Always wondered does this kind of strike have a name/term?

[Kong Soo Do]

Evolution of Judo Contest Rules
The Story of Shiro Saigo



According to the early practitioners of Judo, the duels and matches against other JJ schools were highly dangerous, and could lead to serious injury or death.

Okay, there are some issues to discuss. First, both of your links are to a Judo website so I'd say that there is some biased at play here. Secondly, both articles try to make the point that Judo is superior to Jujutsu in a fight because it won in a match. But as I pointed out, though these were no doubt tough matches, they did not allow the full arsenal of Jujutsu to be used. Indeed, the articles point this out in that they used throws, chokes, holds or arm locks but not other techniques used in Jujutsu. We have an apples to oranges comparison here.

It is of note that Dermott 'Pat' O'Neill of WWII combatives fame, during the era of WWII combatives development was the highest non-Japanese Judoka in the world (5th Dan). When asked why he didn't include any Judo in WWII combatives he commented that Judo was useless [in battle] unless the enemy soldier was wearing a gi. William Fairbairn was also a Judoka, having tested before and having his Dan certificates signed by Kano Sensei himself. He also concluded that Judo was useless in H2H as it relied more on positioning and non-lethal control than what was needed i.e. quick incapacitation and/or deadly force.

This isn't to say that elements of Judo aren't quite useful for a real world altercation. And this shouldn't be taken to be a slight against Judo or Judoka. Quite the opposite, it is very effective when used in the venue for which it was designed, and as stated, elements are useful for the 'street'. But the article you posted goes into detail about all the stuff that CAN'T be used in Judo. Those arts that wished to compete against Judo in their venue have to abide by their rules which limits the art, in this case Jujutsu and the responses they can employ.

In my example before of BJJ vs. TKD. If we make the BJJ practitioner abide by KKW TKD match rules against a KKW TKD practitioner...who would you expect to win the match? I'd expect the KKW TKD practitioner to win this match based on the restriction put in place. But to then proclaim TKD is superior to BJJ would be less than honest. Even if there was an article about it on a TKD website saying it was superior.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Unless, of course, you now what the hell you are doing. LOL

Hey, I didn't say that any of my punches would slip off.

 

[Hanzou]

Okay, there are some issues to discuss. First, both of your links are to a Judo website so I'd say that there is some biased at play here. Secondly, both articles try to make the point that Judo is superior to Jujutsu in a fight because it won in a match. But as I pointed out, though these were no doubt tough matches, they did not allow the full arsenal of Jujutsu to be used. Indeed, the articles point this out in that they used throws, chokes, holds or arm locks but not other techniques used in Jujutsu. We have an apples to oranges comparison here.

What would be missing from that arsenal? Striking? If the Judoka dominated with throws, chokes, holds, and arm locks, why would striking make a difference? This is of course if striking was disallowed in the first place, and nothing indicates that it was. Furthermore, why would the Tokyo police department purposely stack the deck in favor of Judo when they were attempting to find the best school to teach their officers?

Isn't that kind of pointless?

It is of note that Dermott 'Pat' O'Neill of WWII combatives fame, during the era of WWII combatives development was the highest non-Japanese Judoka in the world (5th Dan). When asked why he didn't include any Judo in WWII combatives he commented that Judo was useless [in battle] unless the enemy soldier was wearing a gi. William Fairbairn was also a Judoka, having tested before and having his Dan certificates signed by Kano Sensei himself. He also concluded that Judo was useless in H2H as it relied more on positioning and non-lethal control than what was needed i.e. quick incapacitation and/or deadly force.

And this is relevant how exactly?

This isn't to say that elements of Judo aren't quite useful for a real world altercation. And this shouldn't be taken to be a slight against Judo or Judoka. Quite the opposite, it is very effective when used in the venue for which it was designed, and as stated, elements are useful for the 'street'. But the article you posted goes into detail about all the stuff that CAN'T be used in Judo. Those arts that wished to compete against Judo in their venue have to abide by their rules which limits the art, in this case Jujutsu and the responses they can employ.

Except it wasn't in Judo's venue, it was a third party venue that set up the tournament. If you wish to argue that Kano somehow set up the tournament so that his new art could gain notoriety, you'd have to provide some evidence.

In my example before of BJJ vs. TKD. If we make the BJJ practitioner abide by KKW TKD match rules against a KKW TKD practitioner...who would you expect to win the match? I'd expect the KKW TKD practitioner to win this match based on the restriction put in place. But to then proclaim TKD is superior to BJJ would be less than honest. Even if there was an article about it on a TKD website saying it was superior.

That's a massive false equivalency. There's a pretty big difference between not allowing a Bjj person to grapple, and not allowing a Jujutsuka to not gouge eyes and hit someone in the groin. It's also important to note that after that tournament took place, the various Jujutsu schools fell in line behind Kano, and supported the Kodokan. That wouldn't have happened if some shenanigans had taken place.

 

[RTKDCMB]

No, sorry. I mentioned it in passing and everyone jumped on it. I have said where you can find it. It doesn't need to be shown on an Internet forum. As I said, I am sorry I mentioned it.

That's alright I figured it out without looking up the form, the tracheotomy remark nailed it for me, I'm a bit slow today.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

What would be missing from that arsenal? Striking? If the Judoka dominated with throws, chokes, holds, and arm locks, why would striking make a difference?

Striking is one of the things that Jujutsu does that Judo does not. So you're saying that striking doesn't make a difference? Your saying that the other techniques used in Jujutsu don't make a difference?

Furthermore, why would the Tokyo police department purposely stack the deck in favor of Judo when they were attempting to find the best school to teach their officers?

Who said they did?

And this is relevant how exactly?

It is very relevant. That's why I posted it.

Except it wasn't in Judo's venue, it was a third party venue that set up the tournament. If you wish to argue that Kano somehow set up the tournament so that his new art could gain notoriety, you'd have to provide some evidence.

A third party may have hosted the event, but it was Judo's venue as is evident by the techniques that weren't allowed. I don't know why you're missing this point? It was a match where one side could do everything they've trained for against another side that could not.

There's a pretty big difference between not allowing a Bjj person to grapple, and not allowing a Jujutsuka to not gouge eyes and hit someone in the groin.

No, there really isn't. The point being that a BJJ person that isn't allowed to compete as he/she was trained to compete will be at a disadvantage against someone that can do everything they've trained for. So in regard to the articles assertion that Judo is superior to Jujutsu in a fight because it won some matches is lacking in accuracy.

Lots of things can change depending on what is allowed. A cross body mount can be quite effective...unless the person on the bottom is able to reach the person on top's groin and then crushes the testicles. That may be a game changer and is of course not allowed in a match. Getting an arm bar on someone in a match can be quite effective...unless the person pulls out an edged weapon. That may be a game changer and is of course not allowed in a match. Wrapping someone up on the ground can be quite effective...unless the person being wrapped up is able to bite or gouge or crush or otherwise use something that isn't normally allowed by the rules. Then it can be a game changer.

As one example, at our regional training center, one of the most popular courses for L.E. is Jujutsu 101 by Fred Crevello. Fred is a really nice, humble older gentleman. He is also gumby and rolls with the best of them (than are usually half his age). He'll get some folks occasionally from particular grappling styles who look at his small stature and they scoff at him. Until he wraps them up like a pretzel! But more than that, while their grappling he'll pull out a training weapon and use it. "Hey...you can't DO that' is the usual response. "Why not" he'll reply? "This is a street course and not a competition course".

In a REAL fight it boils down to one thing really, he who gets there first with the most wins. The less that limits this the better.

Anyway, it wasn't my intention to hijack this thread into a Judo vs. Jujutsu thread so apologies to the OP. I've said what I felt should be brought up on this side topic. Accept or reject as you desire. Back to the OP.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

And if you'd like to create a discussion on the Judo/Jujutsu topic in the appropriate section I'd be happy to talk with you about it there. This way the OP of this thread isn't derailed.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Nothing like that. As I said, the technique of the OP is fairly benign. I wish I had never mentioned the variation.
:asian:

With all due respect, while I normally find your posts very interesting and insightful (even if I disagree with you), but the position you're taking on this is quite frankly, unreasonable. Especially with comments like this.

Like most techniques, what makes it benign or no has more to do with the application of the technique (i.e. where and how you apply it) than it does with the technique itself. All that's "mentioned" in the op is that there is a technique that uses this part of the hand as a striking surface, followed by a question about the name of said technique (which probably varies from art to art, but in English, it's an arc hand).

A poke with a finger is fairly benign. Until you're poking your fingers into someone's eyes. A front kick with the instep is fairly benign. Until you kick full force to an opponent's testicles.

I've learned the technique; it's a part of Koryo pumsae, so all those bajillion TKD blackbelts in the Kukkiwon/WTF have learned it too.

We practiced it outside of just the learning of the form. I did a demonstration years ago where I broke a glass bottle with the technique, along with breaking one with a palm heel. We learned it as a throat strike, as well as for use against other targets. Nothing benign about it.

I'm not going to question you about whatever special technique it is that you're referring to; it sounds like the same technique, but who cares? If it's not a technique that you feel should be revealed on the internet, then it was irresponsible for you to even mention it in the first place.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Can you show me a picture of the technique against the knee? I'm not sure how that works.

I can show you that, and the wrist. These are from the Kukkiwon textbook:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

And if you'd like to create a discussion on the Judo/Jujutsu topic in the appropriate section I'd be happy to talk with you about it there. This way the OP of this thread isn't derailed.

Good idea, though in this case, the OP question has been answered, and then some!

 

[jks9199]

OK, somebody explain this to me.

Thread is about a particular hand formation for a strike. And somehow we end up with 2 or 3 pages of posts about grappling? I would swear on Bibles stacked on my dead grandmothers that there's a rule about that somewhere?

 

[drop bear]

And probably isn't a lethal attack that would necessitate a tracheotomy.

Done it a few times never even broke someone's nose with it from the bite. You don't get a huge wind up with it. But gets them off and that is the main deal.

 

[K-man]

I'm not going to question you about whatever special technique it is that you're referring to; it sounds like the same technique, but who cares? If it's not a technique that you feel should be revealed on the internet, then it was irresponsible for you to even mention it in the first place.

As I said, I made a mistake and I apologised for it.

 

[ballen0351]

As I said, I made a mistake and I apologised for it.

Its the internet your never allowed to make a mistake and it shall never be forgotten thats like rule #6

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'm not going to question you about whatever special technique it is that you're referring to; it sounds like the same technique, but who cares? If it's not a technique that you feel should be revealed on the internet, then it was irresponsible for you to even mention it in the first place.

As I said, I made a mistake and I apologised for it.

No worries, though that was really just an aside. The meat of my post was, well, pretty much everything else.

 

[Touch Of Death]

As I said, I made a mistake and I apologised for it.

Explain it to Saint Peter!:readrules

 

[K-man]

Explain it to Saint Peter!:readrules

Well your Lordship, I was chatting on the internet one day and ....
:s92:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well your Lordship, I was chatting on the internet one day and ....
:s92:

...50 random people died, all over the world, the next day.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Can you show me a picture of the technique against the knee? I'm not sure how that works.

As one of several uses, imagine a front kick coming towards you. Catch the kicking leg behind the ankle/lower calf. Now do an arc hand strike into the knee, impacting just BELOW the patella. You probably won't actually break the knee as such, but you can disrupt all the connective tissues and/or dislocate the patella. It may not be broken (fractured) but it would be broken (non-functional).

It can also be used against the inside of joints (like the elbow or wrist) as part of a controlling move.

 

[K-man]

...50 random people died, all over the world, the next day.

I'm sorry, but I didn't appreciate the power you had bestowed upon me.
:s111:

 

[Touch Of Death]

I'm sorry, but I didn't appreciate the power you had bestowed upon me.
:s111:

If you wanted that kind of power, you wouldn't be worthy.