Any thoughts on this org?

[dmdfromhamilton]

Does anybody have any thoughts on the World Dahn Moo Do Association found at www.dahnmoodo.com I am a member of the association and they seem like good martial artists and nice people. I am also looking to see if any ppl on martial talk study dahn moo do.

 

[Zepp]

Welcome to the board.

I'm not familiar with your organization, but maybe you can change that. Please tell us about the art and your training.

 

[dmdfromhamilton]

The founder Hak-Sup Lee started taekwondo and judo at 8 and started to learn koong joong moo sool (royal court martial arts) sado moo sool (family/tribal martial arts) and Bulkyo moo sool (budhist martial arts) at during high school.In korea he assisted in training the ROK special forces in martial arts. Later he came to Canada and started the association and the art by combining the arts he had studied.Later he published manuals for the techniques under black belt which are basicly quick reference quides for students learning the techniques. The training at my level 8th/ 13 gup mostly consists of punches, kicks, breathing, basic weapons, break falls/rolls and joint locks/ takedowns. At higher levels philosophical aspects, acrobatic elements, ground fighting and many different weapons are added.

 

[Miles]

The founder Hak-Sup Lee started taekwondo and judo at 8 and started to learn koong joong moo sool (royal court martial arts) sado moo sool (family/tribal martial arts) and Bulkyo moo sool (budhist martial arts) at during high school..............The training at my level 8th/ 13 gup mostly consists of punches, kicks, breathing, basic weapons, break falls/rolls and joint locks/ takedowns. At higher levels philosophical aspects, acrobatic elements, ground fighting and many different weapons are added.

Welcome DMD!

Whenever I see those 3 classifications of arts, I think Kuk Sool Won. Has the founder of Dahn Moo Do ever studied that art?

Miles

 

[dmdfromhamilton]

To be honest i'm not sure. Though i have seen the Kuk Sool Won forms and they are sort of similar to ours. But i can deffinately see that possible as our association used to be called the world dahn moo do association and kuk sool won canada and our org holds the right to the kuk sool won name in canada and also saw 2 kuk sool won black belts show up at an association only seminar.

 

[MichiganTKD]

It says on the DMD website that HS Lee is the founder of DMD as well as 9th Dan in the style. Verrrry interesting.

 

[dmdfromhamilton]

I thought it was normal for founders to assume high ranks in their arts. also i've seen nonfounders with 9th dan ranks so what makes it so interesting?

 

[Zepp]

What's the ranking structure like in the World Dahn Moo Do Association?

 

[dmdfromhamilton]

before black belt depends on the school ( i know this for sure) but is divided into three levels cho geup ban (begginers level) joong geup ban (intermediate level) and go geup ban (advanced level)
after black 1st to 8th bb for students and 9th for the head i think i'll have to ask someone though. As far as i know the highest that has been granted to a student is 7th dan

Also did anyone check out the teachng oppertunities for black belts section.
If you did and you felt that was a bit much for a week i will offer some clarification; our cho geup ban is actually quite short. 2 open handed forms and one weapons form (the weapon is used as extension of the hands and the movements are very close to the open handed movements)and just of few techniques

wich: are realease principles 10, Pressure point hand strikes 12, pressure point foot strikes 10 (i think), Basic Wrist Tchniques 3, Basic Defense against clothing seizes 3, cross wrist techniques6 (i think), attacking techniques , defense agaisnt kicking. and they arn't really hard to learn because all the techs are really related.

 

[MichiganTKD]

I find it interesting that HS Lee assumes 9th Dan in the style/organization he founded. In order to achieve rank, whatever that rank is, someone had to recommend you. Did he recommend himself?
And no, legitimate style founders do NOT give themselves high rank in their arts or organizations. They organize and teach their style, but do not proclaim themselves 9th Dan or whatever in it. Ueshiba did not; Choi did not; Kano did not. They simply go on whatever rank they attained in the arts they came from. It is unseemly and crass (my opinion) to proclaim yourself 9th or 10th Dan in an art or organization you founded. Head or Senior Instructor is sufficient.
And I'm not singling out DMD. Many other arts and organizations are guilty of the same thing.

 

[dmdfromhamilton]

Actually now that i've read over the site i can see something clearer. he does not refer to himself as the founder of Dahn Moo Do more than once. However allmost everywhere else he is refered to as a ninth dan. However it does refer to him alot as founder of the association which are 2 different things. Also didn't the founders of taekwondo give out ranks to each other as they only had low rankings in karate?. And as for recommending himself alot of ppl don't believe in answering to sokeship councils etc. for rank regonition however if he had gone that road i'm pretty sure he would've had at least one 8th dan going for him. This 8th dan now holds a 7th in dahn moo do (his old style was very similar)and i believe he was with Lee before the name dahn moo do was used and i can almost be certain he would have recomended lee. also the older teachers 6th dan and up i believe were also with him before dahn moo do was used as a name and i believe they would have.

 

[canadiangirl09]

I am a friend of dmd from hamilton and also a member, and with all due respect why do you think your way is right? everyone has a different way.

Canadian Girl 09

 

[MichiganTKD]

Because I believe in promoting integrity in martial arts. Again, I think it is unseemly to proclaim yourself a 9th or 10th Dan in a style you founded or an organization you founded. Doing so implies you have a big ego because a true Master would never proclaim himself 9th Dan. You are 9th Dan, or whatever Dan, when your peers or other Masters, who do not have a vested interest in seeing you promoted, say you are whatever Dan. I will be 5th Dan when A. my Instructor decides I have met the criteria to be recommended and B. when other Masters who do not care if I pass or fail judge and recommend me (or not) to pass 5th Dan. I will not be 5th Dan when I decide I want to be 5th Dan.
Let's say, hypothetically, I decide to found my own style. Even if I develop all the forms, develop the curriculum, decide how it will be taught, and begin teaching, I am still not a 9th Dan in that style. I am a Dan holder in Tae Kwon Do or X martial art who founded a style based on ideas I wanted to pursue. I might refer to myself as Head Instructor of that style until I retire and pass the duties onto a senior student or students, but I am not 9th Dan. Why? Because it is unseemly and egocentric to declare yourself a 9th Dan in an art you created. Does it happen? All the time. Is it right? Nope.
For the record Won Kuk Lee, the Father of Korean Tae Kwon Do, never declared himself 9th Dan in anything. He taught based on what he had learned over the years, but never promoted himself.

 

[dmdfromhamilton]

never said he did said the founders did. I have read many places hat the first kwan heads during the stages of building up the various associations slowly gave each other ranks such as promoting themselves from 2nd dan to 4th dan (keeping in mind that in those days dan ranks didn't go that high in karate) Though some people find it unseemly to do so i find it the oposite that really it helps to develop a sense of structure especially when the organization is becming multi-art which the dahn moo do association is trying to do. What i would find unseemly if a founder chose to display old rank and the new rank. however i think either is acceptable by itself. ie. say i found a style having ranks in 4 others. It would be unseemly to proclaim myself a ninth or tenth dan and still display my old rankings. However it would be fine to be the ninth or tenth dan of this style and not display my old ranks or displ;ay my old ranks and just be the headmaster of the new style. And why are we having such a disagreement over minor matters like that. i think the thing that matters most is that the quality of martial arts is high not weather someone can say i'm the headmaster and 9th dan of this style.

 

[Dusty]

oh come on michigan. if that was the case, then we would never have any high ranking black belts. someone has to promote. so who is it going to be? tkd choi was never promoted to 9th dahn, as far as i remember he was a 3rd dahn.but yet when he died, he was 9th dahn all knowing all seeing grandmaster poobah of tkd.he was also one of the most respected people in the martial arts. he did a better job of promoting tkd throughout the world then any other martial artist alive. so lets say that you are a x dahn and you feel in your mind that you should be a 9th. how do you go about that? do you just ask? according to you, thats disrespectful and wrong. do you hope a roving band of grandmasters come along take one look at you and go ' you are promoted'. so lets say that a sokeship of high ranking martial artists does decide to prmote you.is that acceptable? or does it depend on who it is? i recall a few months back you were giving master timmerman a rough ride about being associated with Frank Sanchez and his group. so who is acceptable, then? or should we all just look to you for giudance? now, dont get me wrong, i do agree that there are a lot of 'self promoted' people out there and a lot of them couldnt fight their way out of a wet paper bag. but my question is , who decides?

and yes, i am a student and friend of master timmerman. as for me, i have been in the martial arts for 27 years, 22 of those are in tkd and i am just a lowly fourth dahn.

 

[dmdfromhamilton]

i recall a few months back you were giving master timmerman a rough ride about being associated with Frank Sanchez and his group. so who is acceptable, then?

giving master timmerman a hard ride?!?!? all i've ever heard on this board and from my instructors is good about him At least i know that your opinions proably arn't that of a majority...

i do agree that there are a lot of 'self promoted' people out there and a lot of them couldnt fight their way out of a wet paper bag

i totallt agree as i said on my last post (to paraphrase) do the titles really matter its really the quality of martial arts that matters in my mind

 

[MichiganTKD]

Dusty,

In Tae Kwon Do, the Dan ranks were established at the founding of the Korean Tae Kwon Do Association. Nobody promoted themselves, they were promoted by fellow members of the KTA based on established and accepted criteria. The rules and regulations governing Tae Kwon Do in Korea were slowly being formed and evolving. Everything was done withing the matrix of an organized system recognized by the various Kwan Jang, Association, and government of Korea. It was not one man deciding "I'm going to promote myself to 9th Dan and be the founder of my own style."

The following is something I dug up from the TKD Tutor website regarding self promoting "sokes":

The Making of a Soke
​

When correctly used, the Japanese term "Soke" refers not to the founder of a specific martial arts system but to a student who has inherited or is named by the predecessor as the successor of the leadership of the system. However, nowadays, the term is often used to refer to the founders of martial art systems themselves as well as to the "founders" of martial art styles. See Styles.

Theoretically, every martial arts system, even the very first one, whatever that may have been, had a founder, or a soke. From that one soke, now there are thousands. Why have the martial arts generated so many sokes?

One way to found a new martial art is to come up with a new way to fight, but how many different ways may a human being with two arms and two legs fight? Basically, to fight another person or animal with empty hands, a human may: strike (using hands, feet, elbows, etc.) or grapple (using throws, pins, hold owns, locks, chokes, pressure points, etc.). This means you really need only two martial art systems: (System A) striking and (System B) grappling. This means you only need two sokes. But, how do you accommodate the super egos of so many martial art masters that also desire to be sokes?

You do it by creating variations of one of the original two martial arts, such as by only using kicks from (System A) and creating (Style A1), or only using throws from (System B) and creating (Style B1). Need more styles? Then use parts of (System A) and (System B) to create (Style A1B1), (Style A1B2), etc. and then create versions of each of these style (Style A1B2a), (Style A1aB2b), etc.). In this manner, you may create an infinite number of styles, each with its own soke.

Why do we need so many variations anyway? There are few other sports with so many variations, and ever fewer with a supreme master for each variation. As an example, lets examine the lowly ball. A small may be small, such as a table tennis ball, or large, such as a basketball. It may be soft, such as a tennis ball, or hard, such as a baseball. It may be round, such as a soccer ball, or oblong, such as a football. When these differences are combined with the different types of materials with which balls may be made, you come up with hundreds, perhaps thousands of ways a ball may be constructed. Now consider all the sports that use a ball for play. There are many, but still relatively few considering the number of types of balls that are available. Why is this? Take the basketball for instance, it has been in use for over 100 years, why have not numerous styles of basketball play been founded. Is it because the original basketball game is so perfect that it does not need improvement? Granted there have been minor rule changes to the game through the years but it is still basically the same game as invented in 1891. Some variations of the game have been founded through the years, but they have been viewed as eclectic and useless and have quickly passed into oblivion. Rather than change the game, basketball players have been content to play the game and try to be the best at the game that they may be. Rather than just striving to be the best an existing martial art, which will take a lot of hard work and may never occur, many martial artists simply found a martial art that conforms to their ability and declare themselves the grand master of the art.

Some may say, basketball is a sport and not related to combat so it is not fair to compare it to the martial arts. Well, lets examine the handgun. Its use is certainly a combat weapon. There are currently only a few effective ways to fire a handgun in self-defense, so why has not some master founded a new way to fire it? Maybe holding the weapon upside down or firing from a one-legged stance or maybe firing it while also firing a Tazer from the other hand. There is no reason to invent a new way to use something that works just fine the way it is.

However, in the martial arts, people feel compelled to found a new way, not necessarily a more effective or efficient way, just a new way, of doing a simple thing, such as a punch or kick. Why is this? Ego is the answer. When you are nothing special in a group of special people and you want to be a special, you create the illusion of being someone special, even if it is only within your own neighborhood. Being the founder of a new martial art makes egocentric people feel special.

Some people think different is better. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. It does not matter that something is ineffective or inefficient, all that matters is that it is different than that everyone else is doing. And what is better than not only doing something different, but being the founder of something different.

Martial arts students start out studying a martial art of their choice. Sometimes they may change arts until they find one that best suits them, but at some point most settle on one art. Many drop out of training after a awhile but a few will train for years until they make black belt. After making black belt, most keep training for a year of two but then many drop out due to loss of interest. Some keep training and making personal progress for the rest of their lives. Some enjoy teaching others so they begin teaching. Most of those who stay with a art are content with growing the art and making it better. However, some have a desire for more power and prestige that they may attain within the art, so they make some minor change to the art, add some impressive sounding but totally useless terminology and wild unproven theories, give their creation a new impressive sounding name, and then make themselves the supreme grand master or soke of the new art.

Taekwondo itself is a mixed martial art. Its founders were black belts in Karate, mostly Shotokan, who combined the Shotokan techniques with traditional Taekkyon techniques to create Taekwondo. Since its beginning in 1955, it has also been a victim of masters who were not content to be merely masters of a art, they wanted to be grand masters of "their" art. Some formed new organizations but kept the name Taekwondo, while others changed the name. Some made slight modifications to the art, while others made major changes. The way it stands now, if you meet a person who also studies Taekwondo, you may find his or her version of Taekwondo is entirely different from your own.

As stated before, every martial art had a soke at one time, even the traditional martial art systems that have been around for decades or even centuries. Some of these were probably started for the same reasons as stated above. Just because a martial art style is old does not make it any less a bogus martial art. Can you imagine a modern, or even ancient, soldier falling to the ground and fighting in the "Drunk Monkey" Kung-fu style when facing the enemy.

Want to make yourself a soke?

Here are some tips on how to make yourself a soke:

• Obtain some training in a current martial art. No need to become proficient in it, just learn its terminology, basic movements, and theories so you may convincingly act as if you know what you are doing. Even better is to train in a number of arts for a few months each so you may claim expertise in all of them.
• Learn how to market a martial art. Watch how the McDojo organizations market their product. With good marketing, you may convince the uneducated public to believe almost anything is true. Look at the success chiropractors have had.
• Learn how to manipulate people. Some people are naturals at manipulating others, but with practice, anyone may do it. All you need is some charisma, real or fake, and no morals. Watch psychics, new age healers, television preachers, etc., they are experts at manipulating gullible people.
• Learn the standard put-downs of all the long-established martial arts. Just as with politicians, when you do not have anything real to offer, you try to discredit the opposition.
• Instead of inventing a new way to deal with an old problem, come up with some new technique and then make up a reason to use it. For example, instead of simply slipping or deflecting punches, invent a way to wave your arms around in "sticky hands" movements. Now make up a reason to use the technique, such as against another person who attacks you with little, slow pawing attacks. Then be sure to only demonstrate or use your new techniques against a fellow practitioner. Do not make the mistake of using sticky hands against a puncher.
• When your techniques do not work, claim it is due to "individual differences," the person was not tying hard enough, or claim it is due to some mystical reason, such as there was a diversion of ki or the moon was in the seventh house.
• Wear some outrageous looking uniform that make you look similar to a tribal chieftain or the king of a country.
• Have your students wear some cool looking uniform that is different from those traditionally worn by martial artists.
• Learn to make your most insignificant achievements seem extraordinary. Look at Senator John Kerry. He has used four months spent in Vietnam 30 years ago as a reason why he should be the commander-in-chief of all the United States military forces.
• Claim to have served in the military or military special forces. Check out this master: http://www.phonyveterans.com/Gyi.html.
• When speaking, touch people a lot. Use techniques that require a lot of touching. People feel reassured and trusting when they are touched. Many "healing" arts use this technique.
• Remember some principles of the con (politicians use these all the time):
  • It does not have to be true, you only have make people believe it is true. For example: the middle class pays all the taxes, a copper bracket will heal, or ki will give you incredible powers.
  • If you do not know the truth, you will be happy. For example: an unknowing wife of a cheating husband may be happy with her marriage, or a student who thinks his instructor is a great martial arts master, not knowing all the master's credentials are fake.
  • If you repeat a lie numerous times, it will be accepted as the truth. For example: the natural way is better than modern medicine, or bobbing up and down similar to a fishing bob when moving will add power to your punches. The more you tell a lie, the more you begin to believe it yourself. This makes you an even more convincing liar.
  • When asked an incriminating question, change the subject, attack the questioner's reason for asking the question, blame others for attacking your credibility, or ramble with meaningless statements until the original question is forgotten.
  • Accuse others of trying to suppress your innovations. For example: oil companies buy patents for 100 mpg carburetors and keep them from the public, or accuse traditional masters of hiding to suppress your simple techniques because they want to keep students training in their schools for many years.
  • Stress that new is better than old. For example: claim moving in a sine wave motion is better than the walking motion that humans have used for eons.
  • Stress that old is better than new. For example: claim that holistic medicine is better than modern medicine.
  • Create lots of easy to remember slogans and phrases that people may use when trying to explain your art.
  • Give impressive titles to simple, routine tasks, such as calling a punch "Wary snake strikes fierce dragon."
  • Always demonstrate your techniques on one of your submissive students. Do not try to use your quick knockout slap against a ordinary person, always use a person who believes you have the power.
  • Always demonstrate your techniques on a stationary, passive subject. Do not try to use your pressure point attacks on a person who is moving around and resisting.
  • Do not let your techniques be tested. Do not go to competitions, instead, put down tournaments as a waste of time. Say that you techniques are too deadly to use in competition.
  • Never agree to perform your techniques under scientific conditions, such as using impartial subject or double blinds.
• Cover your walls with testimonials and memorabilia of your successes, no matter how minor. Get your picture taken with some local or national politician, a well-known film star or musician, or other celebrity, and hang it on your wall. All you need is the picture, you can make up a story to go with it.
• All instructors hang their rank or instructor certification on the wall of their offices but you should also hang impressively framed certificates of every conference, course, seminar, or workshop that you have ever attended in your entire life. Also, obtain high rank certificates from every martial art you may find on the Internet. Fellow sokes will be glad to exchange rank certificates with you since it also helps them increase their credentials.
• Found your own international organization to govern your art. Never mind that your only students are in your home city or state. Such as with the Karate International organization in central North Carolina.
• Place official-looking initials behind your name. No need to earn genuine higher-level degrees, simply create your own impressive-looking initials. Use these qualifications and claims to make your business cards as impressive as possible. You can also add titles such as grand master, professor, doctor, etc. You can easily make your own certifying documents on a computer or you can order them online from some other bogus organization.
• Produce a professional website that contains every claim and testimonial that you can invent. Make frequent use of highly sensational, emotive language to sell what you have as "the greatest," "the deadliest," etc. Do not give out any useful information, make people pay for this. Many people will just accept your claims as the truth without ever verifying them.
• Publish books that claim to reveal the secret techniques of the martial arts. Rather than publish one book with useful information, publish books on each aspect of your art, such as just kicks or just throws, so you may claim to have written many books. Publishing a book is easy to do, just fill the book with photos of yourself dressed in all your regalia doing simple techniques, and with photos of someone else who is in good physical condition doing the more difficult techniques that you cannot do, and probably never could do.
• Make claims about past achievements that are difficult to verify, such as being a grand champion of numerous big tournaments. The more distant past, the better.
• Claim to be able to fight multiple attackers because you can "sense" their presence and react to their attacks.
• Invent an art that has the "best" of every other art so you may attract students interested in one of the other arts. Stress that your art is the best because it combines all the other arts.
• Apply pseudoscientific or approximately scientific tests and impressive jargon to convince your students that you really know something. Remember that anything that sounds Oriental, mystic, or similar to something shown in movies, on television, in video games, etc. will convince the ignorant that you are a true master.
• Use "power words" and eye contact along with powerful emotional speaking to make yourself more authoritative.
• Be a close speaker. Get close to people and stare into their eyes when you speak. This helps you control the person and seem powerful. make your school look like a set from a "Hong Kong Phooey" martial arts movie.
• Make your facilities look as impressive as possible. Paint all kinds of oriental symbols on the wall and hang all kinds of martial arts weapons. Photos of other old, fatherly, grand masters hanging on the wall will help.
• Have at least one well-stocked book shelf filled with books on relevant and impressive topics. You do not have to under what is in the books or even have read them.
• Casually drop into conversation the names of well-known public figures or martial artists with whom you have met or trained with, even the most trivial meetings may be elaborated upon.
• Once students are in your program, tell them that you only teach the secret techniques to you most trusted senior students to encourage students to stay with you until that point. When that time comes, you will have indoctrinated the students into you program and there will be no need to come up with the secret techniques.
• Avoid students or people who know enough about the martial arts to question your methods.
• Only hang around with other sokes so you may support each other. Do not deal with legitimate professionals that have inquisitive, skeptical minds.
• Avoid students that have the potential of getting better than you. Stay with people with little self-confidence and self-respect, then you may mold them into you subjects.
• Believe it or not, a big belly and being a physical wreck is a common trait of many sokes. Ability is not of concern to pseudo-masters, it is just the art of the con.
• Never put down another soke. If ever asked your opinion of another soke, simply say, "She has some interesting methods," or "Yes, I have read some of his articles on the subject". In this way you may defuse any encounters and you are not compromising your partnership without other fake sokes.
• Always include comments in your discussions about "Eastern" or "Oriental" secrets because the West seems to accept non-Western material folklore as fact.
• Pronounce Karate as "KUH-RAH-TAE" instead of the standard "kuhRAHtee" or "kuhRAHTee" so you sound special.

TKDTutor
Webmaster
© 2000-2004 by TKDTutor Software
​

 

[dmdfromhamilton]

That was quite alot a link would have sufficed and the taekwondo masters did it the same way many of the con men today they promoted each other therefore how can we really tell the difference till we see them in action

 

[MichiganTKD]

Unfortunately, there was no direct page to link to or I would have provided one. Again, I am not singling DMD out in particular. But others should be aware that Instructors who decide they are 9th Dan or above in an art or organization they founded should be avoided. And people like this are commonplace in martial arts. Human ego can be a nasty thing sometimes.
Check out this link (courtesy of TKDTutor.com) for another great example of a self promoting "Grandmaster":
http://www.itbf.de/html/BiographyGMPDP.htm.
Also:
www.adrianroman.com (The Kenpo people will find this one particularly interesting)

 

[dmdfromhamilton]

Thefirst one all i can say is wow. Comparing 2 titles with a thousand is a bit ummm unorthadox
and the second one i've seen his site looked up the website after what i saw in his add i was disgusted(i won't go into details already basicaly said my stuff in a kenpo thread on it)