An innocent person killed in a crossfire

[Transk53]

I don't understand why eight shots were fired at a target with hostage. The officer must have had a clean angle surely.

 

[ballen0351]

Since you asked when the last time I trained on active shooter was Ballen0351 I'll tell you. The last active shooter coarse I took as a Deputy was in 2007. Yes alot has changed since then and does from year to year and from coarse to coarse. I do however train every month as a DCT member along side the SORT team on entry tactics, hostage extraction, and riot control. No Sir I have never had to pull the triger. For that I am thankful. There were a few incidents where I did end up in some stand off situations only to be lucky enough that no shots were fired. Being from West Virginia it is not uncommon for any call to turn into a gun call, it seems everyone owns one here. Before you start ripping on corrections know this.

I didn't rip corrections I said you need to stick with what you know which isn't this. Just like I cant comment on cell extractions because I don't know the tactics.

COs take the same chances on road officers do everyday with alot less tools to work with. Everyone we deal with is a BAD GUY. And 90% of the time are armed when we are not. I won't go over the horror stories because I feel it is poor form to do so. No Officer regaurdless of their station should ever have to do so for the respect of another. Just know I work at one of the most violent USPs in the nation, USP Hazleton. Look it up it will speak for itself.

So Im suppose to show you respect yet you say "there are cowboys out there waiting for the chance to have a Leathal Weapon confrontation" Sounds pretty disrespectful to me. So maybe take your own advice.

As for being so defensive, well given the past history you've given I can't blame you for that. But as a SWAT officer and fire arms instrutor who does train in these situations you also know you are alot more skilled with your fire arms than the average officer, or at least should be. I simply stated a sad fact that comes with our line of work. There are officers who have not had the training and do go about buisness in a John Wayne manner.

What business? You have no idea what happened here other then a short news story. You don't know what was said what he heard, what happened leading up to this. Yet you now feel qualified not only to say the officer was wrong for shooting 8 time but to then call him a cowboy out looking for this to happen. You also have no idea what training this officer has had.

I am just as loyal to the brotherhood as any officer but I've also been around long enough to know that in every family there are idiots and a##holes.

Keep telling yourself that.

In the BOP we do practice threat assement and the use of force scale. And yes we do train in the double tap method. No disrespect was intentioned Sir. I only hope as a lowly Correctional Officer that is an acceptable response for someone of your caliber.

Then you training is substandard, outdated and will get someone hurt someday. If all you need is 2 rounds to end a fight why do we carry so many? If You must shoot then you keep shooting until the threat is over. If it takes 1 great, 2 awesome your double tap worked, if it take 10 fine keep shooting, If you need to reload and shoot more then go for it. You don't stop until the threat is over there is no set number.

 

[ballen0351]

I don't understand why eight shots were fired at a target with hostage. The officer must have had a clean angle surely.

8 were fired because the officer decided 6 wasn't enough and 9 was too many

 

[SavageMan]

I'm sure Miss Rebello's family would find that last comment all kinds of funny. I never said cell extractions, I said hostage extractions. Obviously you want to get into a pissing match. When again what I said in the first post was that I felt from my past training that in a hostage situation the amount of rounds used seemed excessive and going in solo was never advised. I also said that I didn't have all the info, but given the amount of rounds used with a human shield it was questionable. The fact that you can't seem to grasp the idea that there is such a thing as a bad decision made by a poor officer tells me your the type that would blindly stand up for an officer just because he wears a uniform rather than by his actions. And yet if it were a John Q Public with a conceal and carry something tells me views on how it went down would be a lot more open for mistakes by the shooter. Your the type that doesn't see corrections as being on the same team and far from being on the same level. As for the respect part you only keep proving my point. I was a Deputy first. And yes as a Deputy I did participate in no knock warrants and had my own pair of black pajamas. Doesn't make you special. I chose the BOP for the better pay check, not because I didn't know what I was doing. And I would put our SORT and DCT team up against any DCT, SORT and SWAT in the US. We are far from substandard, if that was the case we wouldn't be training other agencies and winning competitions every year. But hey we are but lowly corrections so what do we know. Besides the fact that you seem so hell bent on justifying a shooting by an officer that you seem to forget that there is no such thing as casualties of war when it comes to innocent civilians in police work. That kind of mind set is reserved for lawyers, politicians, and criminals not for law enforcement officers. I took an oath to serve and protect not take out when their in the way. So much for a friendly civil format. And I wonder why its been a year since I've been on here.

 

[ballen0351]

I'm sure Miss Rebello's family would find that last comment all kinds of funny.

It wasn't supposed to be funny it was said as fact. I had the same arm chair nonsense on my last shooting asking why I shot the guy 5 times. It was simple because on the 4th he still had a gun in his hand. So I shot again. I stopped after 5 because he dropped it.

I never said cell extractions, I said hostage extractions.

And?

Obviously you want to get into a pissing match.

the only one trying to get pissy is you. I have yet to say anything negative about you or your chosen profession. Your the one acting like the kid trying to get a seat at the adult table on Thanksgiving.

When again what I said in the first post was that I felt from my past training that in a hostage situation the amount of rounds used seemed excessive and going in solo was never advised.

Going in alone isn't advised by whom? If I roll up on a scene and I hear a woman inside screaming for her life Im not waiting for back up Im going to go help her. What if you have nobody else? My wife was a deputy and on midnight shift they had 2 deputies for the entire county. If you waited for backup it might take 45 min. I can think of many reason to go in alone.

I also said that I didn't have all the info, but given the amount of rounds used with a human shield it was questionable.

Correct you don't know all the facts. You don't know what he was told when he got there, what he heard when he got there, what was going on when he got there. I've showed up on a burglary and been told to come in the bad guy is gone and while I'm standing in the kitchen I head something in a back room guess who I found trying to hide in a closet....... Or like said before he pulls up and hears a woman screaming for her life. YOU might stay and wait for back up IM not I am going to enter.

The fact that you can't seem to grasp the idea that there is such a thing as a bad decision made by a poor officer tells me your the type that would blindly stand up for an officer just because he wears a uniform rather than by his actions.

You don't know MY type. I personally arrested cops for screwing up, I am a Defensive tactics and Firearms instructor and have testified to get 2 different officers fired for use of force issues. I just a few months ago locked up a good friend and fellow officer and have recommended he never be allowed to be a cop again due to PTSD issues he has from multiple deployments ti Iraq in the USMC. So MY type doesn't play favorites but MY type waits to crucify an officer until I have more facts then a small clip in a new paper. He may have screwed up but Ill wait to pass judgement

And yet if it were a John Q Public with a conceal and carry something tells me views on how it went down would be a lot more open for mistakes by the shooter.

I don't know find me a case where John Q is the suspect and Ill let you know.'[
quote]
Your the type that doesn't see corrections as being on the same team and far from being on the same level.[/quote]

I said nothing about corrections other then if your still teaching double tap your behind the times and will get someone hurt. I don't say that because I dislike correction but because its fact. Double tap triple tap all of its nonsense and not being taught anymore. You shoot to end the threat no more no less. There is a video from Ohio where they teach triple tap. You see 3 officers shoot a suspect the last shot the guys on the ground dead. Seems excessive but it wasn't ruled that way because they were trained to fire three shots no matter what. So any numerical limit on shots is poor training.

As for the respect part you only keep proving my point. I was a Deputy first. And yes as a Deputy I did participate in no knock warrants and had my own pair of black pajamas. Doesn't make you special.

I don't want to be special Again you seem to want to prove to me how tough you are and that we are on the same lvl. Well rest assured Im not on any level being a cop is a Job nothing more or less You want me to tell you corrections is equally though ok YOUR a super tough guy just as bad *** as the po po.

I chose the BOP for the better pay check, not because I didn't know what I was doing. And I would put our SORT and DCT team up against any DCT, SORT and SWAT in the US.

Wonderful Im sure you guys are swell

We are far from substandard, if that was the case we wouldn't be training other agencies and winning competitions every year.

I didn't say YOU were substandard I said your training is. We haven't been teaching Double tap in at least 10 years. We teach stop the threat no matter how many rounds it takes.

But hey we are but lowly corrections so what do we know. Besides the fact that you seem so hell bent on justifying a shooting by an officer that you seem to forget that there is no such thing as casualties of war when it comes to innocent civilians in police work. That kind of mind set is reserved for lawyers, politicians, and criminals not for law enforcement officers.

Again with the "I wanna be at the adult table" nonsense.

I took an oath to serve and protect not take out when their in the way.

Actually we have no duty to serve or protect anyone. Sometimes bad things happen. Its sad but had he not gone in there might have been even more dead people in that house or there might have been none. We will never know and since we don't know what really happened Ill hold judgement

So much for a friendly civil format. And I wonder why its been a year since I've been on here.

dude if anything I said was so offensive to you its no wonder you left the road.

 

[wimwag]

Now that's not true ballen. You were fighting with me just a few months ago.

 

[ballen0351]

Now that's not true ballen. You were fighting with me just a few months ago.

Gotta be more specific there is a lot up there which part isn't true. And you can't fight over the computer.

 

[wimwag]

Gotta be more specific there is a lot up there which part isn't true. And you can't fight over the computer.

And yet we all still do. Bickering is a form of personal conflict and needs more than one willing participant. There is no high road for you.

 

[ballen0351]

And yet we all still do. Bickering is a form of personal conflict and needs more than one willing participant. There is no high road for you.

ok

 

[SavageMan]

ballen I think you missed your true calling. The way you break down a post if I wouldn't know any better I would swear you were a defense attorney. I don't need to prove anything to anyone. All I did was put my view on a post and then you asked about my training so I told you. No you don't offend me as much as aggrivate me. As long as the retorts are coming from your side their justified in proving points, but if their coming from my side their childish? As for your comment on not being your duty to serve and protect the public, well if that is really your view and not just another jab at one of my posts I suggest maybe you need to take your own advice and look at a different line of work. With that line of thinking I'd say your at the point of burn out. If you think that being an officer is just about enforcing laws then you got into Police work for the wrong reason. I did so because I felt the need to serve my community and to give back. Nothing about it had anything to do with wanting to be a bad *** cop. I grew up in poor ethnic neighborhoods and had more than my fair share of those examples. My reasons for leaving Law Enforcement had to do with the fact that I never wanted to tell another parent that they would never see their child again, federal corrections was avalible and offered better pay. I work with the worst kind of criminals in the world everyday. They do the most inhumane things to eachother imaginable. I think of the victims on the outside and their families, and that is why I feel it is our responsiblity, our duty, to not just do the job but to serve and protect the communities we are a part of. The reason Law Enforcement is viewed the way it is by the general public is because of incidents like this, and because there are officers out there with jack boot mentalities that their only response to such tragedies are "**** happens. Your concern is invalid, respect my athority." Now go ahead and tear this down so everyone can see how a super cop can properly berate another officer.

 

[ballen0351]

ballen I think you missed your true calling. The way you break down a post if I wouldn't know any better I would swear you were a defense attorney. I don't need to prove anything to anyone. All I did was put my view on a post and then you asked about my training so I told you. No you don't offend me as much as aggrivate me. As long as the retorts are coming from your side their justified in proving points, but if their coming from my side their childish? As for your comment on not being your duty to serve and protect the public, well if that is really your view and not just another jab at one of my posts I suggest maybe you need to take your own advice and look at a different line of work. With that line of thinking I'd say your at the point of burn out. If you think that being an officer is just about enforcing laws then you got into Police work for the wrong reason. I did so because I felt the need to serve my community and to give back. Nothing about it had anything to do with wanting to be a bad *** cop. I grew up in poor ethnic neighborhoods and had more than my fair share of those examples. My reasons for leaving Law Enforcement had to do with the fact that I never wanted to tell another parent that they would never see their child again, federal corrections was avalible and offered better pay. I work with the worst kind of criminals in the world everyday. They do the most inhumane things to eachother imaginable. I think of the victims on the outside and their families, and that is why I feel it is our responsiblity, our duty, to not just do the job but to serve and protect the communities we are a part of. The reason Law Enforcement is viewed the way it is by the general public is because of incidents like this, and because there are officers out there with jack boot mentalities that their only response to such tragedies are "**** happens. Your concern is invalid, respect my athority." Now go ahead and tear this down so everyone can see how a super cop can properly berate another officer.

1st your not an officer your a guard and I'm not berating you and 2nd learn your case law. It's not just my view that we don't have a duty to protect its the law. I'll do anything I can to help anyone I can but it's not my duty. There are several court rulings on this topic.

 

[SavageMan]

1st It's funny according to my Federal ID it says Law Enforcement Officer. Guards walk the mall, I walk among killers, rapist, terrorists, gangbangers, and the list goes on. And I do it at a ratio of 100 to 1 with nothing more than OC and cuffs.And I don't need a badge or the black pajamas to make the population think I'm special when I do it. 2nd Spoken like a lawyer. Because as long as the courts say it moral obligation, or civic duty has no part in Law Enforcement. Guess your covered. This has went way off subject and I'm ashamed I was baited into it so I'm done with the petty banter.

 

[ballen0351]

1st It's funny according to my Federal ID it says Law Enforcement Officer. Guards walk the mall, I walk among killers, rapist, terrorists, gangbangers, and the list goes on. And I do it at a ratio of 100 to 1 with nothing more than OC and cuffs.And I don't need a badge or the black pajamas to make the population think I'm special when I do it. 2nd Spoken like a lawyer. Because as long as the courts say it moral obligation, or civic duty has no part in Law Enforcement. Guess your covered. This has went way off subject and I'm ashamed I was baited into it so I'm done with the petty banter.

Yes how dare I go by what the courts say. Screw the courts and case law right. Lol get over yourself and no your a guard no matter how hard you wish you were something else oh and my PJ'S are blue

And again check your case law moral obligations and legal obligations are different. I'll risk my life for anyone and I have because I want to and it's the right thing to do but I have no legal obligation to do so. YOU are responsible for your own safety

 

[wimwag]

Yes how dare I go by what the courts say. Screw the courts and case law right. Lol get over yourself and no your a guard no matter how hard you wish you were something else oh and my PJ'S are blue

And again check your case law moral obligations and legal obligations are different. I'll risk my life for anyone and I have because I want to and it's the right thing to do but I have no legal obligation to do so. YOU are responsible for your own safety

And only toddlers wear PJs during daylight...now kiss and make up children.

 

[ballen0351]

And only toddlers wear PJs during daylight...

Well that's not true at all. Been to a Walmart lately I've seen grown woman on PJ'S walking around

 

[wimwag]

Well that's not true at all. Been to a Walmart lately I've seen grown woman on PJ'S walking around

I went to one this morning and saw a schizo throwing DVDs on the floor and mumbling something about a dog.

 

[ballen0351]

I went to one this morning and saw a schizo throwing DVDs on the floor and mumbling something about a dog.

That's the main reason I go to Walmart to people watch

 

[wimwag]

That's the main reason I go to Walmart to people watch

I go because I can't afford quality merchandise

 

[Carol]

Well that's not true at all. Been to a Walmart lately I've seen grown woman on PJ'S walking around

Hey! It IS mud season and the water isn't on yet at the park. Trust me, the PJs were a way better option than filthy ranger clothes.

Now if you'll excuse me, I gotta buy some clean jeggings. I got standards to uphold ya know....


Sent from my tinfoil hat.

 

[Jason Norin]

It is tragic but, after reading some of the comments I think some of those people must live in an idyllic world where armchair quarterbacking is a valid profession.

Very well said..