Any proof?

[Zitterbacke]

Hi, it's me again

Is there any proof for Systema/Ross being an ancient Russian Martial Art which could convince an outsider (that doesn't have the insight a practitioner might have)?
What I often hear is: "No, there is none, since The System was kept secret even from the authorities." - That is a "convincing" argument, isn't it?

Don't get me wrong. I'm a practitioner of Systema and find it very practical.
But there are many martial artists that don't believe in the history of the RMAs.

Greets

 

[SonnyPuzikas]

And...? Those who seek academic "knowledge"- let it be...
Do the work and results will speak for what true knowledge is... And if you get bothered too much by those looking for "black on white" proof of something... :btg:

 

[Jay Bell]

Agreed. History of RMA makes nice campfire stories....nothing more.

 

[NYCRonin]

I have to agree...what does it matter, except to history buffs?
Systema practitoners are usually far more concerned with effectiveness than fairy tales or history...many of us have come from arts with wonderful tales of past glories, but living off the strength of a past reputation, and being unable to make it all work today; is an exercise in frustration at best -- and could be very dangerous to ones survival, at worst.
I would not care one whit if Systema did not exist but for Vladimirs or Ryabcos inspiration and experience.
Ya know, if this were true -- and I personally do not think it is -- to me, this is even more of an exciting idea. Being in the System -- at its very birth, being a part of it at such a point in time...is rather a wonderful thing also.

Some view distant lineage as 'proof' of any arts effectiveness. Although i like history -- I much prefer effectiveness...no matter where or when that effectiveness was born.

 

[Zitterbacke]

Some view distant lineage as 'proof' of any arts effectiveness. Although i like history -- I much prefer effectiveness...no matter where or when that effectiveness was born.

That is a true word. And I think so, too. As I said, I don't have a problem with Systema. But there are others who have.
I can fully understand their sceptical view. And it is very annoying not to be able to prove Systema's history. (Although nobody practices an art due to its history, does he?)

Greets

 

[Jay Bell]

And it is very annoying not to be able to prove Systema's history.

Why does it matter to you? Meaning...if someone thinks the stories of RMA's history are bunk, why does it bother you?

 

[Cruentus]

That is a true word. And I think so, too. As I said, I don't have a problem with Systema. But there are others who have.
I can fully understand their sceptical view. And it is very annoying not to be able to prove Systema's history. (Although nobody practices an art due to its history, does he?)

Greets

We run into the same problem with FMA...tracing it past the last 100 years.

All you can do is use the historical references that you DO know, and then say, "here is what WE think." Unless they have sources to refute yours...then they really have no arguement.

I think there is value in going to the library and finding historical references to support you hypothesis...as history can give insight to your art, and any martial art is a continueing process of education.

:asian:

 

[howardr]

I have to agree...what does it matter, except to history buffs?

I would not care one whit if Systema did not exist but for Vladimirs or Ryabcos inspiration and experience.
Ya know, if this were true -- and I personally do not think it is -- to me, this is even more of an exciting idea. Being in the System -- at its very birth, being a part of it at such a point in time...is rather a wonderful thing also.

Somebody had to make this stuff up at some point! Whether this is the first generation or the 53rd, what is undeniable is that there had to be a first at some point...I say, "Who cares when that is!"

 

[Zitterbacke]

Somebody had to make this stuff up at some point! Whether this is the first generation or the 53rd, what is undeniable is that there had to be a first at some point...I say, "Who cares when that is!"

That is not the question. The point is, can it be proven that Systema is an ancient martial art by means of historical evidence and not some mixed up aikido/jiujutsu/boxing/taichi whatsoever?
By the way, I wouldn't say that Systema was invented by someone, it is more likely that knowledge was transfered from generation to generation which marked a process of evolution due to diverse influences.

 

[NYCRonin]

Well, I can say clearly, based on my previous m.a. experience - that Systema 'does the work' in a manner unlike any of the arts mentioned. The power generation, the fluidity, the many other factors that 'somehow' have been assembled into a cogruent and cohesive whole - this is very different in manner and expression than any of these arts - and the numerous others that I have been exposed to in my 41 years of martial study. I also cant see it as being the result of any single martial exponent that started from scratch.

We can discuss the 'legitimate' history of Systema for a long time - and we will have few concrete examples - few solid agreeable conclusions. The Soviets and their program of discounting the national historical art and replacing them with creations generated under Soviet control -- this saw to it that much of the history and value of the peoples protective arts would be lost. Look at Communist China and the 'Wu-shu' as an olympic sport. If not for the Taiwanese, Hong Kong and other ex-patriates that fled the Communists and settled elsewhere - how much of the Chinese Systems would be lost also.

And other than to the curious and the historian -- does this really matter?

I am sorry but it does not matter to me, personally. I have been part of numerous studies that had colorful, wonderful and scroll verified lines of succession - and although interesting and fullfilling to a certain extent -- they were simply not the 'home' that Systema has become for this writer. I am much more an effective 'real world' survivor than ever before - I find spiritual/emotional/mental value in this 'work' that mostly eluded me elsewhere...and I had good teachers in the other m.a. -- good people - good arts - but they just did not 'touch' my totality like this simple yet complex life way does. This, of course; was probably more due to my 'assemblage point' and should not be viewed as a criticism of those other forms.

I will say - for me - I dont really care anymore about the lineage or the history as much as I do the 'now-ness' of Systema, and the positive changes it has brought to this world weary seeker of the warrior ways. I used to be a historian of other arts I was involved - now, I am a part of a history as it is being written right now. Past history and forgotten records mean little in 'the real' - and the real is what Systema is really all about. Yes, while it might be cool to trace an unbroken list of 'masters' going back to Ivan the Terrible -- that aint gonna happen, ever.

No, the legendary Illya Muromits did not start this art. Maybe Systema is a pure Ryabco creation -- maybe Vlad is truly the only real and creative cohereant force behind Systema as we know it in N. America. Dont know - dont care. At least there is no member of the some non- verifyable and legendary mystical creator that we all must bow to at every session.

Lacking such -- and it is hardly a lack at all - we are empowered by the 'nowness' of the arts growth and development....any 'tradition' we have is a 'living' one. If I had to choose between an ancient history and set techniques - and the free progression of the arts present expression - I choose the later. I have done the 'historical' and the 'now' is so much more involving and exciting..and interesting, at least to me.

 

[Zitterbacke]

NYCRonin, I highly respect your opinion, since your experience in martial arts is almost twice my age. :asian:
And as I wrote before, it is not me that needs to be convinced but that I can truly understand sceptics that have no insight in Systema.

No, the legendary Illya Muromits did not start this art. Maybe Systema is a pure Ryabco creation -- maybe Vlad is truly the only real and creative cohereant force behind Systema as we know it in N. America.

Anyway, if history was based on a lie, not only me would be disappointed but I would offer myself as Systema's new marketing manager immediately :uhyeah:

 

[Don Roley]

I have to agree...what does it matter, except to history buffs?

I have to disagree. I think that the matter of trust is important. So the question should be, is all the people involved in teaching Systema, etc being truthfull.

Here is my opinions on the subject. I do not practice Systema, but have worked out with a couple of guys in Japan who practice it. One of them is an ex- Bujinkan member.

I voiced my concerns over the history to this guy and he came back a while later and told me that it was either Vasilov or his teacher that said that he had been told the history as he passed it along and in the military conditions he was in, he could not question what he was being told. He did not even think to question it. It was not really something he was concerned about. He is just saying what he had been told.

I can accept that. At the same time, I do not believe that Systema precedes the 20th century. If you look at the history of Sambo you find that the Soviets created it based mainly on Kodokan Judo. But in an effort to raise nationalism they created a false history of the art as a Russian one. They went so far as to kill one of the creators of Sambo to keep him quiet.

With that as a background, I find it hard to believe without supporting evidence that Systema existed before the Soviets. Most likely it was created by them like Sambo. Those that came later accepted the lie and thought it the truth.

So, what Vasilov, etc are teaching is the truth as they know it. They are not trying to lie. They are being totally honest and not hyping their art with things they know to be lies.

That is the important thing in my book.

 

[Furtry]

What the Soviets did is synergies Systema. All MAs are affected by culture and geography, as was Systema.
A grand father of one of my students looked at a class and said, "This is the mountain fighting we used to do as kids. What do you, city dwellers, know of mountain fighting?" He, the grandfather, is a Serb.
I, as a kid, used to go to festivals with my Grandpa to watch fisticuffs fights involving 30 to 50 men. The fight went on till one man was standing. That was 1974-1977 in Chipili Byelorussia. Grandpa told me the festival is hundreds of years old.
As NYCRonin said, Systema is very much a modern MA, but it is NOT a lie based on some one else’s history. It is an evolvement of mans physical, psychological and spiritual abilities and understanding.
Unlike the rest of the "traditional MAs" we strive to evolve and this does not illegitimatize our history.

 

[TAZ]

All arts come from somewhere..not all arts are going somehwere...

Marital history is obscured by time and agenda's....The system has a history like any other art,,choose to believe what you are told or not..doesn't really matter. The legitamcy of the art for me is that the main exponents teaching this art can hand my *** back to me whenever they like in ways so subtle I often don't realise I am holding my on *** until its too late!!!.

Seriously though...if the history of the art bothers you, the system is robably not for you...we don't have nice whie suits or belts either....

 

[NYCRonin]

I regret if I gave anyone any indication that I believe that "Systema" - as we practice it today - is naything like a martial art that can be traced back just 150 years. Also, I know that Vasilieve has stated very clearly that 'The System' was a refinement of a compilation of 'traditional' Russian martial methods. I personally do not believe that present Systema existed before the Soviets -- but there are some still surviving 'traditional' 'mountain fighting et al. types -- and I can see some bits of Systema movement in some of them.

I also know that Vlad, being taught this as a military man - would do what I beleive most of us would do under the circumastances - "This is what I was taught...and this is what I teach". I would agree with D. Roley on this point.

The art does have ties to the Russian past before the Soviets though, it seems to me....but that does not really matter to me either. Though Russian in origin, I feel that the art is a 'gift to humanity' -- much like Hatsumi has said about BJK. These arts have a national origin, and some form of history linked to its originating home. yet, a 'living' martial method - in the 'shrinking world' of today - spreads, grows and evolves beyond just the borders or 'nationality' of the source. In this sense -- as a warrior way of self protection and growth....such methods MUST live in the greater world of all mankind.

Vlad teaches the russian martial art he was taught. He is Russian, so also his teachers. Learned in Russia, taught in Russia -- born of Russia. He passes along the 'history' as he was taught it...as does any teacher of any art. The historical researcher might say the claims are false - thats ok. All Vlad - or any of us does - is pass along what we were taught. Same for all arts.

In this art - there are really very few that are concerned with such things - to be expected from a method without belts, forms or rituals....it is the 'doing' that is more important that the 'who did what - once upon a time' - thats what keeps us involved..and insures the further growth and refinement of Systema. There will never be some ancient scroll or tapestry discovered depicting 'movement' as we do it now -- there are videos and DVDs of the 'now' though. Of the two - tapestry/tape or scroll/DVD -- I get more out of the latter of the two of each of the examples. I leave the historical concerns to those concerned with it....I am much too busy living The System...now!

 

[Zitterbacke]

An interesting article was published on AikidoJournal a while ago that brings some information on this topic:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=597


By the way, do you also think the shirt doesn't suit MR? :ultracool

 

[Don Roley]

My opinion of Systema dropped several points after reading that article.

I have maintained that Vladimir Vasilov was transmitting what he believed to be the truth to the best of his ability. His comment about "dark forces" trying to stop Systema from being more broadly taught in Russia now places him in the same catagory as those that talk about the internatinal Illuminati.

And the following just made me lose a lot of respect for Systema,

To speak a little more about warriors, emperors in China and Japan had Russian bodyguards around them for about six hundred years. Many Chinese martial arts masters said that they learned their arts from the bodyguards of the emperor, but they do not mention who those bodyguards were.

snip

Some people may not like to hear such things and there will be many arguments about these points. You understand, why? I will tell you the truth, of course, but I have said these things a number of times in interviews, but they do not usually make it into print. People often prefer to listen to lies rather than to the truth. Sometimes a lot of money is involved.

So where is the proof that Russians were the bodyguards of Chinese and Japanese emporers? No one noticed a bunch of long nosed round eyes in close proximity to the titular head of their countries? The bovine feces level of this statement is the same as that we hear from Ashida Kim! And when people start talking about others promoting lies for monetary gain without being able to show even a little bit of proof my alarms go off.

So, again, where is the proof? My loyalties just turned 180 degrees on the matter. I came in trying to defend Systema, now I tend to think of them in the same light as Ashida Kim and such.

 

[Zitterbacke]

So where is the proof that Russians were the bodyguards of Chinese and Japanese emporers? No one noticed a bunch of long nosed round eyes in close proximity to the titular head of their countries? The bovine feces level of this statement is the same as that we hear from Ashida Kim! And when people start talking about others promoting lies for monetary gain without being able to show even a little bit of proof my alarms go off.

So, again, where is the proof? My loyalties just turned 180 degrees on the matter. I came in trying to defend Systema, now I tend to think of them in the same light as Ashida Kim and such.

To TAZ, Jay Bell, Sonny Puzikas, NYCRonin:
Do you understand why history matters? A basic principle should be, that if you claim something, you should be able to proof it. Otherwise you make yourself and your art untrustworthy. From a strategic point of view it is some kind of clumsy to profess sth. before you got any proof. In addition it becomes obvious that Systema wasn't practised officially in the special forces which means that it was never officially acknowledged (which is a major difference to "kept secret" as I remember) and it therefore explains why so many people have never heard of it.

You are right, this doesn't take away Systemas effectiveness but it doesn't help at all.

 

[TwistofFat]

I do not know much about Systema other than working out with those who train in it. I have been in EPAK for about 10 years and can say these guys are solid.

If they like something you do, they tweak, practice and use it. The school I visited in NC made no claims on any lineage they just invite you onto the floor and see what you know. One of my past instructors thought an angel followed him around (and he often spoke to him aloud). He was a solid MA - My point is if someone says something odd or unproven - it does not discount the experience.

Regards - Glenn.

 

[Jay Bell]

Do you understand why history matters? A basic principle should be, that if you claim something, you should be able to proof it. Otherwise you make yourself and your art untrustworthy. From a strategic point of view it is some kind of clumsy to profess sth. before you got any proof. In addition it becomes obvious that Systema wasn't practised officially in the special forces which means that it was never officially acknowledged (which is a major difference to "kept secret" as I remember) and it therefore explains why so many people have never heard of it.

You are right, this doesn't take away Systemas effectiveness but it doesn't help at all.

Sure. Maybe this approach can help a bit..

Systema, as it is practiced today, is a Soviet creation. The roots of what came to be Systema may date back to the ROC warriors and defenders, but the end result was created within the Soviet military.

As a side note...Don, my heart sank after reading that interview. Just left me wishing I never would have read it. Not only has your opinion 180'd, so has the story of our history and roots... ROC seems to have become quite the thick fog in such matters.

I remember a time where the history and roots were pretty cut and dry. Suddenly, the church and God talk seems to have swallowed those up. Too bad really.. Ivanov being side-stepped now...when he was credited with so much in the Russian Health System. What a shame...

Bah...let the floodgates open