American Karate...

[RyuShiKan]

uuuuuhhhh......I think you will find at least one person on this list was a student at that dojo.......and earned rather high rank from there.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by budopunjabi
i agree the art is okinawan..that is my main point! Tang soo do is heavily based around Shotokan, a form of karate that was completely diluted compared to the original art constructed by Miyagi and Miyazato sensei.

I wasn’t aware that Miyagi or Miyazato ever studied Shotokan……..

Originally posted by budopunjabi
The applications of Karate, found in Okinawan Jundo Kan are definetly deeper and have more potency that those found in shotokan.

I don’t think it is the style per say but the people practicing.

Originally posted by budopunjabi
You may as well not call Shotokan and Okinawan Gojy ryu karate as at advanced levels they are very different.

Actually I disagree.
I think at advanced levels many of the same concepts are the same.
We do many of the same kata as Shotokan (Naihanchi, Pinans, etc) and I know people and have also had students from Goju and other styles that have compared and contrasted technique with me. By and large they are not that different.

 

[budopunjabi]

of course they didnt! Miyazato and Miyagi sensei were founders of Goju ryu. Do you even know where shotokan arose from? Why millions study shotokan but can hardly apply it?

I disagree. I learn Goju ryu from a 7th generation descendent of Miyazato sensei and find the arts very very different. The stances, the bunkai, needless to say I never found a true jundo kan school anywhere except in Okinawa.

In Budo

 

[budopunjabi]

on another note, how would you compare karate with other forms of combat, and self defence. Im interested in boxing?

Anyone got any ideas.

In Budo

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by budopunjabi
of course they didnt! Miyazato and Miyagi sensei were founders of Goju ryu. Do you even know where shotokan arose from? Why millions study shotokan but can hardly apply it?

Yes, I know who they are.
And judging from the few posts you have made on the subject of Okinawa/Karate/Okinawan History I would say my knowledge on the subject would bury yours.

Originally posted by budopunjabi
Tang soo do is heavily based around Shotokan, a form of karate that was completely diluted compared to the original art constructed by Miyagi and Miyazato sensei.

This sounds like you were trying to say there was some connection between Shotokan-Miaygi-Miyazato.

Originally posted by budopunjabi
I disagree. I learn Goju ryu from a 7th generation descendent of Miyazato sensei and find the arts very very different. The stances, the bunkai, needless to say I never found a true jundo kan school anywhere except in Okinawa.

I see.
Sorry but you sound like a “newbee” to Karate to me.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by budopunjabi
on another note, how would you compare karate with other forms of combat, and self defence. Im interested in boxing?

Anyone got any ideas.

In Budo

Why don't you start a new thread on it.........this thread already has a topic.

 

[budopunjabi]

new bee- nope.

I am interested in your comments, not wish to cause tension!

In Budo

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by budopunjabi
new bee- nope.

somehow I doubt it…………

Originally posted by budopunjabi
I am interested in your comments, not wish to cause tension!
In Budo

Then you might want to get your facts straight first

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by budopunjabi
I disagree. I learn Goju ryu from a 7th generation descendent of Miyazato sensei and find the arts very very different.

7th generation????
Seems kind of far removed considering you said on another thread and I quote:

Originally posted by budopunjabi
I have trained with them.

I have trained extensively in Okinawa.

if you trained in Okinawa like you said you would have trained with 1st or 2nd maybe 3rd generation Goju people……….not 7th.

 

[SRyuFighter]

Some things just arent adding up here.

 

[Ty K. Doe]

By IMAA
I have wondered myself for a long timewhat American Karate or American TKD has actually meant.

American Tae Kwon Do was coined by Grandmaster Jhoon Rhee, who was accredited with bringing Tae Kwon Do to America. It is like ITF tkd because the founder General Choi Hong Hi influenced Jhoon Rhee when they met one another in Texas back in the 60's. That's when the 'Texas Blood and Guts' national karate tournaments began. Along with Ed Parker's famous tournaments. It was during that time with competitors like Skipper Mullins, Allan Steen, J. Pat Burlson, Fred Wren, Chuck Norris, and many other greats began calling it American Karate, due to the tournament scene.

 

[Infight]

What i noticed is that American Karate trains nothing!. What can i say, you train, kick, punching, newaza, naguewaza, and everythin, so, you train nothing, there is no time to pratice all, and youll ever spar with guys that try to know all too, poor AKarate!
Shotokan Karate is based on the power of each technique, you dunno land many punchs and kicks on opponent, you just get your distance and throw a very powerfull punch. The weak point of it is that there are many katas and they spar just a litlle, thats too bad for a functional art, but really delightfull to train.
I think the more devastating kind of Karate is the Kyokyshin, a competitive, very similar to Kickboxing, with the famous roundhouse kick of thai boxing, veery usefull, but you can pratice shotokan too ( this style is very famous in US ), but try to spar a little more than in class.

 

[Angus]

That's a pathetically sweeping generalization, Infight. Just because something isn't competative in the circles you're in (MMA) doesn't mean it's not effective. Although I'm not big on kata myself (simply because it's my weakest point), it doesn't mean it's not insanely effective if taught correctly: it's in the application. Obviously nobody is going to do a kata in the middle of the fight; that's not what they're meant for. You've made many generalizations like this in many of your other posts that are very indicative of the MMA mindset, and given that you study BJJ it's not surprising, because they've really helped spread it. There's so many things and so many places that are called American Karate that there's no possible way you can judge every single school and every single person the same way, because it's 100% BS. Yeah, there are bad school, but there are also fantastic ones as well, with students who compete in MMA (like that, eh?). I've seen plenty of bad BJJ schools as well. Hell, there's one around here. Nothing is perfect; don't be so quick to judge something that you obviously don't have a lot of first hand experience with.

By the way, Kyokushin has kata as well.

 

[SRyuFighter]

Originally posted by Angus
That's a pathetically sweeping generalization, Infight. Just because something isn't competative in the circles you're in (MMA) doesn't mean it's not effective. Although I'm not big on kata myself (simply because it's my weakest point), it doesn't mean it's not insanely effective if taught correctly: it's in the application. Obviously nobody is going to do a kata in the middle of the fight; that's not what they're meant for. You've made many generalizations like this in many of your other posts that are very indicative of the MMA mindset, and given that you study BJJ it's not surprising, because they've really helped spread it. There's so many things and so many places that are called American Karate that there's no possible way you can judge every single school and every single person the same way, because it's 100% BS. Yeah, there are bad school, but there are also fantastic ones as well, with students who compete in MMA (like that, eh?). I've seen plenty of bad BJJ schools as well. Hell, there's one around here. Nothing is perfect; don't be so quick to judge something that you obviously don't have a lot of first hand experience with.

By the way, Kyokushin has kata as well.

Well said Angus!

 

[GojuBujin]

American??? Karate???????

That says enough I think.

Michael C. Byrd
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

 

[Infight]

Hey angus you missed the point! I said it shouldnt be effective cause:
1 - Its not Karate anymore, trying to put many things that were not in Karate.
2 - Its not a matter of how good a school is, or isnt, what im saying is that when you try to do too many things you finish perfecting any of them, so some art that tries to do all of martial arts, you just cant be good in any of them, its logic not an opinion.
3 - Its not an MMA mindset, i like many martial arts, Aikido, Wrestling, Boxe, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Karate.., and all of them knows where it wants to get, there is no Kickboxing training with some class of groundwork, you see?
4 - Im not judging schools, or teachers, but the art, of course its just my opinion, and anyone who wants to pratice any art, go ahead and do it, in worst case itll help your health. I assume that i hate these " we pratice all " martial art, and worse, they claim to be effective, that sucks man! Anyone can create any art you want, even here in Brazil, many guys keep trying to create many different arts to try to get new students, its market, but it sucks, youre offering something illusional, these guys should be prosecuted. There are many Karate forms everywhere but almost all follow the same principle, but what you told me about this American Karate, haha, cmon, in 5 years training everyday youll know just a little of what some ground fighter knows, or just a little of what some striker knows, you know why? Cause youre trying to learn everything at once, and you just cant, there is no time, and since everybody on that school do the same, youll just trains with guys that dont know nothing too, thats what im telling, principles and objectives. So to finish, i cant tell you that are good schools of American Karate, cause i dont think American Karate is some usefull, if you tell me about some Wrestling Gym, ok, i know many good Wrestling Gym in US, and serious one, and even Kickboxing ones, cause these are serious art, all the other are just to gather student, and you know that.

 

[arnisador]

Does this mean Western boxing, or Savate, or something else?

 

[Infight]

I think its western boxing, if its what Tyson do.

 

[Angus]

Originally posted by Infight
Hey angus you missed the point! I said it shouldnt be effective cause:
1 - Its not Karate anymore, trying to put many things that were not in Karate.

Who's to say? Like I mentioned before, American Karate is about as specific as saying Okinawan Karate, Chinese Kung Fu/Wushu, or in your terms, Vale Tudo. It doesn't imply one specific art or system. There are many different systems/curriculums. In my personal experience, we focused on "stand up" material much the same as Okinawan/Japanese karate. It doesn't imply a mixture of a billion things. Some may be, but not all of them. Like I said, it's a huge generalization.

2 - Its not a matter of how good a school is, or isnt, what im saying is that when you try to do too many things you finish perfecting any of them, so some art that tries to do all of martial arts, you just cant be good in any of them, its logic not an opinion.

It most certainly IS about the school for the reasons I gave above. Not all are a mixture of a bunch of martial arts such that the student would be a "jack of all trades". However, remember that you said you didn't like one art that tries to do many things. Because...

3 - Its not an MMA mindset, i like many martial arts, Aikido, Wrestling, Boxe, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Karate.., and all of them knows where it wants to get, there is no Kickboxing training with some class of groundwork, you see?

It's unrelated, but how is MMA a whole lot different than the hypothetical art you're talking about? Both would be trying to cultivate a person who is adept in all ranges. What's the difference between have a two classes, one focusing on ground work and another on stand up, if the name of the art is the same vs two different names? It's the same thing. Unrelated to the topic, however.

4 - Im not judging schools, or teachers, but the art, of course its just my opinion, and anyone who wants to pratice any art, go ahead and do it, in worst case itll help your health. I assume that i hate these " we pratice all " martial art, and worse, they claim to be effective, that sucks man! Anyone can create any art you want, even here in Brazil, many guys keep trying to create many different arts to try to get new students, its market, but it sucks, youre offering something illusional, these guys should be prosecuted. There are many Karate forms everywhere but almost all follow the same principle, but what you told me about this American Karate, haha, cmon, in 5 years training everyday youll know just a little of what some ground fighter knows, or just a little of what some striker knows, you know why? Cause youre trying to learn everything at once, and you just cant, there is no time, and since everybody on that school do the same, youll just trains with guys that dont know nothing too, thats what im telling, principles and objectives. So to finish, i cant tell you that are good schools of American Karate, cause i dont think American Karate is some usefull, if you tell me about some Wrestling Gym, ok, i know many good Wrestling Gym in US, and serious one, and even Kickboxing ones, cause these are serious art, all the other are just to gather student, and you know that.

The problem, though, is that you're making a HUGE inferrance into what "American Karate" is. Somehow, it's become some sort of kickboxing-mixed-with-grappling art...I don't know where you got the idea. There could be some schools out there that are like that (though I doubt they'd call it Karate), but I've sure as hell never seen them. I fail to understand how you came to your conclusion, but I can say that it's making way to many blatant speculations. American Karate, like I said, is basically a general term rather than a specific art (think "grappling" versus "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu" or "wrestling" vs. "Greco-Roman wrestling"). Regardless of that, you are still passing judgment on both the schools (as being ineffective and a waste of time) and the students (as being, well, bad). Seems a bit impossible to me given that the judgments are based upon your knowlesdge of a name that does NOT imply a specific curriculum or lineage.

I didn't say I disagree with you about schools that focus on too many ranges too quickly, because in that sense I do, but I don't think your point has anything to do with American Karate because I don't think you really understand what it is.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Infight
Hey angus you missed the point! I said it shouldnt be effective cause:
1 - Its not Karate anymore, trying to put many things that were not in Karate.
2 - Its not a matter of how good a school is, or isnt, what im saying is that when you try to do too many things you finish perfecting any of them, so some art that tries to do all of martial arts, you just cant be good in any of them, its logic not an opinion.
3 - Its not an MMA mindset, i like many martial arts, Aikido, Wrestling, Boxe, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Karate.., and all of them knows where it wants to get, there is no Kickboxing training with some class of groundwork, you see?
4 - Im not judging schools, or teachers, but the art, of course its just my opinion, and anyone who wants to pratice any art, go ahead and do it, in worst case itll help your health. I assume that i hate these " we pratice all " martial art, and worse, they claim to be effective, that sucks man! Anyone can create any art you want, even here in Brazil, many guys keep trying to create many different arts to try to get new students, its market, but it sucks, youre offering something illusional, these guys should be prosecuted. There are many Karate forms everywhere but almost all follow the same principle, but what you told me about this American Karate, haha, cmon, in 5 years training everyday youll know just a little of what some ground fighter knows, or just a little of what some striker knows, you know why? Cause youre trying to learn everything at once, and you just cant, there is no time, and since everybody on that school do the same, youll just trains with guys that dont know nothing too, thats what im telling, principles and objectives. So to finish, i cant tell you that are good schools of American Karate, cause i dont think American Karate is some usefull, if you tell me about some Wrestling Gym, ok, i know many good Wrestling Gym in US, and serious one, and even Kickboxing ones, cause these are serious art, all the other are just to gather student, and you know that.

Where did all that come from??

10 years ago, the Brazilians came to America and made a statement, that statement was that the standup arts needed to learn to grapple.

We've done that!

Now you are saying the arts should be separate. Does not make sense at all. What does make sense is for the arts to evolve! It is common sense to perfect your art and if covering all ranges is what it takes, then so be it.

Also the last 10 years has created many new schools. These schools are the ones that represent the fighters of the UFC, Pride and all the others. These fighters most definately do not come from any other source. And if they did, then they transitioned into a "new school" to learn to fight for that arena.

Use what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is specifically your own!