Americans woefully ignorant about religion, study says

Tez3 said:
The OP says "Americans woefully ignorant about religion, study says". As they use to say in school..discuss... and we were. Are Americans woefully ignorant or happily ignorant or even ignorant at all, we were discussing that. Should people be educated on other people's religions, we were discussing that. Post 27 was an opinion put forward in such a way that it reflected what the poster thought without rancour or rudeness, it was his opinion politely stated. Agree or disagree but don't troll.
Click to expand...


happily not ignorant (direct answer)
 
troll.jpg


Haha, yet another derailed thread.
 
So, people with no religion (like myself) seem to know more than those who do have. Do you think it's people cloistering themselves away in their various communities? "I know what's right so I don't have to look outside" and all that type of thinking? I know for myself I look on religions as separate works and treat them like regular books, even when I was in college for Literature I did a class called "The Bible as Literature" which was pretty cool. It was a study of the bible not as a religious work, but just as a work.
 
Omar B said:
So, people with no religion (like myself) seem to know more than those who do have. Do you think it's people cloistering themselves away in their various communities? "I know what's right so I don't have to look outside" and all that type of thinking? I know for myself I look on religions as separate works and treat them like regular books, even when I was in college for Literature I did a class called "The Bible as Literature" which was pretty cool. It was a study of the bible not as a religious work, but just as a work.
Click to expand...

I think it's probably a matter of feeling like the issue has been resolved. Religion is a means of answering questions about the world and beyond, and once you have a religion (and thus a set of answers), why would you seek further? Those for whom the questions remain unanswered are more likely to research further.
 
Maybe you are right. Frankly if you stop looking for answers then that's pretty lazy I think. Science doesn't stop at finding an answer. If we stopped at looking into gravity with Newton then we would never have discovered gravitons.

Oh well, I'm from a home of two religions, my father's side of the family being Hindu and my mother's side being Anglican so to me there was never a one answer in that case.
 
I think there are lots of reasons why people do not know much about religion, even their own.

As others mentioned, people are busy. They have lives, they have to go to work, etc. Not having intellectual curiosity about religion (their own or that of others) is not a sign of 'badness'.

Not knowing about one's own religion (note the number of Catholics who apparently did not know that we consider the consecrated host to be the literal body of Christ and the wine to be the literal blood of Christ) seems a shame to me. However, I can't say it does any major damage to society as a whole when people don't know facts about their own religion.

However, with regard to religion and society, that is, I think, more of an issue. We are confronted with issues involving religion on a daily basis, whether we are members of that religion or not. Our opinions as members of a functioning society matter, and have an impact. Ignorance seems to me to be irresponsible if one is going to weigh in with an opinion or vote at the polls on the basis of beliefs one has about a religion which are incorrect, biased, or simply non-existent.

Examples abound. JFK was the first US president who was Catholic; many were afraid of that based on erroneous information about how Catholics 'obey' the Pope on secular issues. Same was true of presidential candidate Mitt Romney (Mormon). Same for Joe Lieberman (Jewish). Same for President Obama (suspected incorrectly of being Muslim). I contend that if you want to dislike someone on account of their religion, fine. But if you don't even know what that religion professes, your hatred is based on ignorance. How one can state that they are proud of being ignorant, intend to remain that way, and yes, they do hate people based on that ignorance is beyond me.

We protest Muslim mosques (not just at Ground Zero) because we don't understand them (witness the boys who were arrested in NY for firing shotguns near a Mosque; they thought that Muslims drink blood). In the past, such was also true of Jews, Catholics, and Mormons (read their history as they were driven across the USA by violent protests and murdered as they went by good 'Christian' citizens sometime). Some people came to the USA to flee religious persecution as well; much of that being based on ignorance about what it was that those people actually believed.

It is anyone's right to not know anything about religion, their own or anyone's. It is likewise anyone's right to have opinions about others based upon their religion, even if their understanding of that religion is incomplete, incorrect, or absent entirely. We're all free to hate without limit.

However, a functioning society requires a degree of not just tolerance but understanding. If we, in our ignorance, decide tomorrow that religion X practices ritual human sacrifice on a daily basis, and we rise up and kill them all to prevent this atrocity, is it healthy for our society if in fact such atrocities never took place?

Ignorance I understand. Being proud of it? Makes my skin crawl. Hurts our society. My opinion.
 
Omar B said:
Maybe you are right. Frankly if you stop looking for answers then that's pretty lazy I think. Science doesn't stop at finding an answer. If we stopped at looking into gravity with Newton then we would never have discovered gravitons.

Oh well, I'm from a home of two religions, my father's side of the family being Hindu and my mother's side being Anglican so to me there was never a one answer in that case.
Click to expand...

I think it's fine to decide that you don't agree with a religion and don't wish to know any more about it. Nothing wrong with that in general. My objection is with those who decide that they dislike not the religion, but people based upon the religious beliefs of those people, and especially if they don't understand that religion.

We're talking about a variety of things here, from not wanting to learn about a particular religion because one does not have an interest in that religion, to know learning because one disagrees with that religion, to not learning because one does not believe in religion at all, to not learning, but still having an opinion on the goodness or badness of the members of a particular religion based on (intentionally) incorrect information.

A: I don't like Islam.
B: I disagree with Islam.
C: I don't know anything about Islam and I don't want to know.
D: I don't know anything about Islam and I don't want to know and I don't like Muslims.
E: I don't like Muslims.
F: I don't like Muslims, because Islam requires them to drink the blood of Christian babies, which I know is not true, but I choose to remain ignorant anyway.

That's what I'm trying to say. Replace 'Islam' and 'Muslims' above with any religion you like.
 
Bill Mattocks said:
I think it's fine to decide that you don't agree with a religion and don't wish to know any more about it. Nothing wrong with that in general. My objection is with those who decide that they dislike not the religion, but people based upon the religious beliefs of those people, and especially if they don't understand that religion.

We're talking about a variety of things here, from not wanting to learn about a particular religion because one does not have an interest in that religion, to know learning because one disagrees with that religion, to not learning because one does not believe in religion at all, to not learning, but still having an opinion on the goodness or badness of the members of a particular religion based on (intentionally) incorrect information.

A: I don't like Islam.
B: I disagree with Islam.
C: I don't know anything about Islam and I don't want to know.
D: I don't know anything about Islam and I don't want to know and I don't like Muslims.
E: I don't like Muslims.
F: I don't like Muslims, because Islam requires them to drink the blood of Christian babies, which I know is not true, but I choose to remain ignorant anyway.

That's what I'm trying to say. Replace 'Islam' and 'Muslims' above with any religion you like.
Click to expand...

it is opposite in practice. our military isn't over there to kill the religion but people. The religion is a bi-product. If one believes taliban ways of cutting off fingers and stoning people for adultry (based on their religion) then i suppose we are killing them and attempting to change them for both who they are and what they practice.

There is a anti-american sentiment among many muslims that can't be denied. i could post various videos of "down with america, kill america, the end to the heathen" type crap but why bother. It has come down to we either change them over there for the sake of diminishing a threat and gaining some middle east control or we kill them. This is of course, not all muslims. But a element within that can't be denied. some of that element comes with them to the u.s. Not all muslims in the u.s. are eager to assimiliate into u.s. culture, but rather expect the u.s. culture to work around them. This has been seen in propositions in school systems for separate curriculum, seperate rooms, praying rooms, different schedules. similiar problems in the work place with prayer or holiday or whatever the person does for religious practice. Right to the point of denying christmas trees. I know someone who is in social services who told me they are having a drastic increase in religious immigrants collecting services. questionable whether they want to work, or can work and get along.

Many are traditional and may take social services over sending the woman to work. Then they have eight kids. It is not just a failure of one culture to understand another. It is a failure of assimilation. This is of course not all of them, or anywhere near a majority. But faced with opposition and radical fundamentalists being the most obvious it brings on a reaction, combined with middle east war that is not favorable for getting along. At some point many of us, including myself, having seen enough of it nolonger care if muslims adapt or make it here, or even if they make it there. Between war and being told they object to the town christmas tree and seeing the anti american hate videos the patience is long exhausted. which is sad but almost unavoidable. There is only so much the public can take of a group of people. sad because, i am sure some muslims are very nice people, who are not the ones getting the attention. But since 911 there have been numerous attempted attacks. The last one the suv in newyork. It is a culture of suicide bombers, women, children, no matter. Not all, but these are the ones that stand out. womens rights do not exist in some of these cultures.

The media is constantly repeating the sentiments of much of this thread, get along. Dont allow bigotry. No ignorance allowed. which i questioned already. No one should be required to listen to anti-bigotry garbage while in a war with a population (and religion lets face it most of the middle east probably hates us) while having attempted attacks still done in their homeland by sects of the same group. Or then be told they have to explain why they cant have a separate room in the schools. Many of those here do not assimilate, and segregate themselves. or attempt to.
The other fear, fact based or not, is the religion and people will take over countrys by sheer numbers as they immigrant and have lots of kids. Possibly some truth to it i did read a article a while back on changes in immigration policy to limit it and from certain countrys, religons, from overwhelming one by sheer immigration. Think it was europe with the muslim concern and the immigration law changes. Also the one creating laws they couldnt' cover there face or something.

"don't be a bigot" is a huge simplification of a much larger problem. One of which once the war started i hold my cup to who wins. Not on the politically correctness. If i was a immigrant muslim i would be attempting to assimilate, being very careful to explain and show a pro american attitude. Unfortunatley many of them are not doing that. so the resulting anti-muslim sentiment, given the above is not only expected but i am not sure i can disagree with it. A rational person at war with people of a faith that says they want to kill them would be skeptical of those immigrating in country of the same faith from the same region of the world.

Now if you are religious i am sure you believe in the tower of babel. If you are a fundamentalist you must believe it word for word. So if you believe it one must believe there was a valid reason god separated the tribes and the languages. Put together they were too dangerous. If you dont believe it then consider it a example. There is a reason people dont always get along, and it isnt necessarily a bad thing. That is why we have wars. To solve those disagreements that just cant be agreed upon.
 
bribrius said:
it is opposite in practice. our military isn't over there to kill the religion but people. The religion is a bi-product. If one believes taliban ways of cutting off fingers and stoning people for adultry (based on their religion) then i suppose we are killing them and attempting to change them for both who they are and what they practice.

There is a anti-american sentiment among many muslims that can't be denied. i could post various videos of "down with america, kill america, the end to the heathen" type crap but why bother. It has come down to we either change them over there for the sake of diminishing a threat and gaining some middle east control or we kill them. This is of course, not all muslims. But a element within that can't be denied. some of that element comes with them to the u.s. Not all muslims in the u.s. are eager to assimiliate into u.s. culture, but rather expect the u.s. culture to work around them. This has been seen in propositions in school systems for separate curriculum, seperate rooms, praying rooms, different schedules. similiar problems in the work place with prayer or holiday or whatever the person does for religious practice. Right to the point of denying christmas trees. I know someone who is in social services who told me they are having a drastic increase in religious immigrants collecting services. questionable whether they want to work, or can work and get along.

Many are traditional and may take social services over sending the woman to work. Then they have eight kids. It is not just a failure of one culture to understand another. It is a failure of assimilation. This is of course not all of them, or anywhere near a majority. But faced with opposition and radical fundamentalists being the most obvious it brings on a reaction, combined with middle east war that is not favorable for getting along. At some point many of us, including myself, having seen enough of it nolonger care if muslims adapt or make it here, or even if they make it there. Between war and being told they object to the town christmas tree and seeing the anti american hate videos the patience is long exhausted. which is sad but almost unavoidable. There is only so much the public can take of a group of people. sad because, i am sure some muslims are very nice people, who are not the ones getting the attention. But since 911 there have been numerous attempted attacks. The last one the suv in newyork. It is a culture of suicide bombers, women, children, no matter. Not all, but these are the ones that stand out. womens rights do not exist in some of these cultures.

The media is constantly repeating the sentiments of much of this thread, get along. Dont allow bigotry. No ignorance allowed. which i questioned already. No one should be required to listen to anti-bigotry garbage while in a war with a population (and religion lets face it most of the middle east probably hates us) while having attempted attacks still done in their homeland by sects of the same group. Or then be told they have to explain why they cant have a separate room in the schools. Many of those here do not assimilate, and segregate themselves. or attempt to.
The other fear, fact based or not, is the religion and people will take over countrys by sheer numbers as they immigrant and have lots of kids. Possibly some truth to it i did read a article a while back on changes in immigration policy to limit it and from certain countrys, religons, from overwhelming one by sheer immigration. Think it was europe with the muslim concern and the immigration law changes. Also the one creating laws they couldnt' cover there face or something.

"don't be a bigot" is a huge simplification of a much larger problem. One of which once the war started i hold my cup to who wins. Not on the politically correctness. If i was a immigrant muslim i would be attempting to assimilate, being very careful to explain and show a pro american attitude. Unfortunatley many of them are not doing that. so the resulting anti-muslim sentiment, given the above is not only expected but i am not sure i can disagree with it. A rational person at war with people of a faith that says they want to kill them would be skeptical of those immigrating in country of the same faith from the same region of the world.

Now if you are religious i am sure you believe in the tower of babel. If you are a fundamentalist you must believe it word for word. So if you believe it one must believe there was a valid reason god separated the tribes and the languages. Put together they were too dangerous. If you dont believe it then consider it a example. There is a reason people dont always get along, and it isnt necessarily a bad thing. That is why we have wars. To solve those disagreements that just cant be agreed upon.
Click to expand...


What the hell are you on about man?
 
bribrius said:
it is opposite in practice. our military isn't over there to kill the religion but people. The religion is a bi-product. If one believes taliban ways of cutting off fingers and stoning people for adultry (based on their religion) then i suppose we are killing them and attempting to change them for both who they are and what they practice.

There is a anti-american sentiment among many muslims that can't be denied. i could post various videos of "down with america, kill america, the end to the heathen" type crap but why bother. It has come down to we either change them over there for the sake of diminishing a threat and gaining some middle east control or we kill them. This is of course, not all muslims. But a element within that can't be denied. some of that element comes with them to the u.s. Not all muslims in the u.s. are eager to assimiliate into u.s. culture, but rather expect the u.s. culture to work around them. This has been seen in propositions in school systems for separate curriculum, seperate rooms, praying rooms, different schedules. similiar problems in the work place with prayer or holiday or whatever the person does for religious practice. Right to the point of denying christmas trees. I know someone who is in social services who told me they are having a drastic increase in religious immigrants collecting services. questionable whether they want to work, or can work and get along.

Many are traditional and may take social services over sending the woman to work. Then they have eight kids. It is not just a failure of one culture to understand another. It is a failure of assimilation. This is of course not all of them, or anywhere near a majority. But faced with opposition and radical fundamentalists being the most obvious it brings on a reaction, combined with middle east war that is not favorable for getting along. At some point many of us, including myself, having seen enough of it nolonger care if muslims adapt or make it here, or even if they make it there. Between war and being told they object to the town christmas tree and seeing the anti american hate videos the patience is long exhausted. which is sad but almost unavoidable. There is only so much the public can take of a group of people. sad because, i am sure some muslims are very nice people, who are not the ones getting the attention. But since 911 there have been numerous attempted attacks. The last one the suv in newyork. It is a culture of suicide bombers, women, children, no matter. Not all, but these are the ones that stand out. womens rights do not exist in some of these cultures.

The media is constantly repeating the sentiments of much of this thread, get along. Dont allow bigotry. No ignorance allowed. which i questioned already. No one should be required to listen to anti-bigotry garbage while in a war with a population (and religion lets face it most of the middle east probably hates us) while having attempted attacks still done in their homeland by sects of the same group. Or then be told they have to explain why they cant have a separate room in the schools. Many of those here do not assimilate, and segregate themselves. or attempt to.
The other fear, fact based or not, is the religion and people will take over countrys by sheer numbers as they immigrant and have lots of kids. Possibly some truth to it i did read a article a while back on changes in immigration policy to limit it and from certain countrys, religons, from overwhelming one by sheer immigration. Think it was europe with the muslim concern and the immigration law changes. Also the one creating laws they couldnt' cover there face or something.

"don't be a bigot" is a huge simplification of a much larger problem. One of which once the war started i hold my cup to who wins. Not on the politically correctness. If i was a immigrant muslim i would be attempting to assimilate, being very careful to explain and show a pro american attitude. Unfortunatley many of them are not doing that. so the resulting anti-muslim sentiment, given the above is not only expected but i am not sure i can disagree with it. A rational person at war with people of a faith that says they want to kill them would be skeptical of those immigrating in country of the same faith from the same region of the world.

Now if you are religious i am sure you believe in the tower of babel. If you are a fundamentalist you must believe it word for word. So if you believe it one must believe there was a valid reason god separated the tribes and the languages. Put together they were too dangerous. If you dont believe it then consider it a example. There is a reason people dont always get along, and it isnt necessarily a bad thing. That is why we have wars. To solve those disagreements that just cant be agreed upon.
Click to expand...


I appreciate your post and the way you explain your thoughts on this, but I can't agree with a lot of it. Most of the hatred of Muslims isn't because of any real valid reasoning. Most of it is hatred from ignorance, egged on by people who have a motive for increasing the fear and hatred. Yeah, its true there are Muslims who come to this country and do not assimilate very well. There are also many Christian groups who expect special treatment and wouldn't really be considered normal everyday citizens. While the I don't have a problem with people having any specific opinion, even if it is based upon erronious beliefs or just pure bigotry, I do have a problem when actions are taken on those mistaken beliefs...such as the example of the teens firing off shotguns near a mosque because they believed Muslims drank blood. It comes back to personal responsibility. A person has a right to believe any damn thing they want. They do NOT have a right to to take actions on those personal beliefs without consequence. If a person believes all Muslims are evil, fine. I think its ignorant, but hey, whatever. Start shouting it to all the world or taking action upon that mistaken belief then that same person gets to reap the consequences, from being called an idiot for the former to jail time for the latter.
 
WC_lun said:
I appreciate your post and the way you explain your thoughts on this, but I can't agree with a lot of it. Most of the hatred of Muslims isn't because of any real valid reasoning. Most of it is hatred from ignorance, egged on by people who have a motive for increasing the fear and hatred. Yeah, its true there are Muslims who come to this country and do not assimilate very well. There are also many Christian groups who expect special treatment and wouldn't really be considered normal everyday citizens. While the I don't have a problem with people having any specific opinion, even if it is based upon erronious beliefs or just pure bigotry, I do have a problem when actions are taken on those mistaken beliefs...such as the example of the teens firing off shotguns near a mosque because they believed Muslims drank blood. It comes back to personal responsibility. A person has a right to believe any damn thing they want. They do NOT have a right to to take actions on those personal beliefs without consequence. If a person believes all Muslims are evil, fine. I think its ignorant, but hey, whatever. Start shouting it to all the world or taking action upon that mistaken belief then that same person gets to reap the consequences, from being called an idiot for the former to jail time for the latter.
Click to expand...


I'm glad you actually understand what he said because I couldn't piece together the sentences to actually make out what was meant. I did read and understand the last part about wars not being a bad thing and being a good thing to sort out arguments. Now I'm sorry what that's a red rag to a bull to me I'm afraid.

I went away, counted to ten, made a cuppa and still I find myself angry that anyone could imagine war is a good thing. The suffering of innocent people, the destruction, the death and injury caused by wars is never good, there are no good consquences of wars even when against someone like Hitler and the Nazis. Wars should be avoided at all costs, the reality is they aren't but that doesn't make it a good thing. No war is good, ever.
 
Tez3 said:
I'm glad you actually understand what he said because I couldn't piece together the sentences to actually make out what was meant. I did read and understand the last part about wars not being a bad thing and being a good thing to sort out arguments. Now I'm sorry what that's a red rag to a bull to me I'm afraid.

I went away, counted to ten, made a cuppa and still I find myself angry that anyone could imagine war is a good thing. The suffering of innocent people, the destruction, the death and injury caused by wars is never good, there are no good consquences of wars even when against someone like Hitler and the Nazis. Wars should be avoided at all costs, the reality is they aren't but that doesn't make it a good thing. No war is good, ever.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I have a hard time slogging through the bad grammar and half formed ideas too.
 
Omar B said:
Yeah, I have a hard time slogging through the bad grammar and half formed ideas too.
Click to expand...


For reasons I'm not going into yet again, it's on other bits of MT, I'm not in the mood to be particularly sympathetic towards anyone expressing the idea that war is good.
The bad grammar made the points made seem nonsense, they may well make sense but not in the manner they were expressed in. it stops discussion stone dead when we can't understand the points.
 
bribrius said:
it is opposite in practice. our military isn't over there to kill the religion but people. The religion is a bi-product. If one believes taliban ways of cutting off fingers and stoning people for adultry (based on their religion) then i suppose we are killing them and attempting to change them for both who they are and what they practice.

There is a anti-american sentiment among many muslims that can't be denied. i could post various videos of "down with america, kill america, the end to the heathen" type crap but why bother. It has come down to we either change them over there for the sake of diminishing a threat and gaining some middle east control or we kill them. This is of course, not all muslims. But a element within that can't be denied. some of that element comes with them to the u.s. Not all muslims in the u.s. are eager to assimiliate into u.s. culture, but rather expect the u.s. culture to work around them. This has been seen in propositions in school systems for separate curriculum, seperate rooms, praying rooms, different schedules. similiar problems in the work place with prayer or holiday or whatever the person does for religious practice. Right to the point of denying christmas trees. I know someone who is in social services who told me they are having a drastic increase in religious immigrants collecting services. questionable whether they want to work, or can work and get along.

Many are traditional and may take social services over sending the woman to work. Then they have eight kids. It is not just a failure of one culture to understand another. It is a failure of assimilation. This is of course not all of them, or anywhere near a majority. But faced with opposition and radical fundamentalists being the most obvious it brings on a reaction, combined with middle east war that is not favorable for getting along. At some point many of us, including myself, having seen enough of it nolonger care if muslims adapt or make it here, or even if they make it there. Between war and being told they object to the town christmas tree and seeing the anti american hate videos the patience is long exhausted. which is sad but almost unavoidable. There is only so much the public can take of a group of people. sad because, i am sure some muslims are very nice people, who are not the ones getting the attention. But since 911 there have been numerous attempted attacks. The last one the suv in newyork. It is a culture of suicide bombers, women, children, no matter. Not all, but these are the ones that stand out. womens rights do not exist in some of these cultures.

The media is constantly repeating the sentiments of much of this thread, get along. Dont allow bigotry. No ignorance allowed. which i questioned already. No one should be required to listen to anti-bigotry garbage while in a war with a population (and religion lets face it most of the middle east probably hates us) while having attempted attacks still done in their homeland by sects of the same group. Or then be told they have to explain why they cant have a separate room in the schools. Many of those here do not assimilate, and segregate themselves. or attempt to.
The other fear, fact based or not, is the religion and people will take over countrys by sheer numbers as they immigrant and have lots of kids. Possibly some truth to it i did read a article a while back on changes in immigration policy to limit it and from certain countrys, religons, from overwhelming one by sheer immigration. Think it was europe with the muslim concern and the immigration law changes. Also the one creating laws they couldnt' cover there face or something.

"don't be a bigot" is a huge simplification of a much larger problem. One of which once the war started i hold my cup to who wins. Not on the politically correctness. If i was a immigrant muslim i would be attempting to assimilate, being very careful to explain and show a pro american attitude. Unfortunatley many of them are not doing that. so the resulting anti-muslim sentiment, given the above is not only expected but i am not sure i can disagree with it. A rational person at war with people of a faith that says they want to kill them would be skeptical of those immigrating in country of the same faith from the same region of the world.

Now if you are religious i am sure you believe in the tower of babel. If you are a fundamentalist you must believe it word for word. So if you believe it one must believe there was a valid reason god separated the tribes and the languages. Put together they were too dangerous. If you dont believe it then consider it a example. There is a reason people dont always get along, and it isnt necessarily a bad thing. That is why we have wars. To solve those disagreements that just cant be agreed upon.
Click to expand...
lego_facepalm_by_c0rnh0li047_thumb.png
 
Tez3 said:
I'm glad you actually understand what he said because I couldn't piece together the sentences to actually make out what was meant. I did read and understand the last part about wars not being a bad thing and being a good thing to sort out arguments. Now I'm sorry what that's a red rag to a bull to me I'm afraid.

I went away, counted to ten, made a cuppa and still I find myself angry that anyone could imagine war is a good thing. The suffering of innocent people, the destruction, the death and injury caused by wars is never good, there are no good consquences of wars even when against someone like Hitler and the Nazis. Wars should be avoided at all costs, the reality is they aren't but that doesn't make it a good thing. No war is good, ever.
Click to expand...

may i suggest a book "the father of us all"


http://www.amazon.com/Father-Us-All-History-Ancient/dp/1608191656
 
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