Always wondered does this kind of strike have a name/term?

[Steve]

I find it strange that people can accept that there are potentially lethal techniques used in grappling such as RNC but that in other TMAs that actually date back to lawless days where you may have needed to kill your attacker, don't have such techniques. The same people probably accept that Special Forces soldiers are taught to kill with their bare hands, but in the same breath are saying that the people who teach them don't have those same skills.

In all martial arts there are numerous techniques that can kill or cause major injury. There are areas of the body that are more vulnerable than others. Many martial arts are sanitised. The same techniques are taught to children as are taught to adults. The application of the technique is not taught. We have people rubbishing kata as anachronistic and useless, yet kata are filled with potentially lethal techniques and the information on how those techniques should be applied. In most schools those applications are never shown, mainly because the instructors have no idea of what they are actually teaching, wrt kata.

We recently had a guy here in Australia in strife with the authorities for teaching knife fighting. His arguement was that unless the attacking partner knew how to attack with a knife it was unrealistic training for the guys learning to defend. He had a good point but he shouldn't have shouted it to all and sundry.

Same thing applies to RBMA. If we were to promote the fact that we are teaching techniques that are potentially lethal there will be people screaming for us to be closed down. Here in Victoria it is illegal even for MMA fights to be conducted in a cage. That makes then too brutal.

Same with this technique of the OP. The way it is shown and the way it is described here it is a nasty strike. Done a slightly different way it is potentially lethal. Don't expect to find it on YT anytime soon.

I might be wrong, but reading through the thread for the first time, I get the impression that Drop Bear is saying that any technique MIGHT result in death, but that no technique is guaranteed to be deadly. It's the idea that this is a death punch he seems to be reacting to, or that it's more or less deadly than a close fisted punch to a delicate area of the body.

As per usual, it looks like a lot of cross talk occurring on both sides of the aisle here.

Regarding the mortality rate of a laryngeal fracture, it may be high, but how likely is this strike in context going to result in a laryngeal fracture, considering that it's easily defended by dropping one's chin.

Others have suggested that this strike is effective to other parts of the body, such as joints or the nose. Thus the "nose shot". Drop bear didn't invent that.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I might be wrong, but reading through the thread for the first time, I get the impression that Drop Bear is saying that any technique MIGHT result in death, but that no technique is guaranteed to be deadly.

Stepping on a lego MIGHT result in death. Nobody has suggested that the arc hand to the throat is "guaranteed to be deadly". Only that it is far more likely to be fatal than a strike to most other targets. And that is true.

It's the idea that this is a death punch he seems to be reacting to, or that it's more or less deadly than a close fisted punch to a delicate area of the body.

The "death punch" idea that he is reacting to doesn't exist anywhere other than his imagination. It's certainly not something anybody has claimed here.

 

[Steve]

At the moment I don't have a question for K-man, I understand everything he's posted in this thread. You'll notice that I've thanked him for several of his posts. My question to YOU is why YOU would post a one-liner to me that was clearly unnecessary, unfunny and uncalled for. I'm going to suggest to you that in the future you think twice about your post before hitting submit. May save you some hassle. Just a friendly suggestion.

It is situational and depends upon the goal you're looking to achieve. The hand, as described by the OP and most everyone here, would be an easier transition from strike to control/balance displacement/throw or transporter than a palm heel to the chin (called a chin jab in WWII combatives). The chin jab is quite effective, but if done properly is going to move the head at an upward angle away from you which makes it harder to facilitate a control based movement. It is better as a force-on-force strike to disable/stun the attacker.

not a question for me, but I think that the implication from Kman when he asked drop bear who performed the tracheotomy was to be a little smart alecky. I may have read into it, but it came off to me as a little sarcastic and implied that drop bear either hadn't used the technique or used it incorrectly, because otherwise the person would be dead.

In the same way, you acknowledge agreeing with Kman, and so it makes some sense when you described using the technique without killing the bad guy, to ask you the same question.

It really seems to me that you could all agree that this technique is not a "death punch" or instant "kill move," although could very seriously damage or even kill an opponent.

 

[Steve]

Stepping on a lego MIGHT result in death. Nobody has suggested that the arc hand to the throat is "guaranteed to be deadly". Only that it is far more likely to be fatal than a strike to most other targets. And that is true.

The "death punch" idea that he is reacting to doesn't exist anywhere other than his imagination. It's certainly not something anybody has claimed here.

This isn't true. I just read the entire thread in sequence, start to finish, and I think the sarcastic question to drop bear from k-man set a poor tone, and created a snow ball effect. When k-man asked the question, "Who performed the tracheotomy?" it clearly implied that this technique is teh d34dly. Did to me, at least.

Look, I see where you're coming from, but this bickering isn't just because one person is making **** up. Everyone has a hand in it.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

not a question for me...

I think drop bear can answer for himself. Whether or not he chooses to do so is another question. If you think the initial response to him, from another poster was 'smart-alecky' then I'm sure you'll agree that this was what he was doing to me. And it had no place in this discussion.

In the same way, you acknowledge agreeing with Kman, and so it makes some sense when you described using the technique without killing the bad guy, to ask you the same question.

No, it doesn't make sense. It's childish to drop an ignorant one-liner as a sort of 'get the friend of my enemy' thing. Since I did in fact describe using this technique, without injuring the individual it is childish to ask who was there to perform a surgical procedure. That kind of nonsense needs to be taken elsewhere and not put into a serious thread. At least I think it is a serious thread, and reading though it I would suggest most everyone else does as well.

Let DB answer for himself, or let him take it to a PM. Either way don't enable him. And if you can't see that he's wearing thin on others then I don't know what to tell you.

With respect.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MT Moderator-

 

[Steve]

I think drop bear can answer for himself. Whether or not he chooses to do so is another question. If you think the initial response to him, from another poster was 'smart-alecky' then I'm sure you'll agree that this was what he was doing to me. And it had no place in this discussion.

No, it doesn't make sense. It's childish to drop an ignorant one-liner as a sort of 'get the friend of my enemy' thing. Since I did in fact describe using this technique, without injuring the individual it is childish to ask who was there to perform a surgical procedure. That kind of nonsense needs to be taken elsewhere and not put into a serious thread. At least I think it is a serious thread, and reading though it I would suggest most everyone else does as well.

Let DB answer for himself, or let him take it to a PM. Either way don't enable him. And if you can't see that he's wearing thin on others then I don't know what to tell you.

With respect.

I think, with respect, I'll comment when I feel the compulsion to do so. Taking it to PM is a terrific suggestion you might consider yourself, if there is a question you want limited to only one person.

Regarding Drop Bear, I've seen nothing in his behavior that leads me to believe he is reluctant to speak for himself.

All of that said, I fully agree that one liners don't help foster positive communication. Neither does calling people ignorant, rude, stupid or childish (all things you have called other people... all drop bear, IIRC). When the tone of a conversation fails to meet our high standards for courtesy and respect, we all bear some measure of responsibility.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

All of that said, I fully agree that one liners don't help foster positive communication.

That's all you needed to say. Anyway, back to the OP.

 

[K-man]

not a question for me, but I think that the implication from Kman when he asked drop bear who performed the tracheotomy was to be a little smart alecky. I may have read into it, but it came off to me as a little sarcastic and implied that drop bear either hadn't used the technique or used it incorrectly, because otherwise the person would be dead.


In the same way, you acknowledge agreeing with Kman, and so it makes some sense when you described using the technique without killing the bad guy, to ask you the same question.


It really seems to me that you could all agree that this technique is not a "death punch" or instant "kill move," although could very seriously damage or even kill an opponent.

OK. I have put below the context of the conversation as you obviously didn't read it.

Also present in Goju kata as a strike to the trachea. As others have said, a very nasty strike. There is a variation of this taught in Japanese Goju that is even more nasty, if that is possible.
:asian:

My comments pertain to the Goju variation.

I have done it to people. It is a bit of fun. Never hurt my hand.

To which I replied ...

So who performed the tracheotomy?

You guys have no idea of what I am talking about but others commenting here do. It is advanced training and you have never performed the strike I am talking about. If you had, and succeeded in connecting, the recipient would require an emergency tracheotomy. I was not being 'smart Aleky'. It is a technique I would never use unless my life was in danger. Performing the strike in the way I am discussing for a bit of fun may have severe consequences.

Again you are commenting on something of which you have no knowledge and I am not expanding on this on the internet.

They don't die from it.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OImp3hoSR3M

OK that one is not really. But it was funny.

From the strike I am referring to, they may.

Done properly, not the way it was done in your video, it is one of the more dangerous strikes.
:asian:

not a question for me, but I think that the implication from Kman when he asked drop bear who performed the tracheotomy was to be a little smart alecky. I may have read into it, but it came off to me as a little sarcastic and implied that drop bear either hadn't used the technique or used it incorrectly, because otherwise the person would be dead.

In the same way, you acknowledge agreeing with Kman, and so it makes some sense when you described using the technique without killing the bad guy, to ask you the same question.

It really seems to me that you could all agree that this technique is not a "death punch" or instant "kill move," although could very seriously damage or even kill an opponent.

Regarding the mortality rate of a laryngeal fracture, it may be high, but how likely is this strike in context going to result in a laryngeal fracture, considering that it's easily defended by dropping one's chin.

That is truly an uninformed comment. It is no more 'easily defended' than any of your advanced BJJ techniques. Good luck if you reckon you can do that against a skilled person.

You guys know 100 fold more about BJJ than I will ever know. It is a pity you can't acknowledge that other people with years of experience might know more about something than you when it comes to TMAs. You might even learn something one day.

 

[Steve]

Spin it however you want, Kman. Your question was sarcastic and not friendly. In the same way saying I "obviously didn't read" the thread is discourteous and unfriendly. You are quick to accuse others of misconduct and never accept any personal accountability for helping foster an unfriendly and discourteous atmosphere. There is no other way to interpret, "Who performed the tracheotomy?" than it being sarcastic and unfriendly. KSD immediately got that message when Drop Bear said it to him. How could you possibly think it would be interpreted otherwise going the opposite direction?

As I said before to KSD, until you guys accept some share of the situation, it will persist. You revel in accusing people who disagree with you of being rude, discourteous, ignorant or any slew of other insulting descriptors, but fail to consider that you are half the problem.

There is a very high horse being ridden around here by a few of you guys, and the quality of the conversation will improve dramatically if you would just dismount for a while and talk WITH the rest of the gang around here, instead of AT us.

And KSD, I find it the height of irony that you slung a sarcastic one liner at me in your last response to me.

 

[ballen0351]

Glad to see some folks here haven't changed. Lol

 

[K-man]

Spin it however you want, Kman. Your question was sarcastic and not friendly. In the same way saying I "obviously didn't read" the thread is discourteous and unfriendly. You are quick to accuse others of misconduct and never accept any personal accountability for helping foster an unfriendly and discourteous atmosphere. There is no other way to interpret, "Who performed the tracheotomy?" than it being sarcastic and unfriendly. KSD immediately got that message when Drop Bear said it to him. How could you possibly think it would be interpreted otherwise going the opposite direction?

As I said before to KSD, until you guys accept some share of the situation, it will persist. You revel in accusing people who disagree with you of being rude, discourteous, ignorant or any slew of other insulting descriptors, but fail to consider that you are half the problem.

There is a very high horse being ridden around here by a few of you guys, and the quality of the conversation will improve dramatically if you would just dismount for a while and talk WITH the rest of the gang around here, instead of AT us.

And KSD, I find it the height of irony that you slung a sarcastic one liner at me in your last response to me.

Take it how you like. I'm beyond caring what you think. In previous threads you have admitted that you don't read the posts carefully so it's not an insult to suggest you didn't read this one. I have had numerous informative discussions with drop bear and come away with some useful information. Even Hanzou has offered some good insight between sledging. You haven't offered one positive thought on this topic and it seems you're just interested at taking shots at me. Well go ahead, I don't mind.

As as to people disagreeing. You won't find me disagreeing with any comment on BJJ techniques as I don't consider myself informed enough to comment. It's nothing short of amazing how other people who have zero knowledge on a subject are suddenly armchair experts.

 

[Steve]

Glad to see some folks here haven't changed. Lol

Welcome back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hanzou]

I find it strange that people can accept that there are potentially lethal techniques used in grappling such as RNC but that in other TMAs that actually date back to lawless days where you may have needed to kill your attacker, don't have such techniques. The same people probably accept that Special Forces soldiers are taught to kill with their bare hands, but in the same breath are saying that the people who teach them don't have those same skills.

In all martial arts there are numerous techniques that can kill or cause major injury. There are areas of the body that are more vulnerable than others. Many martial arts are sanitised. The same techniques are taught to children as are taught to adults. The application of the technique is not taught. We have people rubbishing kata as anachronistic and useless, yet kata are filled with potentially lethal techniques and the information on how those techniques should be applied. In most schools those applications are never shown, mainly because the instructors have no idea of what they are actually teaching, wrt kata.

This goes back to the reason why Jigaro Kano removed the lethal techniques from active Judo practice, and placed them into Kata. His Judoka went on to defeat the classical Jujutsu schools who were full of "dangerous" techniques that they could never use.

The RNC is given a lot of credit because people can actively practice it while training, and perfect the technique under pressure. Hell, I got an RNC off in class tonight, and caused my partner to pass out because he wanted to attempt a leg lock instead of being smart and tapping out. I'm slapping the RNC on actual resisting opponents over and over again. Needless to say (unless I'm in an extraordinary circumstance) I can get the RNC off in a bad situation against a very bad person.

How often are you striking someone in the throat with this punch? How often are you damaging wind pipes and causing people to choke on their own blood?

Then comes the other problem; If I'm applying the RNC, I have the ability to release it as soon as I feel my opponent go limp. Hes unconscious but he's alive, and unhurt. It's a very gentle way to end a confrontation, so you can use it in a myriad of ways and situations.

Smashing someone's windpipe isn't gentle in any way, shape, or form. So that marginalizes it even further in your arsenal. So you have a technique that you never really practice in class, and has an extremely limited use in self defense. That's going to cause a lot of martial artists to never use it.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

And KSD, I find it the height of irony that you slung a sarcastic one liner at me in your last response to me.

Steve, I'm sorry you took it as such but it wasn't meant the way you took it. I cited a portion of your post where you basically agreed with my assessment. And I'm glad you did see some comments the same way that I did. And then I wanted to get back to the OP. And I think that is the best thing to do.

 

[drop bear]

At the moment I don't have a question for K-man, I understand everything he's posted in this thread. You'll notice that I've thanked him for several of his posts. My question to YOU is why YOU would post a one-liner to me that was clearly unnecessary, unfunny and uncalled for. I'm going to suggest to you that in the future you think twice about your post before hitting submit. May save you some hassle. Just a friendly suggestion.



It is situational and depends upon the goal you're looking to achieve. The hand, as described by the OP and most everyone here, would be an easier transition from strike to control/balance displacement/throw or transporter than a palm heel to the chin (called a chin jab in WWII combatives). The chin jab is quite effective, but if done properly is going to move the head at an upward angle away from you which makes it harder to facilitate a control based movement. It is better as a force-on-force strike to disable/stun the attacker.

So it looses relevence because it was directed at you and not me.

I thought it was pretty funny by the way. And you are going to hassle me regardless because I am not a groupie and that enrages you. Just something you will have to either get over or not I suppose. You are not the least irritating person either. I just don't get baited and rage out as easily.

If I was going for a transporter I would stay on the throat. Just choke slam the guy.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VBCSKUvOufA

 

[drop bear]

OK. I have put below the context of the conversation as you obviously didn't read it.


My comments pertain to the Goju variation.


To which I replied ...


You guys have no idea of what I am talking about but others commenting here do. It is advanced training and you have never performed the strike I am talking about. If you had, and succeeded in connecting, the recipient would require an emergency tracheotomy. I was not being 'smart Aleky'. It is a technique I would never use unless my life was in danger. Performing the strike in the way I am discussing for a bit of fun may have severe consequences.




From the strike I am referring to, they may.





That is truly an uninformed comment. It is no more 'easily defended' than any of your advanced BJJ techniques. Good luck if you reckon you can do that against a skilled person.

You guys know 100 fold more about BJJ than I will ever know. It is a pity you can't acknowledge that other people with years of experience might know more about something than you when it comes to TMAs. You might even learn something one day.

So you have actually done it to people?

Even if you don't believe me. Two other people here have.

 

[drop bear]

Glad to see some folks here haven't changed. Lol

Hey you with your one linerness, Words hurt.
Photo of a puppy.

Nailing that throat shot.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

This goes back to the reason why Jigaro Kano removed the lethal techniques from active Judo practice, and placed them into Kata. His Judoka went on to defeat the classical Jujutsu schools who were full of "dangerous" techniques that they could never use.

I'm not really sure I follow your point. Judo specializes in sport applications to be used in a competition venue. Any classical jujutsu school competing against a judo school, in a competition venue would have to complete using the sport judo rule set. Thus the more dangerous techniques are not in play. So if a judo school, that specializes in competition defeats a Jujutsu school that doesn't specialize in competition, using sport rules...what does it prove?

Let me put it another way so that I'm clear. Let's put a sport BJJ student in competition against a sport TKD student. But the BJJ isn't allowed to do any takedowns or submissions. They need to remain standing and the BJJ has to do more kicks than anything else. If the TKD student wins, and they probably would under these restrictions, does it prove TKD is better than BJJ? Of course not, you took away a large portion of the BJJ student's arsenal. Same with the Judo vs. Jujutsu example you've given. If they're competing under a rule set that takes away a large portion of the Jujutsu students arsenal and forces them to compete using a rule set the Judo student specializes in...well, what other result would you expect?

Turn it around and say that the Judo student needs to abide by their training and rule set, yet the Jujutsu student can abide by their training without regard to a rule set and can thus use many techniques up to and including deadly force...would it be fair? Of course not. The Judoka may still win if he/she 'gets there first with the most' but it would still be an unfair fight.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

So it looses relevence because it was directed at you and not me.

I thought it was pretty funny by the way. And you are going to hassle me regardless because I am not a groupie and that enrages you. Just something you will have to either get over or not I suppose. You are not the least irritating person either. I just don't get baited and rage out as easily.

Um...okay, whatever :uhoh:

How about getting back on topic.