Anybody ever heard of shaolin-do???

[RHD]

Didn't really want to go there but:

It's not a CMA recognized by anyone in the CMA community. It's not silat, it's not karate, so it gets lumped in with CMA.

Silat and Karate are two other marital arts widel practiced in Indonesia. Doesn't SD trace it's history through Indonesia?

The thing that really is unappealing to me personally is the smattering of forms from (or reportedly from) multiple styles of kung fu, but utterly lacking the strategic and conceptual base that makes each one unique. Not to mention the fact that each of these kung fu/fighting systems are comprised as much by the conditioning exercises, drills, and theory specific to them. I mean really, how can you learn TaiChi, Bagua, Black Tiger, Preying Mantis, and White Crane forms and expect to be accomplishing anything other than some physical activity without the style-specific training methods that go with them? Shaolin Do is a modern phenomenon: A little bit of this, a little bit of that, and some belts to earn. Sorry fella's, I know it's going to tick you off, but take the time to do some research on Chinese martial arts and ask the hard questions.

I stand on this.

To give an example:
I'm a practitioner of Hung Gar kung fu as passed down through Wong Fei Hung lineages. Within that system there are 3-5 core empty hand forms that really define the system (Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen/Gung Pattern Taming Tiger Fist, Fu Hok Sheuhng Ying Kuen/Tiger and Crane Combined Fist, Five Animals, Sup Ying Kuen/Ten Forms Fist, and Titsin Kuen/Iron Wire Fist) and 1 or 2 weapon forms (Ng Long Pa Kwa Gwun/Fifth Son 8 Diagram Long Pole, and possibly a butterfly knife set) that can be considered "original".

When I refer to original here, I am talking about what is documented in text from the early 20th century specific to Hung gar as an example of a Chinese martial art.[/B] Unfortnately it's as old as the known documentation goes, but it's from books that detail what Wong Fei Hung taught his students. So yes, it was something I was told, and have read, and even found on the internet. Unfortunately most of the history of Southern Shaolin is verbal. However, this is what is uniformly accepted by the international Hung Gar community, at least those who trace thier history through Wong Fei Hung.

In essence, once learned the forms really need to be put on the back burner so the real training can commence, and it's all very specific to Hung Gar's strategies and theories and wouldn't apply to the way a Preying Mantis or BaGua practitioner moves in a direct way.

I stand on this as an example of why so many forms from all over the place are a bad idea.

What I'm getting at here is that it's so very un-CMA like to have that many forms, from completely different strategies and backgrounds, and expect to produce an effective fighting method from them. My thoughts are that those who obtain martial skill from SD get it from whatever drills and exercises you do in or out of class other than forms practice.

So, I apologize if my opinion upsets you. However, I have no doubt it's an opinion shared broadly throughout the CMA community.

Mike

I stand on this as well...And again, the post wasn't to piss you off or make light of your art. This is a discussion board. I refuse to play "politically correct" so that everyone feels good.

RhD we don't clam to be CMA we are a shaolin art. We do have a core forms in our system like the Taipang Birds and Iron man. There are a complete 18 taipang system and a complete 18 throwing dagger system, they start with training forms and move up to more advance tech.

Well, shaolin is a CMA term. Your profile says you have rank in kung fu, another CMA related term...

Now, the core forms you mention, that is interesting. How do they relate to the other 84 forms? Do they build on the same foundation, work off of the same strategies and concepts?

I have showed some top masters like Ramy Presas, Gin foon Mark, some of the advance forms of the Shaolin do and they don't question it. Master Gin foon Mark who is respected my any style of kung fu walked into my instructors Gym in Hazard KY (yes Hazard, I have photos if you would like to see them) and he walked around the gym and he looked at all the Photo's, certificate's, weapons ect that was on the walls of the Shaolin do system and made the commit as he read the Certificate "shaolin Karate". My instructor walked to the middle of the floor and preformed our brown belt Iron man form we he was done Master Mark said "that's shaolin", my instructor preform a advance taipang form, Master Mark said "that's anchent Shaolin". Standing there in the room and watching Master Mark call the system Anchent Shaolin was all I needed to believe in the art.

Okay, so Remy Presas and Gin Foon Mark liked your stuff. That's fine. Did anyone ever say here it was bad or ineffective? No. The discussion has been: Is it a Chinese Martial Art? Earlier you referred to my belief in something becasue I was "told"...When did Gin Foon Mark become an expert in the area of "ancient Shaolin"? He's a Southern Preying Mantis guy (with a very good reputation I might add), which is a Hakka style and not of what is widely recognized as shaolin origin. Maybe he has some historicall knowledge above and beyond the rest of the CMA community, or maybe he was simply being polite. It's not like he was going to walk into your school and say "you suck"...

Sifu Adams, I have no doubt as to the effectiveness of your style, and your ability to use it. I do think that there's some missing chapters to its evolution.

Mike

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

And so, the general consensus is...

Shaolin-Do = Shaolin Don't. :idunno:

 

[sifu Adams]

You ask about the form and how we train. I have 7 taipang (bird) forms, 3 white crane form, and 3 shaolin bird forms. when I practic I work all the 13 birds forms together, all 9 tiger forms together, all 9 dagger forms, ect. so once I go into the style I remain in the style for that work out. same with the internals. They may be differnt in name ( black tiger, white tiger, ect) but they "build on the same foundation, work off of the same strategies and concepts". I will say this it is not a easy art. you have to put the time in. When I do a form I am shadow boxing as should be with any form. granted you have to use sparring for timing and distanceing but the heart of the aplication should be in the forms. We excel in sparring because we can change are whole way of fighting 3-4-5 times is a single match. If I fight a TKD I am not going to trade kicks with them that is what they are good at instead I might use the mantis try to shut the legs down. At the same time if I fighting someone in judo, I don't wont to fight close I might fight like a monkey go in attack and get out. Having all the forms dose not limmit me to one way of fighting. I have the abblity to change if needed. I have my styles I like most but push comes to shove I will change before I lose. when you fight someone in SD you don't know they will do. they can kick high low, ground fight, fight inside, outside, they can throw, hold, grab, lock, use pressure points, strike, punch, ect... how many differnt ways can you fight?

 

[clfsean]

... how many differnt ways can you fight?

All of the ones you mentioned & maybe a couple more, but the difference is that the majority of us fight with just one flavor ... Hung Ga, Choy Lee Fut, Praying Mantis, etc... Not saying other things are discounted since it may not be what we do, but when we do it, it's done with our distinct flavor.

One of my big gripes with SD is that you never learned anything... you practiced lots of different things (some credible, some not) ... but you never stopped & learned one idea... flavor... style... pai... whatever you want to call it. It was always a smidge here, a smidge there... you never made anything your own by doing just that.

 

[RHD]

We excel in sparring because we can change are whole way of fighting 3-4-5 times is a single match. If I fight a TKD I am not going to trade kicks with them that is what they are good at instead I might use the mantis try to shut the legs down. At the same time if I fighting someone in judo, I don't wont to fight close I might fight like a monkey go in attack and get out. Having all the forms dose not limmit me to one way of fighting. I have the abblity to change if needed. I have my styles I like most but push comes to shove I will change before I lose. when you fight someone in SD you don't know they will do. they can kick high low, ground fight, fight inside, outside, they can throw, hold, grab, lock, use pressure points, strike, punch, ect... how many differnt ways can you fight?

Okay, this is interesting, so how different are the changes? I mean, from mantis to monkey are you using a completely different set of concepts or are you using the same ones adapted to your opponent? What I'm looking at with a critical eye here is that the structure and mechanics of monkey are waaaaaay different from mantis and so forth. How can you spend enough time learning how to use them both? Or is it like: vs. a kicker, we use mantis tactics, vs. a boxer, we use monkey? On top of all the forms, the drills and breakdown for switching like that I would speculate it would take years and years to get even basically competent with.

To compare and contrast with what I practice (and please, the intention is not to say that my art is better!):

In Hung gar we use a few footwork patterns, combined with bridging skills (which must be trained intensively) against whatever comes. If it's a kicker we don't let them kick or make them wish they hadn't. Against boxer we don't let them box, or make them wish they hadn't, etc... I have it on good advice that most other Chinese styles stick to thier guns and don't switch mechanics much.

All of the ones you mentioned & maybe a couple more, but the difference is that the majority of us fight with just one flavor ... Hung Ga, Choy Lee Fut, Praying Mantis, etc... Not saying other things are discounted since it may not be what we do, but when we do it, it's done with our distinct flavor.

This is what I was trying to get at...clfsean says it better. A person reading this will be tempted to say that fighting with one flavor is a disadvantage to someone who can fight with more than one flavor. However, those pai all have thier own methods within them for dealing with the kicker, the boxer, the judo player, etc...The thing here is, working within one style (my bias of course being Southern kung fu styles) within three years of training one should be competent in most situations. The whole idea of it taking a lifetime to become skilled is one of those myths that have somehow made it into CMA training from people who don't really understand what thier doing.

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

We excel in sparring because we can change are whole way of fighting 3-4-5 times is a single match. If I fight a TKD I am not going to trade kicks with them that is what they are good at instead I might use the mantis try to shut the legs down. At the same time if I fighting someone in judo, I don't wont to fight close I might fight like a monkey go in attack and get out. Having all the forms dose not limmit me to one way of fighting. I have the abblity to change if needed. I have my styles I like most but push comes to shove I will change before I lose. when you fight someone in SD you don't know they will do. they can kick high low, ground fight, fight inside, outside, they can throw, hold, grab, lock, use pressure points, strike, punch, ect... how many differnt ways can you fight?

Here is the problem I see. Your abandoning your "guns" or your style to try and fight a "different style" because what your doing isn't working. In my opinion your just simply not skilled enough in what you were doing to make it work. It shouldn't matter what the fighter does, kick high, kick low, punch, bite, scratch, spit. If your system can't handle a certain type of fighter, my advise would be look at another system. In mantis we have ways of dealing with all of the "types" of fighters you mentioned without having to "switch to TKD". It comes down to that "jack of all trades" argument, which for the record, I completely agree with.

7sm

 

[sifu Adams]

Let me go back to some of the history I posted once before. acording to the grandfather of the brothers (and I will be talking about Master Hiang becuase that is the one I know the most. Sin The' is the brother and I only trained under him untill my instructor go sued by him then we when under his brother, long story). master Hiang learned the complete tai pang system from master Lu su Pong who was under his grandfather. after learning the system he was trained by 4 other master who taugh him what would enhance his bird system and would round him out. example is we have a lot of traping tech. Tiger trap, mantis trap, Tai pang Trap ect. we also have a lot of blizing tai pang bliz, prying mantis blitz, dragon blitz. As for the flavor I fight Shaolin Do flavor. this is what I don't understand with all the arguments. If you train in the SD long enough you will find that we have a flavor of fighting. I travaled to Athens greece last year to a tournament and I was watching a guy do countinous sparring. after the first 30 sec. I knew he had been in our art. He had came to greece with a school that he had been with only 3 months. he had trained in a SD school in Tenn. befor that. ( He also won the black belt contenous sparing)

As for breaking our form. we are taugh to bounce from one style to another. What is 5 anamil kung fu? only one style? Bruce Lee even said in a interveiw that in most schools if you can beat the theorys and consepts then you can beat everyone in the schools theory and consepts. That doesn't mean you can beat everyone their, in means the only differnts between the students is one is faster, one slower, one has a faster kick, one has a faster punch ect. Bruce lee took theory and consepts from everywhere put them together and became veary good. His ability to change is what made him so tough. you can not walk into my school and fight me beat me and expect to beat all my student. they all have diffent ways of fighting. because some like the mantis, drunken, birds, drangon, tigers ect... what works for me may not work for my student. example in tkd they love to kick to the head. well I am 5'5" and if I try to kick someone to the head that is 6'10" it will take 3 days for my foot to get there and if he is kicking back his leg will reach me 2 days be for my leg gets even close.
by teaching and learning the diffent forms in our system then I know what it takes to kick head level. and that helps me know how to defend from it. do I think there is some problems with the art yes as with all styles. I do feel we have a better chance at recovery that what most styles have. I something don't work what do you do? in a perfect would everything works but I don't live it that world. I may like mantis but what if I crossed 7* and he is better at mantis than me should I take my loss? or make him work by changing my whole theroy to tiger or Hsing I or monkey. even for a brief min. would that catch you off gard? I'm asking you to think about your art. Do you know how to spar someone in the monkey style, Hsing I, Tiger, drunken, snake, bird system? have you ever spared anyone that has done these styles? if not how do you know your art will work when you do face it? I know how I will react because I do the styles all the time I know the basics of the systems. my main style is tai pang bird. but you art going to supprise me with the mantis.

 

[sifu Adams]

7* your right in SD it dose not make a differnts in what you throw at me I can change to a differnt style with in my SD system just like you change within you mantis to fit. or are you saying you use the same block on every move? you use differnt hands to fit differant moves. How would you fight if I was able to use the bird to keep you from moving in close. If I keep you at a 3-4 step spacing. I know how to close the gap and I know how to keep the gap wide do you?

 

[clfsean]

You get better by working one thing to fit anything that's thrown at you. You get better by not doing a smidge of this & a smidge of that. You get better by focusing your efforts & adapting to whatever attack is coming at you with what you do. With that in mind, why would I try to learn something I don't practice all the time to try to fight with? I've learned a couple of PM sets & they're fun to play, but I don't try to use them in class. Since they're not my focus, I'd be at a disadvantage in using them.

As far as fighting other CMA styles, why switch to something different to try to combat them?? One of two things has happened in that scenario... 1) You're fighting a way better fighter & the best thing to do is go have tea & not fight... 2) Your training may not have been as comprehensive in nature as originally thought & switching gears constantly is a reflex that is prolonging the inevitable.

Do one thing... maybe two... do them well & don't sweat the rest. If you'll notice many "old school" CMA guys may know sets from several different systems, but only practice/teach one, maybe two styles at most. Why?? Keeping the techniques clean & reflexes unhindered.

 

[RHD]

Do you know how to spar someone in the monkey style, Hsing I, Tiger, drunken, snake, bird system? have you ever spared anyone that has done these styles? if not how do you know your art will work when you do face it? I know how I will react because I do the styles all the time I know the basics of the systems. my main style is tai pang bird. but you art going to supprise me with the mantis.

This is what we're getting at. You are doing forms, but are you working the theories, concepts, mechanics and strategies of each of those systems? We are fort he most part saying that each one of those is unique with its own methods for dealing with different types of oppnenets, but staying within the system. Not to mention the supplementary training and conditioning specific to each.

Even within five animal kung fu, though there are distinct differences between each animal there are a few very important ideas. One is that you pick one that suits you best and stick with it. Another, and more interesting is that most schools only have a five animal form. That's it. just a form, and it's mostly for show. Also, the very few "pure" five animals systems that there are, and thses are extremely rare...all of the animals work off the same basics. The hand shapes change, and there are a few unique points to each animal, but they work off the same base and are clearly within the same system. I doubt many people will ever see a true five animal style in action.

There's lots of kung fu in Ohio...Mantis, even monkey if my memory serves me right. It would be of tremendous benefit to you to check some of them out and spend a little time training in them.


Mike

 

[The Kai]

I travaled to Athens greece last year to a tournament and I was watching a guy do countinous sparring. after the first 30 sec. I knew he had been in our art. He had came to greece with a school that he had been with only 3 months. he had trained in a SD school in Tenn. befor that. ( He also won the black belt contenous sparing)
He only trained in your style for 3 months??
Todd

 

[7starmantis]

7* your right in SD it dose not make a differnts in what you throw at me I can change to a differnt style with in my SD system just like you change within you mantis to fit. or are you saying you use the same block on every move? you use differnt hands to fit differant moves. How would you fight if I was able to use the bird to keep you from moving in close. If I keep you at a 3-4 step spacing. I know how to close the gap and I know how to keep the gap wide do you?

Well, first let me clarify what I meant by "change". When you say your able to "change" to fit the situation your speaking of chaning styles which also inplies a changing of intent, concept, and principle. When I said I can "change" within mantis, I'm only chaning a techniques within the mantis system which holds to the same intent, concepts, and principles. If you were to kep me at 3 or 4 steps, you wouldn't be able to touch me since 3 or 4 steps would most deffinitely be out of anyones reach. I could just run if I needed to. However, your assuming that because you train to be able to keep people "out" that you can do it 100% of the time. Dont most people train to not get hit? Your still going to get hit in a fight aren't you?

My problem is that you can't possibly know or be able to use all of the techinques and concepts of the mantis system. See, just touchingon the mantis system doesn't mean you can fight the way a mantis fighter would. You may know a mantis set or a few mantis techniques but its impossible for you to know the true concepts and principles behind mantis kung fu by just touching on the mantis for a month or so in your training.

7sm

 

[clfsean]

My problem is that you can't possibly know or be able to use all of the techinques and concepts of the mantis system. See, just touchingon the mantis system doesn't mean you can fight the way a mantis fighter would. You may know a mantis set or a few mantis techniques but its impossible for you to know the true concepts and principles behind mantis kung fu by just touching on the mantis for a month or so in your training.

7sm

Give that man a Twinkie & Beer!!! artyon:

 

[7starmantis]

Give that man a Twinkie & Beer!!! artyon:

Hey now, its only 8am here!!

7sm

 

[sifu Adams]

How long do you practice a form I do all mine at least 3 times a week if not 4-5 a week. You keep saying only a few months in the style. do you believe you need all the forms in your system to fight? I believe that you could take one or two forms and break them down and do just as good as the 86. however if you work on the 86 just as hard as you would the one or two what do you think would happen. One of the problems I see in the SD system is just that. many of the students only work on the form 2-3 months then put it on the self. in that case i would agree with you. but I train as hard at all my forms. And I believe that is the diffenance in what I see in the SD system. If I train in your mantis forms 3-4 times a week do you think I would be any good at it?

 

[7starmantis]

How long do you practice a form I do all mine at least 3 times a week if not 4-5 a week. You keep saying only a few months in the style. do you believe you need all the forms in your system to fight? I believe that you could take one or two forms and break them down and do just as good as the 86. however if you work on the 86 just as hard as you would the one or two what do you think would happen. One of the problems I see in the SD system is just that. many of the students only work on the form 2-3 months then put it on the self. in that case i would agree with you. but I train as hard at all my forms. And I believe that is the diffenance in what I see in the SD system. If I train in your mantis forms 3-4 times a week do you think I would be any good at it?

Actually no. I dont think training in a mantis form 3 -4 times a week would make you good at it. I do all of my forms 5 times each 5 times a week at a minimum. However that is just one very small part of my mantis training. What makes you fight like a mantis practitioner isn't the amount of mantis techniques you have, or the amount of mantis forms you know. Its the concepts and principles of the mantis system. I'm sorry, you just can't take a few mantis forms and practice them and truly know the principles and concepts of the mantis system, any system for that matter. Your relating doigna mantis form to fighting like a mantis fighter, thats simply not the case.

7sm

 

[RHD]

How long do you practice a form I do all mine at least 3 times a week if not 4-5 a week. You keep saying only a few months in the style. do you believe you need all the forms in your system to fight? I believe that you could take one or two forms and break them down and do just as good as the 86. however if you work on the 86 just as hard as you would the one or two what do you think would happen. One of the problems I see in the SD system is just that. many of the students only work on the form 2-3 months then put it on the self. in that case i would agree with you. but I train as hard at all my forms. And I believe that is the diffenance in what I see in the SD system. If I train in your mantis forms 3-4 times a week do you think I would be any good at it?

I believe that you could take one or two forms and break them down and do just as good as the 86.

Actually, you'd be much much better off rather than doing just as good. This is what we've been trying to say. There's no way you can conssitently do this with 86 forms. Heck, even 10 forms would be an incredible undertakeing. You'd have to be spending a good 6 hours a day doing this and need training partners available as well...
Mike

 

[clfsean]

I travaled to Athens greece last year to a tournament and I was watching a guy do countinous sparring. after the first 30 sec. I knew he had been in our art. He had came to greece with a school that he had been with only 3 months. he had trained in a SD school in Tenn. befor that. ( He also won the black belt contenous sparing)

What's his name?? I know many of the people in Tennessee... who is he? Drop the name...

 

[sifu Adams]

I disagree. I think with the flow of the forms that we do you can be consistant in the system the 86 forms gives me more information and ways of fighting than any other style I have seen. if I have 300 ways to attack and you have only 2-3 what happens if the three you use don't work? If you watch football they don't run the same play over and over or even run the 4-5 plays over and over. they have all differnt ways depending on how the defence is set up. they don't pass on every play because the QB has a good arm. they have so many plays with hopes that they can confuse the defence and keep them wondering what they are going to do next. This is the way we fight. we change and change and change so our oppont dose not know what we are going to do next. I can fight you 2-3-4 times or more and never fight the same way. I think what everyone is missing is the ability to change is the heart of the system. That is why we do well in sparing, we can change with out notice. just when I convince you I am going to kick low I kick high ect. the anamials in the art teach you this. the ground dragon teachs you to attack on the ground with legs and hands. it teaches you locks, take downs, breaks and evading movements from your back. not a place I wont to be but I can recover quickly or use it to a advange if I have to. I may not be a expert in every style and I have never made that claim, the Tai Pang bird is what we do that is the Main style on master Hiang side is. Many of the students and instuctors I see on this sight has trained in 3-4-5 differnt styles why? how many have you trained in and why did you change? Not everyone but most train in diffent styles becuase they needed work in a differnt area of sparing. I think this is where the SD system uses the differnt forms.

 

[RHD]

I disagree. I think with the flow of the forms that we do you can be consistant in the system the 86 forms gives me more information and ways of fighting than any other style I have seen. if I have 300 ways to attack and you have only 2-3 what happens if the three you use don't work? If you watch football they don't run the same play over and over or even run the 4-5 plays over and over. they have all differnt ways depending on how the defence is set up. they don't pass on every play because the QB has a good arm. they have so many plays with hopes that they can confuse the defence and keep them wondering what they are going to do next. This is the way we fight. we change and change and change so our oppont dose not know what we are going to do next. I can fight you 2-3-4 times or more and never fight the same way. I think what everyone is missing is the ability to change is the heart of the system. That is why we do well in sparing, we can change with out notice. just when I convince you I am going to kick low I kick high ect. the anamials in the art teach you this. the ground dragon teachs you to attack on the ground with legs and hands. it teaches you locks, take downs, breaks and evading movements from your back. not a place I wont to be but I can recover quickly or use it to a advange if I have to. I may not be a expert in every style and I have never made that claim, the Tai Pang bird is what we do that is the Main style on master Hiang side is. Many of the students and instuctors I see on this sight has trained in 3-4-5 differnt styles why? how many have you trained in and why did you change? Not everyone but most train in diffent styles becuase they needed work in a differnt area of sparing. I think this is where the SD system uses the differnt forms.

You are totally misunderstanding what we are saying.

if I have 300 ways to attack and you have only 2-3 what happens if the three you use don't work?

We are not talking about numbers of techniques. If you think forms are about the techniques within them, then you are definately not CMA. The forms of a system, while they contain technique, are all about strategies and concepts.

If you watch football they don't run the same play over and over or even run the 4-5 plays over and over. they have all differnt ways depending on how the defence is set up.

Ugggggggggghhh!!!!!!

Each style has it's own methods for dealing with different kinds of attacks.

You don't have to switch styles to deal with different opponents.

You don't have to go mantis-monkey-tai bird-tiger-hsing yi because you are facing different attacks or fighting styles. You simply need to know one style and how it works against those things.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Mike