Any proof?

[Furtry]

Usually when some one is kicking my *** I don't concern myself with the history of how he's doing it .
Oh, on a personal level, I think that the history of some of the most popular MAs is a bunch of bovine manure also but I don't go around dissing the art or its practitioners. :asian:

 

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Over on the Aikido Journal forum there is a small discussion on this topic. One gentleman posted some interesting links. You can find these in the Systema section of the forum.

mark j.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Most martial arts history is full of conjecture, grandiosity and outright fabrication. In fact most popular history suffers from the same problem. The real question is can these guys fight? In my experience they can and they have much to offer not just as "The System" but also in teaching training methods which can be applied to other fighting systems. Michael (?sp) is a product of the Soviet system famed for its lack of concern about the truth in the history it taught. I've never had the pleasure of meeting him, but the students of Vladamir that I have met have been remarkable. The real truth lies in the System and not in the History.

Respectfully,

Jeff

 

[NYCRonin]

Don
I read that article but know the man who was interviewed also. As a person who seems so interested in accuracy -- let me start with the obvious...its 'Vasilieve', not 'Vasilov'.
Next, if I am correct -- you are of the bu-jin liniage...one I have a small but enjoyable experience with. Sir, I must ask - Do you really believe all that the venerable M. Hatsumi has stated as 'historical fact' about this art? (I appologize if I am incorrect in my statement about your bujin affiliation). Some of the great teacher and friend I know as 'Hatsumi - san' is verafiable...but then again, some is not. To me - that does not matter. What really matters to me, as a pragmatic student of the way - is the fact that he was able to suddenly deal with an untelegraphed straight right sucker punch (thrown full force as he was talking to Taro Yoshikawa, by myself - a multiple B.Belt holder in his late 20's, back then -- (82, Ohio - I think) --) and toss all 170 (then) lbs of me into the air without missing a word of his converstaion.

ONLY ONE OTHER EXPONENT OF ANY MARTIAL SYSTEM HAS EVER DONE SO TO ME! (Though I am no longer as brash as I was then...nor as egotistically stupid).

And that 'one' was Valdimir VASILIEVE.
And he, like Hatsumi-san; is entitled to his recounting of history...regardless of the 'hard facts' that may be lacking -- at least to me.

That mentioned article contained some points I might not agree with -- and guess what? Vlad, nor Michail; require that I kowtow and agree with them. I am free to make up my own mind. As I am free also to allow them this freedom.

I do not believe in the story that 'tengu' taught Uyeshiba the art of Aikido sword -- nor do I believe that any tattooed talisman of an arnisador insures his safety in combat. I do not believe either that any Ba-Gua system was passed on by any of the Taoist immortals....nor do I believe that by being a member of the ROC grants any special insight into the essence of 'the work' of Systema.

History - a wonderful subject. Claimed martial arts history is always much less important than the pragmatic real world skill any art seeks to deliver to any student. Though quoting B. Lee is often the bane of a supossedly 'experienced' martial way-ist - "The living and creating individual is always more important than any estabished style" -- and that goes for any claimed 'history' as well. Mandalas are nice - informative, pretty - but the understanding of them is far less important, to me; than what any exponent can actually do when faced with a violent attack.

Only if the given methodology can get the exponent safely home each evening - can that person spend the time debating the verifyable facts of history. Nin-po, by my experience (like JKD, Savate, Muay Thai, Moo Duk Kwan, Wing Chun, Shoto Kan -- and a few others personally studied) - can get one home safely. I choose to leave the unverifyable to the debating historians -- and dont concern myself with if a nun name Mg Mui was inspired to create Wing Chun by a dream.

There, we can play the role of 'historian' and debate until all the candles burn out.

Ultimately, for me - it is all about getting home -- and the history of the road that I use is not all that important. All that road needs is to be solid and usefull...and The System is such a 'way' for this writer.

I have said all I presently care to add -- I will leave it to the historians now, and will enjoy any debate they call up amongst themselves.

May it be well with you, my friends...This one is home.

 

[Pervaz]

Furtry lol - I like it

Jay - I'm surprised you say that - MK only mentions ROC as an answer to a question - he mentions the commandments becuase he was asked the question regarding which commandments he follows.

Don - I believe Soke is not part of the Koryo either - does that mean what he practices and teaches is not good ?

I think Rob summed it up perfectly - Just want to get home !

ZB - What wrong with MR jumper - I'm goin to ask him where he got it (we're about the same size so I might borrow his lol)

Pervaz

 

[Don Roley]

NYC Ronin,
With me it is a case of a person being as honest as they can. If they are merely passing along the truth as best they can, then I am satisfied with it even if I do not believe what they say.

For example, Moriehei Ueshiba did not claim to have learned kenjutsu from tengu AFAIK, but there are arts that go back a few hundred years that say their founders did. I do not beleive in tengu but realize that stories change, embelleshments are added, etc. If Ueshiba had made such a claim, my opinion would change a lot since as a man living in the 20th century and being the one doing the training I would have to say he was either insane or a liar.

But as long as a person is just passing along what he heard as honestly as he can, then I can respect that. In Japan, not contridicting your teacher is a big thing so we can see that even in the 21st century the Yoshikawa family still maintain that the founder of the Kashima Shinto ryu received a scroll of strategy from the ghost of Minamoto Yoshitsune. I do not beleive it, nor do I think they do either. But they owe it to their forefathers to try to pass along the story as best they can without change.

What cases me concern is the claims being made in the article along the lines that Chinese and Japanese emporers had Russian bodyguards. That is not something I can write off as being just something that is being passed along. There is some very hard evidence that it is not true and yet they are trying to convince others of it. If the story was about his teacher's teacher defeating a tiger, that is just a story he heard and is passing along even if there is no proof that it happened- only talked about to him. But the idea of the bodyguards is a seperate matter altogether.

I do not believe every legend I hear, but I would not train under someone I thought was making up stuff to try to fool me. The stuff in that article makes me think that the latter case is happening. This is very disapointing since I have friends who I train with who do systema and I enjoy the training very much and think it is a very effective system. However, I do not think I am a combat expert who can tell with complete certainty what will really work in real, life or death combat and so I rely a lot of the trust level I can place in the teacher. That is why I was so let down by the article.

 

[Furtry]

Don, some people showed proof of the bodyguard claims. Now you need to show your proof discrediting said claims.

Trust not the System nor the teacher but your self, because you'll be the one dead while the System lives on.

Lastly, as I have the original interview on tape and am a native Russian, MR stated that
“I’m telling the truth” in the context of what he was taught and what he had learned through his personal independent investigations/studies.

I too now go on to train and will not bother with the sifting of bovine manure any further.

 

[Don Roley]

Don, some people showed proof of the bodyguard claims. Now you need to show your proof discrediting said claims.

So where is this proof that the emporers of Japan and China had Russian bodyguards?

 

[Furtry]

So where is this proof that the emporers of Japan and China had Russian bodyguards?

http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6361
The same place where the interview was published.

 

[Jay Bell]

Jay - I'm surprised you say that - MK only mentions ROC as an answer to a question - he mentions the commandments becuase he was asked the question regarding which commandments he follows.

It has been mentioned on other forums that without being part of ROC, high level understanding of the System is not possible. We were told for years of Ivanov's contributions to the Russian Health System, to now have it retracted as though he had no part. Not to say that this isn't true, but which is the correct part of it?

Ever since things were "laid out" for us, I've had issues with the Ivanov situation. It seemed just as soon as the ROC explained that his teachings were "evil" that Systema followed suit and turned their backs on what he had to say.

 

[NYCRonin]

Don - I understand your point of view...to me, in certain things we are in agreement. The whole bodyguard thing is, from my oint of view; coming from a man who is repeating what he was taught by his teachers...and not just making it up as he goes along....for if I beleived he was - I also would be disappointed in his desire to do so -- regardless of his physical mastery.

I do know, for a fact; that the 'translation' of any language is often at the mercy of the the translators skills. I have had students that are native Russians -- and have attended training with MR, alongside with me. The translator at times did his job -- BUT -- my student felt there was a certain different 'point' being expressed. Even saw that back with Hatsumi in Ohio back in '82.
Since I dont speak Japanese or Russian -- I rely on the translators skills - or lack of them -- to get the flavor of the spoken words any teacher expresses.

Jay -- I also was quite surprised at the newer bent to the teachings of Ivan Porfiry and how it was regarded in that interview. Dousing, for example is, as mentioned; an old world thing predating Ivan by centuries...and one not limited to the Russian culture, as Japanese 'kan-geiko' proves.
Since I only recently read that interview, I have had no chance to ask Vlad about his point of view....and truthfully, Vlad is his own person and does not necessarily reflect all the things that his teacher might state....and thats Ok by Misha...as is my non-ROC personal beliefs is OK with Vlad.

The ROC tie to Systema is very much an individual thing. It is not required...and has yet to be 'pushed' on me -- and my teaching certificate in The System is signed by both VV and MR. There is though a certain part of the systema community that is ROC -- and they do like that link to their teachers...and there is some smal degree of pride they take in this link.

This 'being like the teacher' link is not uncommon in martial arts at all...I have encountered it many, many times before. I have even known some members to convert to another religion in their journey to understand and fit in with whatever the teacher follows. I neither judge them nor fault them. To each his own. The fact is that MR is VERY much of the ROC -- and expresses his life-views by this language -- is fine by me. So, I look into that language - as i have done with spanish, japanese, chinese, korean and french -- hell, even the language of the Brooklyn street...and find what is relevant to my journey and 'warrior path'. This has served me well, in my studies of things martial and in life as well.

Don and Jay -- I cant give any answers to certain questions best asked of the gentlemen mentioned....these are best asked one on one. I only offer my personal understanding -- and that is all it is -- MY understanding. I assure you though -- I have never been in the smallest way been made to feel that I must worship at any particular altar nor agree with any viewpoints or historical referenceses made by my friends and guides in Systema. I cannot say that about some other things that I studied 'along The Way' though. I do not feel I have been 'shut out' because I am regarded a 'heathen' by them..they have always been most friendly and open with sharing what I can absorb.

I am entitled to my beliefs, as they are to theirs...as you are entitled to yours. Thats just 'The Way' it is.

 

[jellyman]

So where is the proof that Russians were the bodyguards of Chinese and Japanese emporers?

http://www.cnewa.org/ecc-china.htm

http://www2.gol.com/users/ocj/TheOrthodoxChurchinJapan.htm

http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501020624-263046,00.html

some corroborating evidence above.

This makes a lot more sense when you consider that there are no geographical barriers between Europe and Asia, and Russia/USSR is that grey area in the middle.

You need to be ROC to understand 'higher' systema? I'd like to see a direct quote of that. I find it hard to reconcile with the fact that none of the guys (except for maybe 1 or 2) who teaches at Club Vlad is ROC per se. In fact, many if not most of his best students aren't even Russian! What do they have that most people don't? About 10 years of constant spartan training and dedication under VV's direct tutelage might have something to do with it, I think. Call me a conspiracy theorist. Or there's Jim King who went to EVERY SINGLE CLASS FOR 4 YEARS STRAIGHT. Not Russian, not ROC, not even sure he's religous, but his systema is pretty durn good.

Regards the ROC and systema - the breathing methods used are apparently from monastic prayer technique used by monks who follow a school of thought called Hesychasm. Certainly independent sources show that ROC moinks have these breathing techniques - some suggest they have some link with more Eastern/Asian breathing techs, but this is just a hypothesis. The breathing techniques are very useful, and at a certain level essential. And the ROC has a long and documented relationship wih Russia and especially its military.

If you really want, I can dig up more links, but why not do your own research? you can research "Hesychasm", you can research the ROC and the military, and you can research 'Saint Demetrius' (patron saint of Russia).

If you learn something you didn't know before, that's okay. Russian history is an enigma to most people, including a lot of Russians.

 

[Clive]

This System was used by Stalins personal bodyguards, what better recomendation can you think of? As for proof, what do you mean by proof, just because some guy sat and drew a picture of a bird or wrote on a scroll in beautiful letters, what does this prove? A lot of the skills were derived from experience in battle, village tournaments (see mass attacking) and military based learning, as far as I am aware there is no direct timeline that you see in other arts but more a collaboration of ideas, skills and knowledge. It has already been stated that a lot of this stuff had to be kept secret due to the powers of those times supressing art and was therefore passed through word of mouth within family and close knit groups. There is nothing conspiritorial or mysterious about these circumstances. :idunno:

 

[milosmalic]

.. He, the grandfather, is a Serb.

And now we Serbs train Systema as a national passtime

I must admit that somehow we tend to shoot rather then wrestle or fist fight. Matter of progress.

I am joking of course. There is a lot of proof related to roots and origins of activities we today know as Systema, in the folk fighting styles and dances of all Slavic people. Naturally, using it in urban environment, war or confined space instead of mountain changed it a bit. But not in the fundament, only as improvement for modern using.

 

[Krowley]

just happened upon this thread while surfing through the posts, and i had a comment... I spent a day training with some european broadsword and shield fighters... these are re-enactor types, and i'm not sure how historicly legit their movements are, but they are supposedly based on the genuine methods used in the old days... when i first saw clips of systema, my immediate reaction was that it reminded me of the methods of sword and shield fighting that i saw that day. The teacher showed us how to swing the sword with a whip-like motion so that we could swing around behind the opponents shield. Relaxation was considered paramount, because in the midst of a battle fatigue was a big issue in this kind of fighting. The arm was kept completly relaxed , and you used your hips to generate rotation in the shoulder... We were also taught how to throw deceptive strikes, by drawing our hands up above our heads, and then swinging our arms around in an odd manner so that the strike landed near the knees. The person would flinch and raise their shield thinking they were about to get hit in the head and then the strike would go towards the ground. this resulted in some very odd and deceptive looking striking angles, but they were very powerfull. there were no actual techniques taught, just a few tricks and principles of swinging the blade properly and you worked everything else out through sparring. I have since seen videos of people that supposedly train in genuine medieval european sword methods, and they seem to use the same kinds of motions. My immediate reaction when first seeing systema was that it had to be related in some way to these kinds of methods.. The strikes in particular seem similair.