly from forms.

As to what to do against different attacks...
Well in Hung Gar (my understanding of it) it is to Bridge,Control, and Strike ( which means hit, kick, ram, lock, throw, etc...). We us solid footwork using angles and rootedness to off balance the opponent along with various methods of bridging at medium to close range, with the intent to control by jamming, sticking, directing, at various key anatomical points (such as the elbow for instance) , and then launch the attack whatever it may be. This process can be played out in myriad ways, but the main strategy is the same.

A few of the mainstays of this method are:
If the opponent doesn't want to commit, we use "hard bridging" to cause pain and injury to thier weapons. Then control from there and strike with lots of forward motion through the weak point of the opponent's stance. This is true whether on the offensive or defensive.

If the opponent comes in hard and heavy, we use "soft bridging" to off balance and control. Then strike. There may be a brief retreat here, but then it's right back into forward motion through the weak point of the opponent's stance.

To attack, most often we will create a bridge that clears or completely bypasses and controls the guard position of our opponent, and then strike. Most often this means both hands are working togther.

We drill against as many different attacks as possible, and spar whenever possible with whatever stylists are available.

So really, I don't care what's being thrown at me...I've trained to bridge it, control it, and launch my counter. If this doesn't work, it's time for more training and practice, not time to switch styles.

As far as techniques go, again the bridging, footwork, and other strategies are paramount, but a rule of thumb is to use the five element punches to "soften" our target. Finish off or dominate a weaker opponent with tiger techniques. Use crane against a larger/stronger opponent in a more defensive mode...Always keeping in mind that it's the attributes and not the techniques or handshapes themselves that make it all work. It's basically a yin/yang principle played out on many levels.

What we don't do is:

*Kick above our own waist.
*Block for the sake of blocking unless it's a last resort (bridging is a very active process that's part of my attack whether I'm on offense or defense)
*Retreat incessantly, bounce around on the balls of the feet, or fight as if walking a balance beam in a straight line back and forth.
*Break contact once a bridge is established unless forced to or it's necessary for defensive reasons.
*Care what style we're up against. If we have to hunt them down...fine. If they come to us...even better.


Anyway, hope that answers some of your questions.

Mike

 

[sifu Adams]

RHD, Ok I was looking for some things when I ask the questions.

you said

"Finish off or dominate a weaker opponent with tiger techniques. Use crane against a larger/stronger opponent in a more defensive mode."

is that two diffent systems? that sounds like what I was saying before about how I use my forms.

"We us solid footwork using angles and rootedness to off balance the opponent along with various methods of bridging at medium to close range, with the intent to control by jamming, sticking, directing, at various key anatomical points (such as the elbow for instance) , and then launch the attack whatever it may be."

we do this as well. the footwork in the birds is used to move around the opponents as well as uprooting and causing your opponent to shift there weight as we apply the move. the tech. we have in the form teach us to use our body weight as part of the strike. most of the time when we apply a block it is in combantion with a strike.

"We drill against as many different attacks as possible, and spar whenever possible with whatever stylists are available"

we do this as well but we can do it within our own school because we all like are diffent ways of fighting. Some like to kick, some like to punch, some like to ground fight, some like to throw, some like to fight inside, some like to fight from a distance.

What we don't do is:

*Kick above our own waist.
*Block for the sake of blocking unless it's a last resort (bridging is a very active process that's part of my attack whether I'm on offense or defense)
*Retreat incessantly, bounce around on the balls of the feet, or fight as if walking a balance beam in a straight line back and forth.
*Break contact once a bridge is established unless forced to or it's necessary for defensive reasons.
*Care what style we're up against. If we have to hunt them down...fine. If they come to us...even better.

other than kicking above the waist we don't do any of this eather. Is this what makes you kung fu?

7* I was looking for that answer. we don't think you could guess what the opponent is going to do. we react. but they way this was leading I thought RHD would give me a speific block or strike for a punch or style.

I think everyone's lack of training in the SD style is why you don't see the meaning behind it. I will also say that many of the SD students that talk on the the sights like MT lack the experiance that is need to argue the point. however I do believe if given the chance I could open some eyes on how effective the forms are and how we use them if you or anyone could take the time to spend one day with me training, not to learn the art but just the understanding. i think you would find that it is a shaolin art of kung fu. I know everyone does not have that oppertuity. but my gym is always open if you are in the Dayton Ohio area. When I say I can do 86 forms i am not talking about just doing them I understand them that is what I would have to show. I also think that some of Sin the's clams like he knows 900 kata leaves a bad tast with everyone. to me 200 is impressive and hard for anyone to believe. when they push is to 900 everyone shoots it down and rightfully so. But I havn't seen anyone who can say it is NOT shaolin. they say it's not complete, certain forms don't look like theres, but nothing that states that it is not form shoalin.

 

[RHD]

RHD, Ok I was looking for some things when I ask the questions.

you said

"Finish off or dominate a weaker opponent with tiger techniques. Use crane against a larger/stronger opponent in a more defensive mode."

is that two diffent systems? that sounds like what I was saying before about how I use my forms.

No...Hung Gar is known as the Tiger and Crane system. There are roughly 10 tiger and 8 crane techniques, all of which work off of one unified conceptual base. Mantis and Monkey work off of a completely different set of style specific ideals! I don't need to switch constantly back and forth between two systems, nor do I need to practice mantis, monkey, dragon, lohan, hsing yi, tai chi, or tai bird forms. Everything I need is right there in the Hung Gar system.


"We us solid footwork using angles and rootedness to off balance the opponent along with various methods of bridging at medium to close range, with the intent to control by jamming, sticking, directing, at various key anatomical points (such as the elbow for instance) , and then launch the attack whatever it may be."

we do this as well. the footwork in the birds is used to move around the opponents as well as uprooting and causing your opponent to shift there weight as we apply the move. the tech. we have in the form teach us to use our body weight as part of the strike. most of the time when we apply a block it is in combantion with a strike.

So you now are saying that you use the bird footwork with ever changing mantis-monkey-hsing yi-lohan hands? How does mantis and monkey integrate into the bird?

"We drill against as many different attacks as possible, and spar whenever possible with whatever stylists are available"

we do this as well but we can do it within our own school because we all like are diffent ways of fighting. Some like to kick, some like to punch, some like to ground fight, some like to throw, some like to fight inside, some like to fight from a distance.


Must be hard to teach so many different ways to fight.

What we don't do is:

*Kick above our own waist.
*Block for the sake of blocking unless it's a last resort (bridging is a very active process that's part of my attack whether I'm on offense or defense)
*Retreat incessantly, bounce around on the balls of the feet, or fight as if walking a balance beam in a straight line back and forth.
*Break contact once a bridge is established unless forced to or it's necessary for defensive reasons.
*Care what style we're up against. If we have to hunt them down...fine. If they come to us...even better.

other than kicking above the waist we don't do any of this eather. Is this what makes you kung fu?

Really? What are the bridging principles used in SD?


7* I was looking for that answer. we don't think you could guess what the opponent is going to do. we react. but they way this was leading I thought RHD would give me a speific block or strike for a punch or style.

That's because there are no specific "he does this...I do that" techniques.


I think everyone's lack of training in the SD style is why you don't see the meaning behind it

I think you're not getting the fact that with x number of forms from x number of systems, you're spanning multiple complete systems but not getting the core princliples and concepts that make them each unique and stand alone.

Mike

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Randy Strausbaugh I see you are from Ohio I am located just south of dayton I would invite you down to my school to see the way we teach the are and to show you my 86 forms. I am not just talking I can back them up and am willing to show you any of them. I can also show you how they work for fighting as well. This goes out to anyone If your forms are not showing you how to fight why are you doing them? All my fighting tech. comes out of my "Shaolin Do" forms.

Sorry it took a while to get back to you, but I've been offline the past few days (seasonal stuff). Thank you for the invite, but having re-read my original post, I believe that you have mistaken it for someone else's. My post did not address the number of forms you practice/teach or whether or not you can glean fighting techniques from them. Instead, I spoke of the Shaolin-do group which I saw having dropped the "do" and using "T" shirts instead of gis and belts. Unless, of course, you are that guy I met years ago who wanted to mix Wing Chun with Taekwondo.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

some people cant seem to get behind the whole concepts and theories of martial arts. ive got 500 techniques.....ive got 3000.
thats a lot of bull.
techniques dont mean squat. if you're using techniques for self defense, you might as well be rhyming off tongue twisters or dirty limericks.
you can learn one form....and take from that form all the theory and conceptual fighting principles you need. tai chi ring a bell?
switching from one style to another makes about as much sense as training in 10 different arts at one time.....you might learn a lot of cool tricks and neato forms....but the one thing you're not doing is understanding the core principles of movement.
the point of forms, from my point of view, is study of movement.
you can flap your arms like a bird......but if you dont leanr the principle behind it, you're just flapping your arms trying to hit someone.
if 7* is thoroughly versed in his mantis......you could know 10,000 forms but not know how or what they are teaching you....you're just acting. his knowledge of concept and understanding of movement will defeat you. and this is true of any martial artist.
if a martial ARTIST (and i am using this term in the truest sense of the word) understands movement and motion.......it doesnt matter how much you dance around, because he could beat you while pretending to brush his hair, or eating a ham sandwich.

shawn

 

[clfsean]

...really cool post...

*Golf Clap Ensues* Good post... well done... *Golf Clap Contiuing*


....AND....

I still wanna know who the guy was that went to Greece from Tennessee...

 

[The Kai]

With 6 months training.......



All your forms and techniques should revolve around the principles. even principle based "styles" need to define thier principles to stay on track
Todd

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Well, first let me clarify what I meant by "change". When you say your able to "change" to fit the situation your speaking of chaning styles which also inplies a changing of intent, concept, and principle. When I said I can "change" within mantis, I'm only chaning a techniques within the mantis system which holds to the same intent, concepts, and principles. If you were to kep me at 3 or 4 steps, you wouldn't be able to touch me since 3 or 4 steps would most deffinitely be out of anyones reach. I could just run if I needed to. However, your assuming that because you train to be able to keep people "out" that you can do it 100% of the time. Dont most people train to not get hit? Your still going to get hit in a fight aren't you?

My problem is that you can't possibly know or be able to use all of the techinques and concepts of the mantis system. See, just touchingon the mantis system doesn't mean you can fight the way a mantis fighter would. You may know a mantis set or a few mantis techniques but its impossible for you to know the true concepts and principles behind mantis kung fu by just touching on the mantis for a month or so in your training.

7sm

Great Post!!!

I believe that you could take one or two forms and break them down and do just as good as the 86.

Most Gtrandmastetrs and Masters did just that ,although they knew the entire list of forms within their style ,they usually mastered just 1 or 2.


jeff

 

[InvisibleFist]

When I was shopping for schools I visited a Cinese Shaolin center in california. I chose not to attend there (there was a world class Hung Gar school a mile from my house), but they had my respect. They train HARD.

Saying they are not CMA is just silly. There may be some descrepencies with their history, but they clearly teaching chinese movements and teaching them well.

The whole idea of "Styles" being a descreet school distinct from all the others. is really more of a japanese concept than a Chinese one. Every Chinese master I've met knows dozens of forms. Because forms are so central to CMA, its possible to add supplementary forms for various reasons.

Hung gar is a perfect example. There are four "pillar forms" that make up the "core" of the style. But diferent lineages bring in different forms from elsewhere. Wing Lam's lineage added the Northern Butterfly palm form. Buck Sam Kong added Choy Li Fut to the Hung Gar curriculum.

Really the various "styles" of kung fu have more similarities than differences. They may have "singnature" techniques (the mantis hand, Hung Gar's twelve bridges.) Most of them use the same stances and the same set of basics. When you have strong basics, adding more forms is easy.

 

[sifu Adams]

InvisibleFist great reply. I agree every form I have has a horse stance. And I can show you all the hands of the southern mantis in the tai pang birds

 

[brothershaw]

The main point is that everybody generally agrees that it takes at least a few years steady pracitice to become comfortable and competent in any one style.Doesnt matter what it is.
Even if you lump some things in groups ( judo, sambo, bjj) , (karate, tae kwon do), ( southern chinese wing chun, mantis, bai mei) jumping around within a group can be hard much less training arts that have differnt ways of using the body, different footwork, and hand positions.
So at best Shaolin Do to me sounds like either a mma or some kind of JKD.
As long as it works cool. However the handful of people who i have met who were really exceptional tended to have put in a solid 10-20 years of training in primarily just one thing,soup to nuts.
From my own personal experience trying to learn differnent "stlyes" at once really slows down your progress at least in the first couple of years especially if the body mechanics are not similiar.

 

[InvisibleFist]

Its not JKD or MMA... its KUNG FU. While there are a wide variety of forms they all depend on the same basics. Its just got a wider cirriculum than most kung fu schools.

In China it is very common for a school to have a curriculum that encompasses more than one style...generally the student will learn the theory of several forms, and make one or two his speciality. I repeat, the idea of Styles being encapsulated into specific schools is more Japanese than Chinese. The Chin Woo Association was a project very much like Shaolin do...they established a cirriculum that was the common ground of all kung fu, and allowed its teachers to teach the various local specialities.

much less training arts that have differnt ways of using the body, different footwork, and hand positions.

Thats the thing, the different forms aren't alll that different. Kung fu looks pretty much like kung fu...same footwork, same hand positions, with a few minute differences. Its a lot like cooking...a bechamel sauce is different than a veloute, but you use the same tools (Sausepan and wire whisk) and the same techniques to make them.

 

[clfsean]

Its not JKD or MMA... its KUNG FU. While there are a wide variety of forms they all depend on the same basics. Its just got a wider cirriculum than most kung fu schools.

No... actually it's closer to Japanese karate with some misunderstood Chinese techniquese in it at this point. It may have been kung fu at one time, but that time has passed.

In China it is very common for a school to have a curriculum that encompasses more than one style...generally the student will learn the theory of several forms, and make one or two his speciality. I repeat, the idea of Styles being encapsulated into specific schools is more Japanese than Chinese. The Chin Woo Association was a project very much like Shaolin do...they established a cirriculum that was the common ground of all kung fu, and allowed its teachers to teach the various local specialities.

In China it depends on the school you visit/study at. I've been to a major modern wushu school where everything in the modern curriculum was taught as well as one or two related traditional styles. I've been to two major traditional schools as well where only one style was taught since that's what the schools were set up for. It just depends on where you go & what you're looking for.

From www.jingmo.org website....

Towards the end of the Ching Dynasty, China was weak and politically confused. The country was suffering from one natural disaster after another on top of oppression. The Chinese people were regarded as invalids because of the miserable economic conditions. The idea behind starting a center for martial arts was to help lift the peoples feeling as Invalids of Asia. Ching Wu (Jing Mo)Association was founded in 1909 by Huo Yuan Chia with the aim of cultivating sagacity, benevolence and courage and improving the health of the people. With the failure of the Boxer Rebellion in 1900, the reputation of Chinese martial arts among the populace had fallen to its lowest point since the time when the Chinese martial arts was at the Shao Lin Monastery in the late 1400s. From 1909 to 1939, the Ching Wu (Jing Mo) Physical Cultural Association was able to restore the populace faith and respect for Chinese Martial Arts.

Thats the thing, the different forms aren't alll that different. Kung fu looks pretty much like kung fu...same footwork, same hand positions, with a few minute differences. Its a lot like cooking...a bechamel sauce is different than a veloute, but you use the same tools (Sausepan and wire whisk) and the same techniques to make them.

Yeah but bad kung fu is still bad kung fu. Lack of understanding techniques & principles doesn't make up for a billion forms, shakey history & looking more like something else than what it's supposed to look like.

 

[InvisibleFist]

No... actually it's closer to Japanese karate with some misunderstood Chinese techniquese in it at this point. It may have been kung fu at one time, but that time has passed.

Sean, you're just wrong here. It's NOT Japanese karate, it doesn't look anything like Japanese Karate. Its clearly kung fu. It may in fact be badly performed kung fu, but its still kung fu. The only thing that looks japanese about it are the uniforms.

 

[clfsean]

Sean, you're just wrong here. It's NOT Japanese karate, it doesn't look anything like Japanese Karate. Its clearly kung fu. It may in fact be badly performed kung fu, but its still kung fu. The only thing that looks japanese about it are the uniforms.

Nope... 'fraid not. However if you'll re-read what I said which was...

No... actually it's closer to Japanese karate with some misunderstood Chinese techniquese in it at this point. It may have been kung fu at one time, but that time has passed.

... I added the bolding for the quote ...

In delivery of techniques, power generation & expression... it could be confused quite easily with a "X" flavor of Karate. Not saying it's bad for that (karate), but it's not what it says it is (CMA) & that is bad.

 

[brothershaw]

There are differences from one style to the next in cma, yes they may all use the horse stance , but but wing chun isnt northern mantis, wing chun isnt hung gar and hungar isnt bai mei. Yes a person can know forms and imitate the movements but the energy and the philosphy from one style to the next is different. Knowing a form from observation and being taught how it "feels" are 2 different things.


Even in karate which on the surface looks the same their are still differences
goju isnt shorin ryu which isnt shotokan which isnt kyokushin.
I have bounced around alittle but have stuck to my main thing and theres a big difference between imitating someone because you have some coordination compared to someone who actually knows the ins and outs.

 

[InvisibleFist]

Not sure how we're going to settle this, we are getting dangerously close to "yes it is" -- "no it isn't".

I was going to post a link to the videos at http://www.shaolincenter.com/ but they've taken them down. Obviously they got tired of people ridiculing their technique.

A lot of southern styles (including Hung Gar) have basics which are indistinguishable (to the untrained eye) from Karate.

Sean, what experience do you have with the Shaolin do people? I took their introductory offer, so I've actually trained with them (only two classes, but enough to get a good idea of what goes on.) The first thing they start you with is 18 fists of lohan.

 

[clfsean]

Not sure how we're going to settle this, we are getting dangerously close to "yes it is" -- "no it isn't".

Yeah kinda...

I was going to post a link to the videos at http://www.shaolincenter.com/ but they've taken them down. Obviously they got tired of people ridiculing their technique.

Well the majority of that has to do with them redesigning their website & changing the focus of it. I'm sure they got tired of the flack they caught to be sure considering they were the only school in the entire organization to post videos. Some of the worst bashing came from other schools within the organization that never put videos up.

A lot of southern styles (including Hung Gar) have basics which are indistinguishable (to the untrained eye) from Karate.

To a degree yes. If you've ever seen Yongchun White Crane, it's almost identical to Goju-ryu.

Sean, what experience do you have with the Shaolin do people? I took their introductory offer, so I've actually trained with them (only two classes, but enough to get a good idea of what goes on.) The first thing they start you with is 18 fists of lohan.

Oh a wee bit more than 2 lessons it's safe to say. Where did you happen to take these two lessons? Also... since you're calling me by my name, what's yours? Quid pro quo for more info...