Anti-Grappling Techniques...

[oftheherd1]

your back making things up again
I didn't say they stood there or that they let me, just if I catch them clean they fall over
if I dont catch them clean I keep hitting them till I do

Understand that one of the attributes of a good grappler is speed, another is accuracy. I don't know about other arts, but in the Hapkido I learned, we have many defenses against hand and feet attacks. If a punch or kick is trapped, blocked, or re-directed, chances are that attacking arm or leg is going to be joint locked in a damaging way, and the rest of your body is going to be turned in a way you can't do any damage. Don't expect an opposing Hapkido practitioner, or any other grappling art to stand there and let you do as you will. Same with grabbing an adam's apple. Even if you do it to occlude the carotids, you victim will still have 2 - 3 seconds to defend.

but he has to get that close, wrestling is alright for fat blokes that can't punch

I don't know what grappling you may have done, but from your answers, if you should have to engage in a sparring contest or a real fight, I would suggest you ask your opponent if they are an experienced grappler. If they should deign to tell you they are (they may not), my suggestion would be to immediately disengage and run, not as fast as you can, but as fast as you have to.

I think you are suffering from being over confident in you art. I have mentioned before that while I understand one being happy with their own art, unquestionably being over confident is likely to leave you unhappy and not understanding what happened.

All arts and practitioners have strengths and weaknesses. If you don't know what your art's strengths and weaknesses are, and what your opponent's art's strengths and weaknesses are, you may get a nasty surprise.

As to wrestlers, how do you categorize talented wrestlers who aren't fat, and can punch as well as wrestle?

 

[Andrew Green]

Believe it or not it is possible to defend being taken down.

Wrestlers train this every single practice, of course it's possible.

 

[oftheherd1]

Wait, not grappling with a grappler is a terrible idea?

You suggest that someone who doesn't have grappling experience should grapple with a grappler? That makes a lot of sense.

Believe it or not it is possible to defend being taken down. And while doing so if you give me a chance to thumb you in the eye with a jab...I will.

So which do you advocate, grappling or not grappling?

 

[CB Jones]

So which do you advocate, grappling or not grappling?

Not grappling.

Keep the fight on your feet or disengage and leave

 

[CB Jones]

My point was once you are on the ground it's too late for dirty tricks

 

[Hanzou]

You suggest that someone who doesn't have grappling experience should grapple with a grappler? That makes a lot of sense.

I suggest that someone who doesn't have grappling experience to go out and get grappling experience.

 

[Danny T]

This is post is not to pick on anyone or anyone's styles, but I see some posts here with similar thought process that I've had throughout my training and career.
What if my opponents grappling is better than my standup. That's an objective question I had to ask myself after over 20 years of standup. Even when my standup has served me well in my career. So I joined a BJJ school to find out.
What did I find out? That all the "techniques" I thought would work, didn't! The opposite happened. Those techniques actually set me up for failure.
Now BJJ supplements my stand up very well. While going to the ground will never be my first choice I have enough of a skill set to know what to do if I wind up there.
Plus, lightning hit me twice. I fell in love with another art.

Can't and don't claim to be any greatness in the grappling game. Have wrestled and trained in several grappling arts for years. Have trained with, rolled with, and sparred many very good grapplers to know and understand most of what strikers think they can and will do is just plain wrong...you can have all the opinions you want, you can discuss all you want, you can play vs non-grapplers as though they are grapplers all you want and you will still be just plain wrong. Get on the ground and grapple with real grapplers...you will either be humbled and learn something or you will make excuses and not learn at all.

 

[CB Jones]

I suggest that someone who doesn't have grappling experience to go out and get grappling experience.

Ok. I never said not to learn to grapple.

Only that if you don't know grappling don't think you can rely on dirty tricks. You better rely on staying off the ground and out of the clinch.

 

[oftheherd1]

Not grappling.

Keep the fight on your feet or disengage and leave

I don't know about other arts, but the Hapkido I studied believes in staying on our feet, or no more than on one knee in completion of a trap of an appendage of someone for a strike or break.

Wrestlers train this every single practice, of course it's possible.

I would think so. It may make a difference what the rules are though, if there are any rules. I don't think that has clearly been established.

 

[Andrew Green]

I would think so. It may make a difference what the rules are though, if there are any rules. I don't think that has clearly been established.

Early Vale Tudo stuff had no rules, same fundamentals applied there as they do now. People tried the dirty stuff, it failed without solid fundamentals to back it.

 

[Tez3]

but he has to get that close, wrestling is alright for fat blokes that can't punch

I suggest that someone who doesn't have grappling experience to go out and get grappling experience.

But, but, grappling/wrestling is only for fat blokes,!

Actually I agree one should have grappling experience, whether or not you 'need' it, I find it immense fun and highly recommend doing BJJ.

 

[23rdwave]

Can't and don't claim to be any greatness in the grappling game. Have wrestled and trained in several grappling arts for years. Have trained with, rolled with, and sparred many very good grapplers to know and understand most of what strikers think they can and will do is just plain wrong...you can have all the opinions you want, you can discuss all you want, you can play vs non-grapplers as though they are grapplers all you want and you will still be just plain wrong. Get on the ground and grapple with real grapplers...you will either be humbled and learn something or you will make excuses and not learn at all.

Has a grappler ever been humbled or is that an oxymoron? With the people I train with we consider grapplers the easiest to deal with. When you grab someone who has a connected body you become part of them. When they move you move. Better to stick and adhere than grab. I don't find wrist grabs or leg shoots difficult to defend.

 

[Danny T]

Has a grappler ever been humbled or is that an oxymoron? With the people I train with we consider grapplers the easiest to deal with. When you grab someone who has a connected body you become part of them. When they move you move. Better to stick and adhere than grab. I don't find wrist grabs or leg shoots difficult to defend.

Ok...
Two things then.
1. You and those you train with are simple amazing and far better than most.
2. You and those you train with have never had to deal with grapplers who are intermediate or higher level.

 

[Andrew Green]

Has a grappler ever been humbled or is that an oxymoron? With the people I train with we consider grapplers the easiest to deal with. When you grab someone who has a connected body you become part of them. When they move you move. Better to stick and adhere than grab. I don't find wrist grabs or leg shoots difficult to defend.

And here is the problem with training in a bubble.

I suspect they feel the same about you, at least they would if they tried to match their own completely untrained approach to striking against their own highly trained approach to wrestling.

 

[Charlemagne]

And here is the problem with training in a bubble.

I suspect they feel the same about you, at least they would if they tried to match their own completely untrained approach to striking against their own highly trained approach to wrestling.

And to be fair, it doesn't take a high level of striking skills to pound someone who doesn't know how to deal with it from full mount.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

but he has to get that close, wrestling is alright for fat blokes that can't punch

Fat guys who can't punch:

 

[Charlemagne]

This is post is not to pick on anyone or anyone's styles, but I see some posts here with similar thought process that I've had throughout my training and career.
What if my opponents grappling is better than my standup. That's an objective question I had to ask myself after over 20 years of standup. Even when my standup has served me well in my career. So I joined a BJJ school to find out.
What did I find out? That all the "techniques" I thought would work, didn't! The opposite happened. Those techniques actually set me up for failure.
Now BJJ supplements my stand up very well. While going to the ground will never be my first choice I have enough of a skill set to know what to do if I wind up there.
Plus, lightning hit me twice. I fell in love with another art.

Yep.

I have zero desire to take the fight to the ground in a real world situation, and to be fair, any BJJ instructor worth training under will tell you the same. What I DO want, is the ability to handle myself if I end up there against my will.

Plus, it's good fun and a heck of a workout!

 

[Hanzou]

Ok. I never said not to learn to grapple.

Only that if you don't know grappling don't think you can rely on dirty tricks. You better rely on staying off the ground and out of the clinch.

Okay, but what's the excuse for not learning to grapple? There's plenty of martial arts now that can teach you it in a competent, effective manner. If you're worried about a grappler taking you down, learn their game.

If I'm completely honest, when people come in from other arts, the close contact of grappling freaks them out and they run to the hills. They fail to realize that that contact will benefit them in whatever MA they take up. If you freeze up when someone closes the distance and begins to grab you (and I see that constantly) you're screwed.

 

[CB Jones]

Okay, but what's the excuse for not learning to grapple? There's plenty of martial arts now that can teach you it in a competent, effective manner. If you're worried about a grappler taking you down, learn their game.

Again never suggested that someone not learn to grapple....why do you keep bringing that up?

I've got enough training ground fighting to beat someone with no training and enough training to know not to ground fight someone who is trained.

 

[jobo]

Fat guys who can't punch:

there not wrestlers