Great post!! I especially agree with the last part. I'm always amazed by folks who, when discussing grappling, make claims that they're never going to end up on the ground. While we hope that we dont, I find it interesting how some can predict what will/will not happen.
Grappling is a Waste of time
- Thread starter LuckyKBoxer
- Start date
Great post!! I especially agree with the last part. I'm always amazed by folks who, when discussing grappling, make claims that they're never going to end up on the ground. While we hope that we dont, I find it interesting how some can predict what will/will not happen.
BLACK LION
Black Belt
as far as I am concerned I should be able to end it regardless of what compromising situation I end up in...including but not limited to sitting on a toilet or standing at a urinal. It does not concern me too where it may end up just what can be done to gain the advantage regardless of where or how it happens to be...
blindsage
Master of Arts
I agree with the above as well, but there are a lot of BJJ style ground grapplers out there now who don't think they need much in the way of stand up technique, too. I like the idea of having an awareness of ground grappling, but truly being well rounded would mean you have a good understanding of striking (hands, feet, knees, elbows, body), distance closing (or creating), angles of attack, trapping, standing grappling (in all the variations we've discussed: locks, breaks, throws, pressure points, etc.), footwork, weapons (use, and defense), situational awareness, and ground work (I'm sure I left some things out), but most of the time people who say "You need to be well rounded as a martial artist" these days, are often strictly talking about ground grappling. If you aren't doing ground grappling you aren't well rounded, and if you are, with maybe a little bit of striking training, you're good to go. Maybe I'm wrong, but it sure seems like this is the case in a lot of conversations, both irl and on the net.
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BLACK LION
Black Belt
There is no secret... My background is study-training-practice and PAIN... I let my actions speak louder than the letters I type... Survival is the only way for me to guage my training... not what I have trained or who I have trained with along the way... Survival is all that matters to me... not the accolades or the long winded resumes of experience.... and certainly no the list of who I have trained with and what... results that work are all I care for.You're right, you don't. However, when someone says something, its usually helpful if something can be said to back it up. If someone started a thread on knife defenses, which has been done on here, and I came on and commented on what I think may/may not work, and someone asked me to cite my training and didn't, its a safe bet that my reply and future ones, could be suspect. However, I normally mention my FMA training to backup what I've posted. Clearly your preference to respond with your resume... It seems to happen more often to those who come from a different end of the spectrum, like myself and frankly I am tired of explaining myself. Especially when the "formal training" I have come across has yet to even tip toe around what I have found outside of the conventional realm. Its an internet forum...not an application process to provide security for some dignitary. I do not make it a point EVER to openly ask or question someones experience or expertise despite what conflict of opinion may be... even if its clearly complete bullshido...
If what I type makes sense regardless of the difference of opinion then how I obtained the knowledge and expertise really makes no difference ...
Someone asks about training background, whats the secret? Given the nature of the 'net, I'd rather talk to someone with a solid background rather than someone who learned from a book or watched every UFC since day 1 and now thinks they're a MMA fighter themselves. Not saying that you learned from a book, but you know what I mean.
Sometimes its better to learn from someone who is NO ONE.
Just to wet your whistle. I started trainig traditional karate at five and went on to boxing and some other things... at 15/16 I started training JKD under a member of Tim Tacketts garage(Jeff Taylor)...this spawned into a "fight club" of sorts in which open challenges were accepted... I had the experience of facing a couple local "black belts" in a no rules kind of sparring... I was challenged more than others becuase I was not part of a local well known and established studio or dojo... thier mistake...
I have also trained with and am good frinds with the son of "SURACHAI SIRISUTE".... makes no difference but thats a tidbit... I think you get the idea...
BLACK LION
Black Belt
The training in bjj that I had as well the time is spent observing it never afforded me a real knowledge of the anatomy and its weakness as well as how to exploit it.... it was more of a rush to dominate the other person in hopes to submit them... purely social... never did it afford me the knowledge of breaking down the physioligical structure by weakness or injury... Why??? I dont know... it seems thats the focus these days is submission under social rules of conduct and engagement...
I would rather seize a handful of pectorals while simultaneously siezing a handful of cheek meat topped with a polite finger in the eye in order to subdue someone who I didnt intend to seriously injure or put down for good. rather than an arm bar or chicken wing or leg crank or what have you.... I did however learn some choking which was pretty much my bread while I was training. However allot of chokes are based on them wearing gi or some sort of thick shirt....
I would rather seize a handful of pectorals while simultaneously siezing a handful of cheek meat topped with a polite finger in the eye in order to subdue someone who I didnt intend to seriously injure or put down for good. rather than an arm bar or chicken wing or leg crank or what have you.... I did however learn some choking which was pretty much my bread while I was training. However allot of chokes are based on them wearing gi or some sort of thick shirt....
Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
BL,
When it comes to background information on training, many of us at MT like to know the experience of others because it lets us better judge how well informed a particular person is on martial arts.
Because this is the internet, we have a lot of run ins with people who try to soundlike they know what they are talking about, but really don't. So by knowing a person's training credentials we can better understand where they are coming from with their posts and why they may hold their particular opinions.
We at MT repsect people like MJS not because they are "posting resumes" as you put it, but because they are up front and honest about their training and offer insigths from their training that can help the rest of us with our training. For example, we had a recent discussion about knife defense a while back where his experience in FMA helped strengthen my own similar ideas about defense. By comparing our training backfrounds we can see how different MA from around the world can come up with similar ideas that lead towards principles that can help unlock the path towards mastery.
I try to listen equally to people who have trained for decades and to people who have just begun, but all in all being open and honest about one's training is helpful to understanding each other, our arts, and our personal journies on the warrior's path.
When it comes to background information on training, many of us at MT like to know the experience of others because it lets us better judge how well informed a particular person is on martial arts.
Because this is the internet, we have a lot of run ins with people who try to soundlike they know what they are talking about, but really don't. So by knowing a person's training credentials we can better understand where they are coming from with their posts and why they may hold their particular opinions.
We at MT repsect people like MJS not because they are "posting resumes" as you put it, but because they are up front and honest about their training and offer insigths from their training that can help the rest of us with our training. For example, we had a recent discussion about knife defense a while back where his experience in FMA helped strengthen my own similar ideas about defense. By comparing our training backfrounds we can see how different MA from around the world can come up with similar ideas that lead towards principles that can help unlock the path towards mastery.
I try to listen equally to people who have trained for decades and to people who have just begun, but all in all being open and honest about one's training is helpful to understanding each other, our arts, and our personal journies on the warrior's path.
I agree, and that is my goal as well...to be as prepared as possible, and to be as well rounded as possible in the various ranges of fighting. I was simply commenting on your apparent dislike for the grappling arts.
Like I said dude, it was just a statement. I think its safe to say that Im not the only one who was wondering about the training. IMHO, I think its a perfectly normal question to ask, seeing that when someone makes a comment, such as "A" isn't effective or "B" isnt as good as "D", to back it up with something. I mean, if someone got involved with a grappling thread, I think the person is going to have more weight behind what they say, if they can say that they have a solid background in a grappling art, rather than saying that their only background is rolling with some friends in the back yard, after watching a few Gracie instructional tapes.
To each his own though. But thanks for the background info.
So, basically, you never really got much out of it? If thats the case, I can now understand why you have the views on it that you do. IMO, I think you'd have got much more out of it, if you took the time to understand it better, but again, to each his own.
Ok, I'm confused again....a finger in the eye, but you do this to someone who you didn't intend to serious injure? Let me ask you this....here are 2 scenarios. How would you deal with them.
1) Guy pulls a knife on you while you're at the ATM. Demands your cash. Whether or not you give it to him is optional, but its apparent that he's going to cause you harm with the knife.
2) Bum on the street stands in front of you and asks repeatedly for cash. He never touches you, but stands in your way, blocking your path.
Personally, I think those can be dealt with differently, but if I was going to take a shot in the dark, I get the impression that you'd lay both guys out.
teekin
3rd Black Belt
Ahhhhh, Ok I see your point. I suppose if I was primarily a striker It would be natural for me to turn and strike. But as his arm is already extended, elbow locked, it's so easy to turn trap the arm and crank before he can react. They always grab from behind it seems. Perhaps a frontal attack would be different?
lori
Oh, you can strike if you'd like. In other words, if you choose to not go for a lock, feel free to throw a strike to an open area. Ex: someone grabs your arm with both hands, go ahead and fire away.
If you choose a lock, well, if you're quick enough, sure, you may be able to pin the hand and get the lock, but if not, I like to do something to take their mind off the initial attack, even just for a moment. The strike doesnt have to be a power shot, as its main purpose is distraction, but it'll buy you time to get what you want. Depending on the grab, ie: bearhug from front or rear, choke from front or rear, your best options may be to just strike. Although, an attack from the front does provide some other things to do. Ex: grabbing onto some skin on the side of the ribs/lat area, is a sure way to get a reaction from the person grabbing you.
teekin
3rd Black Belt
I think this is a new thread or at least a split but MJS I don't want a reaction other than him leaving me alone. I am elfin, a size 2, 45 kilos and just starting to put on decent muscle. I don't want to do anything to make the guy pissed off and fight, I want to startle him into thinking I'm a psychotic unstable lunatic who it's best to stay clear of. They guys are already pissy when I'm walking away from them, they are looking for a confontation. THe hand on the shoulder to stop me is my cue. I can step in and throw or turn, trap and jack.
lori
lori
BLACK LION
Black Belt
So, basically, you never really got much out of it? If thats the case, I can now understand why you have the views on it that you do. IMO, I think you'd have got much more out of it, if you took the time to understand it better, but again, to each his own.
Its not that I didnt learn. Its the content of what I learned wasnt applicable to my reality outside the gym. this is where the term grappling gets misconstrued... in chin na or ninjutsu its much different in its orientation and execution and overall purpose as opposed to something like bjj.... the term "grappling" is similar to the term "streets" ... its overgeneralized to the point of confusion.
I am more specific in terms...
Ok, I'm confused again....a finger in the eye, but you do this to someone who you didn't intend to serious injure? Let me ask you this....here are 2 scenarios. How would you deal with them. A finger in the eye does not necessarily mean an injury... it can mean discomfort. It is very easy to control the human head with fingers in the orbital fissures. Do that while grabbing a fistfiul of cheek muscle and a fistful of pectoral or latissimus or trapezius or tricep or bicep etc and you have complaince. By training to be successful at using ultimate force it affords you the ability to guage the amount in which you use. I understand time and place and have the tools and understanding of the anatomy to act accordingly and justly.
1) Guy pulls a knife on you while you're at the ATM. Demands your cash. Whether or not you give it to him is optional, but its apparent that he's going to cause you harm with the knife. Shut him down.
2) Bum on the street stands in front of you and asks repeatedly for cash. He never touches you, but stands in your way, blocking your path. This happens all the time where I live and is simple to deal with. I put both hands up in neutral and tell them sorry. They never insist after the fact. Allot of times I notice them before they notice me and I hand them some change or a buck before they can ask. I have never been cornered by a bum accept when they jump on the car while attempting to wash the windows and then demand cash. I normally just let em work since those newspapers work pretty well.
Personally, I think those can be dealt with differently, but if I was going to take a shot in the dark, I get the impression that you'd lay both guys out. Wrong ... no more shots in the dark...the eyes cant hit what they cant see[/quote]
If you assume everything we wont get anywhere. I do appreciate at least giving me a scenario.
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Maintain distance and try to maneuver him into a more public area. I will make a tactical retreat if possible. If the guy continues to advance, I will do what I have to to shut him down. Most likely take shots at his knees and lower legs. I want to limit his mobility while maintaining my own. If he lunges and exposes his weapon arm to being grabbed, I will do anything that I can to break it, dislocate it, or otherwise render it unusable.
Against a knife wielding opponent, distance is your only friend. Use strikes if you must to gain distance, but gain distance. Strikes are your next option. Grappling in a knife attack is, quite honestly, only a good option if you are attacked in an enclosed space and/or cannot gain any distance.
Broderick's approach was actually spot on. Hold your hands in a neutral manner to indicate that you do not have anything to give (like I do with the family dog after I have given him his milkbone and he wants another), maintain confidence in your body language and go on past.
Honestly, I do not get that impression from him.
I do get the impression that if he is forced into acting that he will not hold back and will do whatever he must to survive. But how many of us have claimed that we would do likewise in other threads? I know that I have.
Much of our discussion on self defense, such as this one, presupposes that an attack has occurred or is imminent, or are couched in terms of, 'a guy attacks you like this, what do you do?' thus we are all answering accordingly.
I find that when specific scenarios such as the ones you posted above are introduced, the choice of responses change.
Daniel
Short of just apologizing and doing your best to get away, anything we do is probably going to get a reaction. The shot you do before the lock pretty much needs to be done quick. As for locks...they're not for everyone and they do take time to perfect, especially under pressure. For me, I dont think that we should necessarily look for the lock, but wait until it comes to us.
So, basically, you never really got much out of it? If thats the case, I can now understand why you have the views on it that you do. IMO, I think you'd have got much more out of it, if you took the time to understand it better, but again, to each his own.
Its not that I didnt learn. Its the content of what I learned wasnt applicable to my reality outside the gym. this is where the term grappling gets misconstrued... in chin na or ninjutsu its much different in its orientation and execution and overall purpose as opposed to something like bjj.... the term "grappling" is similar to the term "streets" ... its overgeneralized to the point of confusion.
I am more specific in terms... "
Yes, you're right. As its been pointed out, the term 'grappling' does get misunderstood more times than not, IMHO. I guess its safe to say that we each gained something different from our grappling instructors. Like I said, to each his own. I've found some great locks in Arnis, ones that I'd feel very comfortable using, and others that I'm not so comfortable with. I just feel that too often, we see, usually with MMA fighters, that if something doesn't work in the ring, it won't work at all. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to throw something out, because someone else can't make it work.
"Ok, I'm confused again....a finger in the eye, but you do this to someone who you didn't intend to serious injure? Let me ask you this....here are 2 scenarios. How would you deal with them. A finger in the eye does not necessarily mean an injury... it can mean discomfort. It is very easy to control the human head with fingers in the orbital fissures. Do that while grabbing a fistfiul of cheek muscle and a fistful of pectoral or latissimus or trapezius or tricep or bicep etc and you have complaince. By training to be successful at using ultimate force it affords you the ability to guage the amount in which you use. I understand time and place and have the tools and understanding of the anatomy to act accordingly and justly. "
Ok, I see your point.
"1) Guy pulls a knife on you while you're at the ATM. Demands your cash. Whether or not you give it to him is optional, but its apparent that he's going to cause you harm with the knife. Shut him down. "
Yup, sounds like something I'd do as well.
"2) Bum on the street stands in front of you and asks repeatedly for cash. He never touches you, but stands in your way, blocking your path. This happens all the time where I live and is simple to deal with. I put both hands up in neutral and tell them sorry. They never insist after the fact. Allot of times I notice them before they notice me and I hand them some change or a buck before they can ask. I have never been cornered by a bum accept when they jump on the car while attempting to wash the windows and then demand cash. I normally just let em work since those newspapers work pretty well.
Hey, I'm a fan of talking my way out first as well. Guess I was getting different vibes from others posts of yours.
"Personally, I think those can be dealt with differently, but if I was going to take a shot in the dark, I get the impression that you'd lay both guys out. Wrong ... seems you have been taking allot of shaots in the dark with my posts. [/quote]
If you assume everything we wont get anywhere."
Well, this is the net, and anytime one reads something rather than hears it, often things get misunderstood. However, I think its safe to say that I could find a few of your posts, that give the impression that you're all about kicking ***, and taking names. Of course, if you assume that certain things won't work, such as a block which is really a strike or gaining control of a weapon arm, then, no, we won't get anywhere.
I think, oddly enough, we're heading to the same place, just taking a different road to get there.
Agreed. Just for clarification, I dont want to give the impression of grappling with the blade, as in rolling on the ground, although, I do know people who train like that. Yes, first and foremost, if possible, get the hell out of there. If thats not an option, Im going to pick something up to use. A rock, dirt, a chair, whatever I can get my hands on. He raised the odds by pulling a blade, so I'm going to do the same.
Agreed. As I've said many times, I'm an adovcate of talking first.
I'm pretty sure there are a few posts out there that gave me that impression, but hey, everyone reads things differently.
I could probably point out a few. Now, again, this being the net, maybe its not clear as to whether or not those posts in question were dealing with armed or unarmed people. IMO, as I say, we should judge accordingly, our actions. 1) I'd be lying if I said I didn't. However, what I do always say, is that I like to assess the situation and respond accordingly. Not every situation we face is going to require poking an eye, or breaking a limb.
2) Ok.
3) Agreed.
BLACK LION
Black Belt
Lori.
Is this a scenario in which someone is accosting you or harrassing you. Is it a situation where you feel threatened?
Based on the info you gave, you stated the "hand on the shoulder" with elbows locked. Obvioulsy they are larger and stronger.
I am an advocate of always assuming a neutral position with palms forward and fingers below the chin. This does incorporate the natural fighting stance but without "posturing". The legs remain in the natural fighting stance while the arms and hands display neutrality.
I am going to subtract the escape factor and just get to the meat.
I would take the path of least resistance and by feining neutral and utilizing peripherals you should know where that is.
You can rotate outside and project through or you can rotate inside and project through. The nearest target is the groin. If you rotate inside and take the groin you can get under thier base and dump them by pulling out the leg from behind the knee cap with the hand thats not clutching the crotch. You would be simultaneously lifting up on the groin to take thier weight off thier feet while clutching the leg and pulling it into your hips. he falls on his back and head and it took no real strength to put him there...just gravity and physics and reaction to spinal reflex.
If you rotate outside the target is the same but you will end up behind them after the rotation and projection through them so dumping them will be a bit different but the concept remains the same.
Keeping your base is paramount and taking thiers away is equally important. Your base should consist of your inseam length. Mine is 32" so there is a 32" space between my feet in every movement while I am standing.
Rotation, of course is a circular motion wether is 20 degrees or 360 degrees. Rotation is paramount
Projection is putting yourself through them by replacing your body with where they were.
It may not make sense but its the best I can do without visual reference.
Is this a scenario in which someone is accosting you or harrassing you. Is it a situation where you feel threatened?
Based on the info you gave, you stated the "hand on the shoulder" with elbows locked. Obvioulsy they are larger and stronger.
I am an advocate of always assuming a neutral position with palms forward and fingers below the chin. This does incorporate the natural fighting stance but without "posturing". The legs remain in the natural fighting stance while the arms and hands display neutrality.
I am going to subtract the escape factor and just get to the meat.
I would take the path of least resistance and by feining neutral and utilizing peripherals you should know where that is.
You can rotate outside and project through or you can rotate inside and project through. The nearest target is the groin. If you rotate inside and take the groin you can get under thier base and dump them by pulling out the leg from behind the knee cap with the hand thats not clutching the crotch. You would be simultaneously lifting up on the groin to take thier weight off thier feet while clutching the leg and pulling it into your hips. he falls on his back and head and it took no real strength to put him there...just gravity and physics and reaction to spinal reflex.
If you rotate outside the target is the same but you will end up behind them after the rotation and projection through them so dumping them will be a bit different but the concept remains the same.
Keeping your base is paramount and taking thiers away is equally important. Your base should consist of your inseam length. Mine is 32" so there is a 32" space between my feet in every movement while I am standing.
Rotation, of course is a circular motion wether is 20 degrees or 360 degrees. Rotation is paramount
Projection is putting yourself through them by replacing your body with where they were.
It may not make sense but its the best I can do without visual reference.
BLACK LION
Black Belt
Agreed. Just for clarification, I dont want to give the impression of grappling with the blade, as in rolling on the ground, although, I do know people who train like that. Yes, first and foremost, if possible, get the hell out of there. If thats not an option, Im going to pick something up to use. A rock, dirt, a chair, whatever I can get my hands on. He raised the odds by pulling a blade, so I'm going to do the same.
Agreed. As I've said many times, I'm an adovcate of talking first.
I'm pretty sure there are a few posts out there that gave me that impression, but hey, everyone reads things differently.
1) I'd be lying if I said I didn't. However, what I do always say, is that I like to assess the situation and respond accordingly. Not every situation we face is going to require poking an eye, or breaking a limb.
2) Ok.
3) Agreed.
To clear up any misconception I categorize situations in 3 ways.
Or better I afford myself only 3 options.
Escape/evasion= next option when negotiation fails.
NEGOTIOATION= most situations fall under this option.
Ruthless Agression= when its the only option.
Read my post about the man slapping his girlfriend and attempting to steal her purse. I agressively negotiated my terms which led to him walking the other direction. Even though he was physically assaulting her I gave him 1 option only... he took it and then retracted and struck her again. I advanced further and instructed him to walk away or I would "put him down" ... he complied and I made sure he walked away and didnt look back. He deserved a beating but it was not right or just to do so despite his actions... thats integrity. I understand my capabilities so much that I pray that I dont need them...ever.
Pray for peace...prepare for war.
Lori,
This may have been asked already, but are these students or people outside of the facility?
Daniel
