another question

[Earl Weiss]

Jhoon Rhee graduated from the Chungdokwan under LEE Won Kuk. He is then attributed to training under GM NAM. Again, this shows that while Gen Choi may have "recruit"ed him, that may be as in used his political power to bring him to the organisation where he was trained by someone technical.



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Jhoon Rhee taught the Chang Hon forms for many years, leaving the CDK forms behind.
Who taught Jhoon Rhee the Chang Hon forms?

 

[Earl Weiss]

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Hang on, did he train them? I thought you said earlier that he trained GM Nam who then did the training? If so, we only have GM Nam's statement that it was the case - how do we know that GM Nam wasn't the real technical basis and Gen Choi was the public face, but that GM Nam is not just being typically asian in wanting to save face for someone he considers his senior?



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Gee, how long did it take for you to come up with that theory. I was also acqainted with Han Cha Kyo. Same story.

I am sure GM Nam could have come up withsome other face saving story if he needed to.

Now, think about it logicaly for a moment. You want to spread something like a martial art. Do you startwith a bunch of newbies, or do you Teach people with knowledge and experience to teach the teachers.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Gen Choi also used military and government resources (as you stated) to send instructors of his system abroad (resources that most Kwan leaders would not have had) so I agree outside of Korea, you most likely were doing General Choi's system.

However, inside Korea I'm not so sure this is the case (and I don't know if we'll ever have facts to argue this one properly).



Again though this isn't surprising. Assuming you're talking outside of Korea, most of the instructors internationally based would have been following Gen Choi/GM Nam's system and when they switched they would continue to teach what they knew (at least for a while until the Kukkiwon changes everyone to the same standard - this is still happening now). This isn't surprising, is it?

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As far as wht instructors inside Koerea were doing from the mid 1950's to the early 1970's it is clear that many rejected the name TKD as you note, so it wasn't until later, when it suited them that they then claimed what they were doing was TKD.

Will we ever have rthe facts. Well there have been some cracks with the KKW acknowledging Gneral Chois contributiosn as opposed t ignoring his existance, so as with many things, time will tell.

It's not surprising that many taught what they learned from General Choi's system. Only surprising that they often pretend that system was created 200 years ago or by some unknow source.

 

[Earl Weiss]

It depends what you mean by "founding the art"? I accepted (in that post a few back) that he named it and publicised it - but I have yet to hear evidence of his superior technical ability and therefore believe that most people should not consider him in their technical lineage.

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IMNSHO there is no text existing anywhere, for any art that has the technical detail of General Choi's 15 volume encyclopedia. His earlier works were also tecnicaly detailed conisdering the dates of their publication, but then again that is before you or the KKW were born.

 

[Earl Weiss]

(By the way this is all written in a happy tone - I enjoy/love a good debate and am not trying to hurt people, just to argue/debate with other people so I learn more and either change or solidify my opinions)

No problem. I am always happy to educate the unenlightened.

 

[dancingalone]

Jhoon Rhee taught the Chang Hon forms for many years, leaving the CDK forms behind.
Who taught Jhoon Rhee the Chang Hon forms?

I'm jumping in on this point primarily because Rhee is in my lineage. While General Choi was certainly Jhoon Rhee's superior when Rhee was a member of the ITF, I do think Jhoon Rhee's principal instructor should be considered Lee Won Kuk. After Rhee was recruited to join the ITF, General Choi or a delegate of his taught Rhee the Chang Hon forms. I still think his primary martial influences came directly from the Chung Do Kwan, and in the end, he left the ITF before the final refinements General Choi made to the forms and the standard to which he felt they should be performed.

As for the topic under discussion, I agree that General Choi was one of the main reasons for the existence of TKD and depending on your viewpoint he might very well be the #1 ambassador and creator of the art. Lee Won Kuk arguably should get a lot of the credit too as the CDK provided the bulk of instructors General Choi sent abroad as missionaries of tae kwon do.

 

[andyjeffries]

So which is it? KKW dscredit the book or accept what the author states? Or do they simply accept whjat they like and discredit what they don't?

Like anything, I'd imagine some facts are correct but some stuff is incorrect. When the book is presented as a type of "what really happened history" then some items will cause the book to lose credit even though some items are correct/accepted.

Read the book and a doxen or so more and see what hangs together. We can have semantic arguments all day long about "Founder" "Father" . In the USA we refer to George Washington as "The Father of the Country" . This does not mean no one else was involved. General Choi does not claim this and writes about it extensively in his memoirs.

The problem I have with considering Gen Choi to be Founder, Father, whatever is that I think a lot of other Korean Grandmasters would take exception to it as it was much more of a group effort. I'm sure they wouldn't deny his, admittedly, important part in it - but to give him most of the credit is surely incorrect.

 

[andyjeffries]

Your characterisation is so inaccurate even General Choi in his work (Published prior to KKW / WTF formation) explicitly disclaims it!

Which characterisation - that he was a "political figurehead of an international organisation" or that he didn't "create the techniques or defining the art"

He makes the analogy to inventing the wheel or discovering fire in that no one country or person can takesole credit.

OK, so maybe it wasn't him that seems to want to put him as the founder/father of Taekwondo, it's other people elevating him to that status?

What he did was what Kano and Funakoshi did before him. Establish a technical syllabus codifying technical parameters from among the existing variations.

But weren't Kano and Funakoshi experts in the previous art? Funakoshi trained under Ankō Asato and Kano studied Jiu-Jitsu and other arts.

From what I understand General Choi was not one of the seniors in Korean martial arts at the time - so it's a slightly different situation to Kano and Funakoshi...[/QUOTE]

Your characterisation is so inaccurate even General Choi in his work (Published prior to KKW / WTF formation) explicitly disclaims it!

Which characterisation - that he was a "political figurehead of an international organisation" or that he didn't "create the techniques or defining the art"

He makes the analogy to inventing the wheel or discovering fire in that no one country or person can takesole credit.

OK, so maybe it wasn't him that seems to want to put him as the founder/father of Taekwondo, it's other people elevating him to that status?

So, If you say this is not "Creating techniques or defining an art" tell us what you tink qualifies and how those such as Funakoshi or Kano would or would not qualify in this regard. Of course if your opinion is that they wul not qualify as creators or founders then of course your opinion would be the same as to Gneral Choi. Equaly inaccurate but still wrong.

I've explained the difference above - they both had genuine grades/training in the parent arts before founding their own. General Choi had an honourary grade in a Korean martial art and documented (albeit excellently) the curriculum of it.

They aren't the same situations at all.

 

[andyjeffries]

Jhoon Rhee taught the Chang Hon forms for many years, leaving the CDK forms behind.
Who taught Jhoon Rhee the Chang Hon forms?

Let me guess, GM Nam? As stated before he seems to credit GM Nam rather than General Choi. As you've stated Gen Choi wouldn't teach the enlisted men. This is consistent with my view.

 

[andyjeffries]

Gee, how long did it take for you to come up with that theory. I was also acqainted with Han Cha Kyo. Same story.

I am sure GM Nam could have come up withsome other face saving story if he needed to.

Quite possibly, but this is the easiest, most plausible.

Now, think about it logicaly for a moment. You want to spread something like a martial art. Do you startwith a bunch of newbies, or do you Teach people with knowledge and experience to teach the teachers.

Again though, did he teach GM Nam, GM Rhee or did he lead the organisation/promote the art and leave the teaching to the senior instructors in the organisation (those that actually graduated from the Chung Do Kwan already).

 

[andyjeffries]

IMNSHO there is no text existing anywhere, for any art that has the technical detail of General Choi's 15 volume encyclopedia. His earlier works were also tecnicaly detailed conisdering the dates of their publication, but then again that is before you or the KKW were born.

But the question comes back to - did he really create the content or did he codify existing works already being performed by his seniors in the martial arts (although they were junior in the governmental/military/organisational ranking)?

I'm sure the 15 volume set is excellent, I've seen his combined encyclopaedia and it was a great book. I'm obviously not willing to invest the money to purchase it though as I follow Kukkiwon standards.

 

[andyjeffries]

No problem. I am always happy to educate the unenlightened.

I've learnt that General Choi disclaims all credit for himself and considers that no one person can take sole credit. That seems to be more than most ITF students will concede.

 

[andyjeffries]

I agree that General Choi was one of the main reasons for the existence of TKD and depending on your viewpoint he might very well be the #1 ambassador and creator of the art. Lee Won Kuk arguably should get a lot of the credit too as the CDK provided the bulk of instructors General Choi sent abroad as missionaries of tae kwon do.

I'd agree with #1 ambassador, but I'd certainly give LEE Won Kuk more of the credit for the technical content of the art, while sharing a decent amount round to the leaders of the other kwans.

 

[Earl Weiss]

But the question comes back to - did he really create the content or did he codify existing works already being performed by his seniors in the martial arts (although they were junior in the governmental/military/organisational ranking)?

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Re Read post #20.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I'm jumping in on this point primarily because Rhee is in my lineage. While General Choi was certainly Jhoon Rhee's superior when Rhee was a member of the ITF, I do think Jhoon Rhee's principal instructor should be considered Lee Won Kuk. After Rhee was recruited to join the ITF, General Choi or a delegate of his taught Rhee the Chang Hon forms. I still think his primary martial influences came directly from the Chung Do Kwan, and in the end, he left the ITF before the final refinements General Choi made to the forms and the standard to which he felt they should be performed.
quote]

I am pretty sure this is wrong. I think GM Lee was gone before Jhoon Rhee trained at the CDK. GM Son would have been in charge and GM Nam as a Senior may have been one of the primary instructors.

As to who you would classify as ones "Instructor" that is a term that carries with it all sorts of meanings.

Please note that my comment was limited to who taught Jhoon Rhee the Chang Hon forms. It most definitely was not a CDK guy. It was in fact Gneral Choi during a vist with Jhoon Rhee in Texas.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Which characterisation - that he was a "political figurehead of an international organisation" or that he didn't "create the techniques or defining the art"



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You make an old misguided characterization seeking to demean General Choi's contribution. Those who say he should not be given credit because he did not "create" anything or that he claims to have created techniques.

Yet, General Choi himself addresses simultaneous development of martial arts by numerous people in numerous locals and that no one person or country can take credit for discovering or invennting it.

 

[Earl Weiss]

But weren't Kano and Funakoshi experts in the previous art? Funakoshi trained under Ankō Asato and Kano studied Jiu-Jitsu and other arts.

From what I understand General Choi was not one of the seniors in Korean martial arts at the time - so it's a slightly different situation to Kano and Funakoshi...

.[/quote]

Whether Kano or Funakoshi were experts is a matter of opinion. Whether General Choi was "One of the Seniors in Korean martial arts at the time" is a non issue. There were no Korean Martial arts at the time. Only Koreans doing Japanese arts. The Japanese had basicaly eradicated everything else during their occupation.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Let me guess, GM Nam? As stated before he seems to credit GM Nam rather than General Choi. As you've stated Gen Choi wouldn't teach the enlisted men. This is consistent with my view.

Another wrong guess.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Quite possibly, but this is the easiest, most plausible.



Again though, did he teach GM Nam, GM Rhee or did he lead the organisation/promote the art and leave the teaching to the senior instructors in the organisation (those that actually graduated from the Chung Do Kwan already).

No, it'd not easy or plausible. It's pure specualtion contradicted by first hand accounts.

GM Nam relates how he would spend time with Gneral Choi going over what General Choi wanted to teach the troops. Gnberal Choi sought input from many who actualy helped him develop the patterns. Among them GM Nam, Han Cha Kyo, Park Jong Soo, all Chung Do Kwan guys.

In fact when GM Park Jong Soo was In Chicago for GM Han's daughters wedding he called me to meet him for coffee between the ceremony and reception. Went to the Church to meet him, GM Nam (who I hadn't seen for a while) was among the group that went for coffee along with numerous other Korean gentlemen all wearing CDK pins on their lapels. Still a very strong brotherhood.

 

[dancingalone]

As to who you would classify as ones "Instructor" that is a term that carries with it all sorts of meanings.

Please note that my comment was limited to who taught Jhoon Rhee the Chang Hon forms. It most definitely was not a CDK guy. It was in fact Gneral Choi during a vist with Jhoon Rhee in Texas.

Absolutely! That's the point I am making that the Jhoon Rhee's martial foundation came from elsewhere than General Choi. I thought that was Lee Won Kuk, but I am content if you are or someone has an actual timeline handy.