I could read Bill's posts all day.
"American" Karate -- Just what is it?
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I could read Bill's posts all day.
Yeah, I knew going into this whole thing that there would be a pretty out-of-balance kids-to-adults ratio. But like you say, there are SOME adults who compete, so I was hoping that there would at least be a core group of adult men who were serious about the whole thing. Maybe 10 guys who could act as training partners and something of a support group.
At the very least there were a couple of things that made me wonder if, at the very least, students get passed too easily. There was a group of yellow belts doing warm ups, and the instructor lead them through chon-ji as one of the warm-ups. I assume that they had to perform chon-ji to even get their yellow belt, and yet some of them were doing it with VERY poor form (heel off the floor in their walking stance, shoulders not squared up, leaning forward into their punches) and in fact they all were doing it kind of different from each other. In fairness, maybe they just weren't taking it seriously because it was just a warm-up, because I was like, how did these guys pass their testing with that?
You know, I've always wondered, do any adults actually compete in any of that stuff?
I think I'm going to go check out this traditional wado-ryu school tonight:
http://wado-institute.com
I posted something about it in another thread and got a good report on the instructor. The only thing that makes me sigh a bit is that I liked the idea of a school that will really back you up and put a lot of effort specifically into preparing you for competition.
Yeah, I understand what you're saying.
For this place, I walked away feeling that they're probably really good at what they do . . . but what they do is pretty much all style and no substance. I DO want a focus on competition, but not at the expense of the deeper meaning and philosophies of martial arts, and also not if there is little-to-no focus on training karate in a way that develops power and real-world fighting ability.
So I did go and check out the wado-ryu school tonight. VERY traditional school. It's amazing how much different it was from the sport karate school I went to yesterday. Like, a TOTALLY different approach.
It was actually an adult advanced class that I dropped into (oddly, they do advanced classes 5 days a week, but beginners classes only two days a week) and tonight seemed to be a fundamentals night. They were doing some pretty basic stuff for an advanced class.
The setting was austere and there was a traditional memorial (shrine?) on the wall for who I guessed was the founder of wado-ryu. There were five students and one instructor--all ranging from what I'd guess are mid-20s to mid-50s. One of the biggest differences from the schools that I noticed were that I felt like the students at Pinnacle were throwing punches for show . . . the students at the Wado Institute were throwing punches that were intended to hurt somebody. But this could just be because a 200 lb man's punches are going to look a lot more forceful than a kids or a woman's.
I'll also say that coming from a TKD background with most of the karate that I've been exposed to being Shotokan, some of the movement is definitely a bit odd. Admittedly, my gut reaction was to stand up, wave my hands, and say, "Look guys, you're doing it wrong!"
I think that what I really want is a sort of middle-ground between the two approaches--not totally traditional, but also not overly modern--but at this point I'm realizing that I'm just going to have to pick something and go with it. The wado school is looking promising because, even if it's not exactly what I'm looking for, they have adults-only classes, the instructor has impressive credentials, and it's only 25 minutes away by bus. (I live downtown, don't have a car, and most of the martial arts schools are way out in the suburbs.)
It was actually an adult advanced class that I dropped into (oddly, they do advanced classes 5 days a week, but beginners classes only two days a week) and tonight seemed to be a fundamentals night. They were doing some pretty basic stuff for an advanced class.
The setting was austere and there was a traditional memorial (shrine?) on the wall for who I guessed was the founder of wado-ryu. There were five students and one instructor--all ranging from what I'd guess are mid-20s to mid-50s. One of the biggest differences from the schools that I noticed were that I felt like the students at Pinnacle were throwing punches for show . . . the students at the Wado Institute were throwing punches that were intended to hurt somebody. But this could just be because a 200 lb man's punches are going to look a lot more forceful than a kids or a woman's.
I'll also say that coming from a TKD background with most of the karate that I've been exposed to being Shotokan, some of the movement is definitely a bit odd. Admittedly, my gut reaction was to stand up, wave my hands, and say, "Look guys, you're doing it wrong!"
I think that what I really want is a sort of middle-ground between the two approaches--not totally traditional, but also not overly modern--but at this point I'm realizing that I'm just going to have to pick something and go with it. The wado school is looking promising because, even if it's not exactly what I'm looking for, they have adults-only classes, the instructor has impressive credentials, and it's only 25 minutes away by bus. (I live downtown, don't have a car, and most of the martial arts schools are way out in the suburbs.)
LOL, I get that reaction when I see Shotkan, I come from a Wado background. I'm surprised at a 'shrine' though. Wado tends not to go for that sort of thing. I love Wado Ryu though, the katas and the Bunkai. since doing MMA as well I've found a lot off the ground moves as well as the stand up in the Bunkai. I also love the approach of Wado 'if you're not ther you can't be punched' a good one for me, that's simplified of course but I do like the avoidance and then belting them parts of Wado!
In Okinawan styles, that's called the 'Wall of Honor' or the 'Shomen'. We face it and bow, we also bow to our sensei. I know that some people object to this; they consider it a form of pagan worship. I just consider it a traditional way of showing respect. But to each their own.
Possibly, but it could also be just what you think; what is done for competition is different from what is done for traditional martial arts training. A punch does not have to look pretty to be effective, but if one is doing kata in a competition, the speed of the punch and the snap of the gi are taken as indicators that power is being generated.
We have a TKD guy in our dojo now. He's great and he has some very interesting moves that he shows us; he can also jump and kick like nobody's business. But our punches are very different; we generate power in a very different way. I can't say which is 'better', but yes, it's different.
Wado is about the least competition-oriented MA I could imagine, though. The good part is that there are lots of katas, and some of them will be unusual to judges; that can be a good thing. The bad part is, wado has a ground game, and you can't grapple in one-point sparring!
Are there any Kempo/Kenpo or TKD/TSD or even Isshin-Ryu schools near you? When I got to competitions, that's what I see a lot of; along with a sprinkling of Shorin-Ryu, various sorts of Kung Fu, and local combinations of various styles like "American Karate," but sometimes given some local name, like Soo Do Thai, for example (they compete locally and win a lot, I'm not dissing them).
In answer to one of your other questions, yes, I do see some adults (mostly 'young adults') competing in the various 'creative' kata and weapons categories. Not too many older adults, though. I have seen some 'demos' done by entire dojos and sometimes I see 'team kata' done as competition, but not that much.
Let me show you what we have here in Detroit, maybe that will be of use to you where you are.
Primarily, in SE Michgan, there are two groups:
http://www.michigansportkarate.com/
http://www.greatlakeskaratecircuit.com/
Both of them are members of various organizations. They are usually 'open' competitions, meaning open to all styles, and open to all comers. Some are specifically for a given style, and some are for members of that association only.
You can, if you are a member of that organization, compete year-round for points, which are tallied up and at the end of the year, they have grand champions for every age and belt grouping (novice, intermediate, advanced, black belt, men and women) and for kata, weapons, and sparring, etc.
If you look at the sponsors of the various tournaments, you can see that they are not all the same style; but many are TKD and related Korean or Korean-derived styles. Obviously there is much more emphasis placed on competition and 'sport' karate in these dojos that sponsor tournaments.
I don't belong to any of the organizations, and I don't compete year-long or gather points. And most of the competitions I go to are Isshin-Ryu only or Isshin-Ryu sponsored open competitions in other states. I may not be able to do those anymore due to finances, though. Traveling to fight aint' cheap. Imagine spending $500 to drive 12 hours each way, get a hotel, pay for food, enter the tournament, and losing your first and only bout in less than 2 minutes. Ouch. And they were even out of t-shirts.
The main reason I prefer Isshin-Ryu oriented tournaments is because the judges know what Isshin-Ryu kata looks like (not that there isn't a lot of argument over how those kata are done, there is
), and sparring tends to be actual hitting even in point-sparring. Continuous sparring is rock-em-sock-em robots. Real karate, real kicks and punches, just done with pads and a bit of restraint.But most of these open tournaments are for the kids. Some times there are no adults my age at all; I end up competing against 40, 30, and even 20 somethings (I rock their world, too, even when I lose). We've had some adult women go home disappointed because they were the only ones in their division and no one to fight. Here's your trophy, you can go home now. Great.
Here's an example; a dojo mate of mine who volunteered to fight out of her gender and belt and age classification just because there was no one to fight her! These guys were black belts, to her brown. They were in their 20's to her somewhat older age, and of course men to her female. Pure courage on her part, by the way.
[video=youtube_share;775SovXN69c]http://youtu.be/775SovXN69c[/video]
[video=youtube_share;Dmr-xow1bEg]http://youtu.be/Dmr-xow1bEg[/video]
There are a lot more videos of kata and sparring on my feed, feel free to check them out if you want a feel for what these things look like. Notice how small the crowds are by the time the adults perform kata and fight!
http://www.youtube.com/user/wiggyjones?feature=watch
Not entirely unusual. Beginners generally have poorer conditioning than advanced students, and for most beginners, two times a week is usually enough. Even if you are in pretty good condition and came from another system, the Wado techniques place an emphasis on specific muscle groups that other systems might not (and vice versa), so even the experienced beginner will need time to recover.
This is not unusual of a traditional Shotokan or Wado Ryu dojo. If anything, by holding your advanced students to a higher standard, and insisting that their fundamental basic techniques show a higher quality with each rank, it ensures that your students will be well-equipped to handle the "advanced" techniques. I've lost track of the number of times I'll see some schools' black belts performing certain advanced kata, and it looks just plain terrible.
For example, in kata Gojushiho Dai, you must have a strong cat stance, and learn how to move the body by shifting, instead of stepping. Otherwise, you start bouncing up and down, and your techniques look weak. Unfortunately, some schools only teach you the sequence, without making sure that your fundamental technique is sufficiently good.
Teaching sequences and advanced techniques to advanced students is actually easy, IF you've constantly had your advanced students keeping their basic techniques sharp. This is actually very common in various JKA-type schools.
Maybe so, but in the end, you still need to look at the practitioner's fundamental technique. Is he punching using the lower body to drive the upper body? Or is he throwing sub-optimal punches because he puts too much emphasis on the upper body?
When you're in a traditional Karate school that focuses on good technique, it's not going to be so much of whether or not the super-talented guy has a better punch than the lesser-talented fellow, but rather, how much better is the student now, versus himself of a week ago? A month ago? A year ago?
I can sympathize... Having gone from Shotokan to Shuri Ryu, to Wado, back to Shotokan, does create for some confusion, but after a few weeks, you'll adjust quite nicely. I learned a greater appreciation for each arts' methods.
Looks like you found your school, then. Osaka Sensei is definitely good, and is the real deal, so you'll be getting a good workout and training regimen.
Wado Ryu may have what you call a ground game but we don't grapple as part of Wado. You'll see a lot of techniques you can use in grappling in the Bunkai as well as the self defence ones.
We also compete a lot in Wado, some of ours go regularly to America to fight. It's a very good style for sparring and fighting. The katas are similiar to those in Shotokan, as you'd imagine. I wouldn't say they are unusual. I've been to a lot of Wado Ryu places to train and compete but haven't seen anything like a 'shrine wall'.
Here's the Wado Ryu katas as done by the founder Ohtsuka Sensei.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjACMJ5xrus&feature=BFa&list=PL7DEACE6B9B513EF4&lf=results_main
We also compete a lot in Wado, some of ours go regularly to America to fight. It's a very good style for sparring and fighting. The katas are similiar to those in Shotokan, as you'd imagine. I wouldn't say they are unusual. I've been to a lot of Wado Ryu places to train and compete but haven't seen anything like a 'shrine wall'.
Here's the Wado Ryu katas as done by the founder Ohtsuka Sensei.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjACMJ5xrus&feature=BFa&list=PL7DEACE6B9B513EF4&lf=results_main
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I have heard this about Wado, and it's actually one of the reasons I'm interested in karate in general. I'm a small guy. I can't be getting hit by some big 220 lb. dude throwing haymakers. I need a style that will help me to stay out of harm's way and counter-strike without without taking any unnecessary damage.
I've heard it said that Shotokan is for the big guys and Wado for us smaller people. the stances aren't deep like many styles and there's a lot of 'avoidance', my instructor says if you aren't there you can't be hit, we actually put that into the MMA. The founder got rid of a lot of the 'fussiness' of preparation stances etc putting in economy of movement instead, he changed anything that was going to use up too much energy. There's quite a bit shifting your body weight to avoid being hit.
Interesting.
Isn't wado regarded as a Japanese style, though?
If I move over to karate, there's definitely going to be something that I'll miss about TKD. The kicking is lots of fun and sparring with good kickers is a lot of fun.
Anyone ever studied two different striking styles concurrently?
When I first walked in the door there was a large trophy display, so I thought that was a good sign. Also, according to the website, "Over the years Osaka Sensei's program has created many successful "sport karate" competitors. Osaka Sensei's champions have competed with great success across the United States, Europe and Japan."
It also says that the youth program's instructor, Aurora Taylor-Rojas, is a 7 time Utah Open Karate Championship kumite champion.
There are places around, but there a handful of considerations:
1. I don't have a car. Distance isn't necessarily a huge problem, but the route needs to be fairly direct via public transportation, and often it's not.
2. Salt Lake sucks for traditional martial arts. There are actually some good MMA and muay Thai clubs around, but if you want a traditional style, then your options are limited. There is a Kenpo 5.0 school that I would be interested in checking out if it wasn't so far away. There's also a Kyokushin school that I would definitely be down to take a look at it, but it's over an hour away, and that's even with a car . . . impossible to get there without one. There's also a WTF TKD school that I would consider, but the no-face-punch thing will always bother me, and it's also impossible to get there without a car.
3. I would probably be happy with a good ITF school, but the local ITF schools (which are actually USTF) do not meet my standards. I really like the ITF sparring format, as I've mentioned before, and the ho sin sul is also pretty cool, but I was involved with a local class and there were many pitfalls. It was mostly kids, the instructor was insane and, in the 4 months I was there, never once--across all belts ranging from white to red--was there any sparring. My breaking point came when I attended a testing and red belts tested successfully without doing even one second of sparring (and this was a test that was overseen by the higher ups in the USTF in Utah).
Thanks for the info, I'll take a look at these.
That would be terrible! You're not at least guaranteed more than one match?
I guess where the value of competing in more than one thing comes in.
I think it would be cool to one day take 3 months to just travel around the country doing tournament after tournament, hitting a different one each weekend.
Now that sounds like fun!
Are isshin-ryu tournaments usually open to everyone or just isshin-ryu stylists?
That's lame.
I found myself in a similar situation in the one and only judo competition I went to, the Minnesota State Open. I was a white belt and weighed in at 123 lbs. There were only two other guys who were even remotely close to me in weight, with both of them over 150 lbs and higher ranked.
I lost both matches. It was kind of a disheartening experience.
Definitely gotta give her mad props for going out there and challenging herself. How did she end up doing?
I'll definitely check that out. Thanks!
Bill I agree and disagree. I trained in two different styles of "American Karate" (mostly both mutt styles) for 20 years. If I would have done that kind of point fighting I would been brutally beaten on the street. Example ( I hooked kicked a guy in the head my final point to win the Isshinryu HOF. "Grand Master Ralph Passaro said it's Great to see a fat guy kick like that." The kick did not even hurt the guy. My style of American Karate point fighting. that kick would have pissed him off enough to kick my butt on the street. I was able to land it because his Style of Isshinryu sparing made him much smaller planted, stiff, and rigid which made him slower than a much fatter Scottie.
With that being said My Isshinryu instructor that you met at Master Mitchum's Taught me how to fight using Both hands or a hand and a foot at the same time as well as using- adapting kata technique to enhance my point fighting.
example
The fight before my final fight, the guy throws a waist height side kick, using the technique from Seiuchin Kata (down block, side block at the same time then upper cut back fist.) I did that portion of the kata only not stopping at the side block but going straight into an upper cut the down turns into a reverse punch so that i am doing two weapons at the same time if he blocks the upper cut the punch hits him. this causes me to block and hit at the same time which gives my opponent the thought that my Goodness he blocked me and hit me at once he is fast. The end result was me getting a to much contact warning and praying that he doesn't start bleeding while the grown man is crying. The guy that beat me to win the Grands was faster and did that better than me. That style of point fighting could very well work on the street. SO Mr. Bill I respectfully disagree. and respectfully agree.
Yes, but Isshin-Ryu (my style) is Okinawan. Okinawa may be part of Japan, but at the same time, it's not.
No, I stick with one style for now. I have a hard enough time mastering my own style and a long way to go to even achieve proficiency. Eventually, I want to add some judo to my work box, but not for awhile yet.
Well, I have trophies from every competition I've been to. And some of them don't mean much, frankly. Some tournaments give them out to one and all. Given the number of divisions, and 1,2,3 and sometimes 4th place awards in each, that's a lot of trophies. It doesn't take long to make a pile of them.
Nope. I've been to some tournaments where there were only three guys in my division. Two guys fight, one gets the bye. The loser of the first match automatically gets third place. The remaining two fight for 1st and 2nd. That's the way it is.
I'm 50 years old with a family. Not going to happen. If you are in a position to do it, cool.
Often, yes. A tournament will say 'open' if it is open to other styles. But continuous sparring is showing up here and there in all kinds of open tournaments. It's becoming quite popular.
But it is what it is. You should see the look on the faces of the guys I've been put up against. I'm twice their age and over twice their weight. They're usually faster and more flexible, but hitting me is like bouncing off a brick wall; if nothing else, I can bully and bounce them straight out of the ring. I usually do, too. I'm not used to backing up in a sparring match.
Well, she lost, as was to be expected; she was pretty much outclassed by these guys who could just reach over and tap her on the head as you saw. But she did win a round against one of them, and I thought that was awesome. Point was a) she is brave but also b) very often, this is what happens in adults competing; not enough adults.
Tournaments these days are mostly for kids, was my point. If you go to them, you see.
I like Naihanchi for the same reason. Two punches. Pick the one you're going to block; the other will get ya. In the dojo, we practice a back-fist from seuinchin stance to the side, followed by a crossover step and back kick, but done as if both were being launched at the same time. Defend the backfist, and the kick gets ya. Other way, same thing. Kinda like the backfist-kick in Kusanku, but with a stepover back kick and not a front snap kick.
