An interesting realistic read about M.A.

[Gerry Seymour]

My belief is that people train for many different reasons. But as far as self-defense goes, a solid upper body block punch is far more effective than no training at all. McDojos can, I believe, handle that much. Doesn't make them great fighters; they don't typically have to be.

Some McDojos get that far. Some don't. There's one near me that I classify in that group. I've seen their demos, and even in demo mode they look inept. Their "flashy" stuff (what most break out for demos) looks like a yellow-belt karateka designed it. A yellow belt with bad stances, almost no effective movement/footwork, poor timing, and weak blocks...for a yellow belt.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

its hard to see how it can go wrong, you learn to punch and kick and block/ move, if your talented that all you need, if your not, it doesn't matter who your teacher is, you will be lucky to reach fairly poor

I agree with the first half, and disagree with the last half, Jobo. My primary instructor was awful when he started. His instructor (my first instructor in NGA) actually referred to him as "Frankenstein" because of his clunky movement. He developed into a very competent martial artist, an above-average technician (not among the best, by his own standards), and a good instructor.

 

[jobo]

Some McDojos get that far. Some don't. There's one near me that I classify in that group. I've seen their demos, and even in demo mode they look inept. Their "flashy" stuff (what most break out for demos) looks like a yellow-belt karateka designed it. A yellow belt with bad stances, almost no effective movement/footwork, poor timing, and weak blocks...for a yellow belt.

, but you have to look at value added, these mcdojo are a dumping ground for social inept un co ordinated un athletic types. They may have made a significant improvement just to get to ineffective

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I dont think. That's a fair comparison. Though I think learning to not get lost is a better idea. MARTIAL are only as effective as the martial artist is committed/ talented . If they don't work the fault is largely with the individual . It would be like taking golf lessons and then complaining you cant win the open

I think it would be more like taking golf lessons and complaining that you still can't play golf. Someone can be a decent golfer (which, to most golfers, would be someone who can break 90 from time to time) and have no hope of ever winning a tournament, much less the Open. To win the Open (whichever you prefer to refer to), one probably needs some inherent talent and physicality. To win a local tournament, one needs either that physicality and some time, or less physicality and a lot more time and good training. To be able to beat most people on the course, one needs the ability to keep the ball in bounds on the long shots, and get on the green reliably with the short shots. I think that's a fair analogy for what some are saying about what's most necessary in MA for defense against most people.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

, but you have to look at value added, these are mcdojo are dumping ground for social inept un co ordinated un athletic types. They may have made a significant improvement just to get to ineffective

Except that I'd lump the black belts and instructor into almost the same pile. I saw nothing that looked like skill, except from one actual yellow belt, who was either highly talented or had some TKD training (more likely, since he was kicking differently from everyone else).

My issue with the school is that they claim to be teaching effective skills for defensive use. And they aren't. Not a single student appears to have that (again, excepting that one yellow belt who appears to have other training). Yes, they probably aren't attracting the most talented people. But I've taught some very awkward students, and they are able to learn (eventually) all of our techniques, even some of the more technical ones. Will they ever be as good as someone with natural talent? Probably not, but they can get beyond sucking at it.

 

[Steve]

I dont think. That's a fair comparison. Though I think learning to not get lost is a better idea. MARTIAL are only as effective as the martial artist is committed/ talented . If they don't work the fault is largely with the individual . It would be like taking golf lessons and then complaining you cant win the open

No one thinks that the goal of martial arts is to win the UFC belt. The goal is to be able to better defend oneself.

If you play golf and take lessons, you will surely become a better golfer over time. How good will depend on your aptitude, fitness level, age and commitment.

if you train in any competitive style, you will surely learn to fight using those skills. How good will depend.

If you want a clue about what a style is really teaching you, look at the way that style is tested. If the test involves measurable, objective evaluation of your skill in context, such as through sparring and competition, that is what you are actually learning. Good and bad. That's what you're getting better at doing.

If the test involves kata, two step drills and light contact "sparring" then that is what you're learning and getting better at doing. Good and bad.

Some styles do all of that, and more power to them. Point is, you are learning what you are doing, and not learning what you are not doing. I know it seems obvious, but we hear otherwise around here all the time.

 

[Hanzou]

its hard to see how it can go wrong, you learn to punch and kick and block/ move, if your talented that all you need, if your not, it doesn't matter who your teacher is, you will be lucky to reach fairly poor

Oh it can go very, very wrong....

 

[Steve]

My belief is that people train for many different reasons. But as far as self-defense goes, a solid upper body block punch is far more effective than no training at all. McDojos can, I believe, handle that much. Doesn't make them great fighters; they don't typically have to be.

That's a questionable leap. It's like giving a person a cook book, an apron, some pots and pans, and asking them to learn to cook in a make believe kitchen. Put them in a real kitchen and they might be able to make a meal, even a simple one. But probably not.

And if you ask them to do it in a professional kitchen under pressure, on their own, with no mistakes the very first time, they will surely flounder. This is because they have never really learned the foundational skills. They have only visualized and gone through the motions.

A competitive martial artist can have gaps, but they are applying skills in context and under pressure. They are more like the home cook. Put a home cook in a professional kitchen and they will have a clear leg up on the pretend cook. How well they do will depend on how experienced they are cooking at home. ask them to do something they have never done, and they're in the same boat as the pretend cook, with one exception. They will be self aware. And if you ask them to cook something they're familiar with, they will do just fine.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's a questionable leap. It's like giving a person a cook book, an apron, some pots and pans, and asking them to learn to cook in a make believe kitchen. Put them in a real kitchen and they might be able to make a meal, even a simple one. But probably not.

And if you ask them to do it in a professional kitchen under pressure, on their own, with no mistakes the very first time, they will surely flounder. This is because they have never really learned the foundational skills. They have only visualized and gone through the motions.

A competitive martial artist can have gaps, but they are applying skills in context and under pressure. They are more like the home cook. Put a home cook in a professional kitchen and they will have a clear leg up on the pretend cook. How well they do will depend on how experienced they are cooking at home. ask them to do something they have never done, and they're in the same boat as the pretend cook, with one exception. They will be self aware. And if you ask them to cook something they're familiar with, they will do just fine.

I like that analogy, Steve. It's an excellent explanation of your point.

 

[drop bear]

I dont think. That's a fair comparison. Though I think learning to not get lost is a better idea. MARTIAL are only as effective as the martial artist is committed/ talented . If they don't work the fault is largely with the individual . It would be like taking golf lessons and then complaining you cant win the open

Or it would be like taking golf lessons from me getting whupped at every level and coming to the conclusion you are not a natural golfer.

Certainly not the conclusion I can't teach golf.

Must be your fault.

 

[jobo]

Oh it can go very, very wrong....

what's wrong with that?

 

[Hanzou]

what's wrong with that?

Sloppy technique, poor coordination, lackluster standards, poor stances, and a host of other things.

If my former karate teacher saw a black belt perform kata and sparring like that, he'd probably rip the belt off of them and demote them a few ranks.

Seriously, what's the difference between that above and this:

??

 

[Buka]

Oh it can go very, very wrong....

I frickn' love these guys.Seriously, more than Master Ken, even.

 

[jobo]

Sloppy technique, poor coordination, lackluster standards, poor stances, and a host of other things.

If my former karate teacher saw a black belt perform kata and sparring like that, he'd probably rip the belt off of them and demote them a few ranks.

Sloppy technique, poor coordination, lackluster standards, poor stances, and a host of other things.

If my former karate teacher saw a black belt perform kata and sparring like that, he'd probably rip the belt off of them and demote them a few ranks.

Seriously, what's the difference between that above and this:

??

they are clearly unco ordinated and un athletic. The question that needs answering is if they would be much better if they had better teaching, id say no, they still wouldnt be able to kick above knee height

 

[Hanzou]

they are clearly unco ordinated and un athletic. The question that needs answering is if they would be much better if they had better teaching, id say no, they still wouldnt be able to kick above knee height

I'd say yes.

The only way an entire group of people end up like that is poor teaching and low standards. Better quality instruction leads to better quality results.

Here's another example (and I think it's the same school);

Again, that's what happens when you get piss-poor instruction.

 

[Hanzou]

Here is how a kata demo should look (idealy);

Clearly not everyone can achieve the level of a pro-team, but that should be the standard.

 

[Paul_D]

Clearly not everyone can achieve the level of a pro-team, but that should be the standard.

The video is of the final between two three man teams. I don't think a level so high that only six people can achieve it is "standard". If this is just standard, what counts as exceptional?

 

[jobo]

I'd say yes.

The only way an entire group of people end up like that is poor teaching and low standards. Better quality instruction leads to better quality results.

Here's another example (and I think it's the same school);

Again, that's what happens when you get piss-poor instruction.

well that's not actually true, karate schools seem to attract people low on athleticism who want to learn to fight. If all they are attracting is uncoordinated dalwks. Then that is what is likely to happen. You cant polish a dog poo

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I frickn' love these guys.Seriously, more than Master Ken, even.

Yeah, I watch that from time to time, just to remind myself that - apparently - one can think one is getting serious training, while getting something that looks like part of a bad SNL skit.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

they are clearly unco ordinated and un athletic. The question that needs answering is if they would be much better if they had better teaching, id say no, they still wouldnt be able to kick above knee height

Kicking height isn't the issue, at all. Could they get better with good instruction? Without a doubt. I've seen too many examples of uncoordinated people becoming competent to accept that people are irretrievable simply because they start out badly.