An 8 year old black belt walks into your school.....

[Nomad]

I would do as my instructor does... tell the new students that it's great that they went so far in their previous school, but that you need to evaluate them, and that you likely have teaching differences, etc. to the other school. Ask them to wear a lower belt for now (probably not white since they're not a beginner... green maybe?), and let them know that they need to cover certain parts of the syllabus to truly earn the belt they're wearing. If they are knowledgeable in the techniques and have a good attitude, they are likely to be promoted fairly quickly.

This way, they don't feel like they're starting over from scratch, and you have options based on your observations of what they know and what they need to know to earn the rank.

 

[IcemanSK]

Does anyone else see the delicacy of this situation?
I am sure that it's not that big of a deal, but this could turn into a real cluster, couldn't it?

I think I see your point. But please, say more.

 

[IcemanSK]

I would do as my instructor does... tell the new students that it's great that they went so far in their previous school, but that you need to evaluate them, and that you likely have teaching differences, etc. to the other school. Ask them to wear a lower belt for now (probably not white since they're not a beginner... green maybe?), and let them know that they need to cover certain parts of the syllabus to truly earn the belt they're wearing. If they are knowledgeable in the techniques and have a good attitude, they are likely to be promoted fairly quickly.

This way, they don't feel like they're starting over from scratch, and you have options based on your observations of what they know and what they need to know to earn the rank.

I'm going to check to see if he has a poom belt cert. (under 15 years old, BB) from his instructor. If so, then he's earned that rank & he will keep it. He will still have an awful lot to learn in my program. He won't be testing anytime soon. I will say this again about this child, he has the respect & attitude of someone who has spent 3 years in a dojang. That is nice to see. Too many others I've seen don't.

 

[AceHBK]

How different would this conversation be if he was an adult??

If hedoesn't know all of his forms but is at a BB level for everything else, why not keep him at BB and have him work and know each of his forms?

Being that this is a 8yr old child, stripping him of what he has worked 3 hard years for seems a bit harsh. If he shows a willignness to learn your way why not let him keep his belt and make sure he picks up what u feel under your school rules he should know.

If this same situation rose about with a teenager or even an adult would the same rules apply or is it b/c he is 8 it is inconceivable that he is not capable of bieng that good?

After over 2 years of TKD I could never remember my forms for the life of me. I would learn one but after I got to my next belt level I would slowly forget it. Does it mean that I am not dedicated or not a true certified TKD'er with whatever belt I have now b/c I cant remember a form? Of course not. What it means is that I need to go back and work on it IF the dojang I attend says it is mandaotory to move FORWARD.

Leave him where he is and let him work on what u feel that he is lacking. Since he is 8 he has plenty of time to get things to where you feel it is satisfactory.

I think it is ticky tack to do that to a child or an adult. If their skill is deficient then move them to where you feel they fall in your school and move from there. If he needs to know previous forms then let that be the first thing that he learns. I would think that if the situation was reversed and he knew all his forms and was great with them but was terrible at applications and sparring, would you move him back to white belt?

I refuse to take something away from someone especially a child that has worked hard for even if I believe that the standards are different than mine. Leave them where they are and improve on what they have and go over what they missed.

I have never been big on the certification thing and I think to a large extent people put too much emphasis on it. Everyone says the kid is too young and what not but hell go to China and kids at 8 are probably pretty damn good and have been practicing before 5. You see and work with the kid, make your judgements on that rather than "he is 8..and cant remember forms or doesnt know them....bust him to white belt. Make him humble. Show him why your the better teacher." Too much ego.

If forms is the only issue, let him keep his black belt and make him work on all his forms and let him test then under you if that is really all he is lacking.

Some say he needs to be retrained if he has bad habits. Well what you may consider a bad habit maybe better for him. After 3 years of training we all have our own stlye of TKD and how we perform it. Isn't "perform it the best way it works for u and your body" a saying? Now of course make sure he knows the proper way but if it a certain way works for him why try and retrain? Why not work with it and add something or make slight adjustment instead of reprogram.

If he has EVERYTHING that you say he does for someone who has spent 3 years in a dojang then why move him to white belt?

 

[IcemanSK]

Well said, AceHBK.

Here's the latest on my young charge. I talked to his mom, today. She said she would talk w/ Master X's wife tomorrow. She feels she'll get the truth & get the real answer as to whether or not a KKW cert was filed. Mom & Dad paid a good deal of money for the cert., they want to get what they paid for. The good news is that she has video tape of his poom test. That will make it easier to "proof" his test. Mom also told me she spoke to other parents who's kids tested a year before her son: they had not received certs. either. Mom was feeling like she'd been mistreated & lied to. I'm honestly surprised she's so willing to have her son take TKD again.

I evaluted my young charge. I should have figured saying poomsae (rather than forms) would click with him. That said, he only knew Tae Geuk Il Chong, however. He recognized Koryo when I showed it to him.

Good news is, he's my student now. The mom seemed comforted by the fact that, Since I work for a non-profit Community Center, I don't make a dime teaching Taekwondo. I do it because I love the art & i love teaching kids.

 

[Ceicei]

Sounds like a good resolution. I'm sorry that your young charge isn't getting a certificate. Certificates often have sentimental value for those who earn their black belts.

What did you decide to do about his rank? Are you letting him wear his black belt or have him start over at white, or perhaps evaluate and put him at a rank somewhere in between?

- Ceicei

 

[exile]

Here's the latest on my young charge. I talked to his mom, today. She said she would talk w/ Master X's wife tomorrow. She feels she'll get the truth & get the real answer as to whether or not a KKW cert was filed. Mom & Dad paid a good deal of money for the cert., they want to get what they paid for. The good news is that she has video tape of his poom test. That will make it easier to "proof" his test. Mom also told me she spoke to other parents who's kids tested a year before her son: they had not received certs. either. Mom was feeling like she'd been mistreated & lied to. I'm honestly surprised she's so willing to have her son take TKD again.

Yes---sounds like a someone is running a real snake-oil operation. That boy's mother is right: they've both been mistreated, and it sounds like they're not the only ones there who've been.

I evaluted my young charge. I should have figured saying poomsae (rather than forms) would click with him. That said, he only knew Tae Geuk Il Chong, however. He recognized Koryo when I showed it to him.

Good news is, he's my student now. The mom seemed comforted by the fact that, Since I work for a non-profit Community Center, I don't make a dime teaching Taekwondo. I do it because I love the art & i love teaching kids.

In the end, Iceman, it probably was the best thing that could have happened for your student and his family. He's going to get really good training, and his dan belt, when he gets it up the line someday, will have real meaning. It's just a pity that he isn't going to have a real certificate when they thought he was getting KKW certification, but at least he's on track now.

 

[MBuzzy]

Another question - Iceman, I know that you teach at a community Center, but do you chare test fees?

For the other instructors out there....8 year old OR adult, if you were to have them starting at a lower rank, would you charge them a test fee again? More specifically, would you charge them a test fee for Black Belt when they made it, seeing as how those test fees can get rather expensive at some places....

That would be another big issue in my mind if I were the parent - would I have to repay for tests that I thought I had already paid for?

 

[exile]

What did you decide to do about his rank? Are you letting him wear his black belt or have him start over at white, or perhaps evaluate and put him at a rank somewhere in between?

- Ceicei

I was wondering that too. If he knows at least one Taegeuk and sort of knows Koryo, white belt seems a bit too junior.

 

[andyjeffries]

That would be another big issue in my mind if I were the parent - would I have to repay for tests that I thought I had already paid for?

That would be something for the instructor to explain - you paid for the tests and got nothing to show for it, basically you were scammed. My tests are real and if you want to sit them, then you'll earn a real grade with a real recognised certificate after it.

It also depends how much the instructor charges - if he then says his dan grading is only $1000 then it's all another veneer of ********. If it's say 50% above the Kukkiwon fee (included) then it sounds a lot more real.

 

[IcemanSK]

Another question - Iceman, I know that you teach at a community Center, but do you chare test fees?

For the other instructors out there....8 year old OR adult, if you were to have them starting at a lower rank, would you charge them a test fee again? More specifically, would you charge them a test fee for Black Belt when they made it, seeing as how those test fees can get rather expensive at some places....

That would be another big issue in my mind if I were the parent - would I have to repay for tests that I thought I had already paid for?

The Community Center serves a neighborhood that is very poor. We charge a nominal fee for 11 weeks sessions. Testing fees are strictly what my organization charges. They are quite reasonable & I don't tack on anything. As I said, the mom is going to talk to Master X's wife tonight & see if she can't get what they've paid for. I'm encouraging them to go that route first. (Heck, even small claims court, maybe). With the money they paid, Master X was more than compensated to file for a KKW cert. now.

I'll do everything I can to help him get what he tested for. In small claims court, the video of him testing for poom belt wouldn't look good for Master X.

I was scammed for my 2nd Dan (Took the test, got a phony ITF cert.) I don't want it too happen to anyone else if I can help it. The instructor who gave me the phony cert. used to say, "What does the Korean say on your belt? It says, 'this guy paid too much for this belt.'" He was obviously foreshadowing what would happen to me. Like I said, I don't want that to be true for this kid.

 

[exile]

The instructor who gave me the phony cert. used to say, "What does the Korean say on your belt? It says, 'this guy paid too much for this belt.'" He was obviously foreshadowing what would happen to me.

?? Boy, is that cynical! Gives you a good idea of what's lurking out there in (Mc)dojang-land...

If the boy's mother mentions, pointedly, in her chat with the owners that she has the film of the successful poom test, they may be able to connect the dots and decide to cooperate, without her actually having to tell them up-front that she'll see them in court if they don't do what they contracted to do. I have a feeling people like that are playing the percentages and it's not worth their while facing a lawsuit that they could very likely lose.

 

[matt.m]

Iceman, your heart is in the right place my man. Oh, a few pages worth of posts ago I was talking about the little 8 yr old girl from another school that was a red belt. Well we sat down and asked her how many tests she had. We, along with her uncle that is a brown belt in our org. figured her out to be a blue belt.

We showed her the number of belts and how they coorelated etc. She had been out of TKD for a year and doesn't remember any poomse at all. However, she is the most respectful and sincere little kid. It is ok in her eyes to be taught by a lower ranking adult belt because she doesn't understand etc.

I think a lot of the things about the characteristics you describe about the little boy with this girl are very similar.

Good for you for helping this kid.

 

[Kacey]

I'll do everything I can to help him get what he tested for. In small claims court, the video of him testing for poom belt wouldn't look good for Master X.

I was scammed for my 2nd Dan (Took the test, got a phony ITF cert.) I don't want it too happen to anyone else if I can help it. The instructor who gave me the phony cert. used to say, "What does the Korean say on your belt? It says, 'this guy paid too much for this belt.'" He was obviously foreshadowing what would happen to me. Like I said, I don't want that to be true for this kid.

These are the types of things that make you a good instructor, and Master X the operator of a McDojo. Kudos to you for doing what is right for the student, and not just what is easiest for your class.

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

He actually said to me, "It's been 3 months, I'm not sure I remember how to tie my belt."

:xtrmshock

IMHO, call me a hardass if you want, but this youngster is not prepared to wear or sport a black belt that's affiliated with any type of repudiable Taekwondo organization/federation/club, etc., etc.

 

[AceHBK]

The main thing is to not punish the kid for what he may lack. It is the past instructor's fault for his students short comings if he wasn't a good teacher.

You want to make sure that you don't crush his spirit or self confidence. Kids are fragile and so therefore handle it was ease.

 

[ajs1976]

True story. I had an 8 year old & his mom walk in last night for the 1st night of class. He is a black belt from another school in town. (Mom said that after 3 years, it got too expensive,there). I asked about a KKW certificate & mom said that it was "coming in December." My cynicism tells me that if a student leaves a school before getting his cert. his instructor won't send it in.

Have you checked the KKW website to see if he shows up?

There is a check for Poom/Dan link on the homepage. http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/index.jsp

 

[IcemanSK]

Have you checked the KKW website to see if he shows up?

There is a check for Poom/Dan link on the homepage. http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/index.jsp

Funny you should mention that. I wanted to give Master X the benefit of the doubt that he had it in process. I looked: no dice. I'll find out next week what Master X told the parents.

 

[IcemanSK]

The main thing is to not punish the kid for what he may lack. It is the past instructor's fault for his students short comings if he wasn't a good teacher.

You want to make sure that you don't crush his spirit or self confidence. Kids are fragile and so therefore handle it was ease.

This is in the front of my mind at every step with this kid. He came to my program: so he's not soured on TKD after the experience w/ Master X. I don't want him to feel like his black belt is worthless (& therefore making him worthless by wearing it) etc.

I talked w/ an instructor friend in my organization about it today. He said that in 12 years, he's had about 5-6 such situations. Only one has stayed with it. Some were kids, some adults. Most couldn't handle the change of expectations of their techniques needing being better. That's seems like a natural difficulty that would be hard to overcome. "It was good enough at the last school, why not here?" Heck, "different technique" is hard for most people.

Thanks for the reminder, Ace!

 

[jfarnsworth]

...Have any of you instructors/school owners come across this? What did you do? If you haven't yet, how would you handle it?

Boy, that's a tough call. If he can't do the requirements then he shouldn't proceed on to new material. I'd say let him keep his belt but he will have to learn all of the filler requirements to get him to his rank in your school.

I'm less than 3 weeks away from opening my own school and I hope this doesn't happen to me. I won't be teaching the TKD curriculum so it might be easier for me. Good luck. I'm going to keep checking back on this thread.