Alternating Maces

[Les]

Originally posted by Rainman


Book 2 page 34 published in 1983 by Ed Parker. If you don't have Infinite Insights books I would suggest you purchase them they are full of the basic stuff and are the best reference material that I have seen.

Thanks for that, Rainman, the information contained on pages 33 to 36 of Infinite Insights Vol 2 is indeed very useful. (I do have the full set)

However, understanding the clock principle does not alter the fact that if you step towards 7.30 you have changed the;

Angle of Deflection
Angle of Entry
Angle of Incidence

In Alternating Maces, the technique is designed to dominate your opponents centerline. It's my feeling that if you step to 7.30 you are restricting your access to the opponents centerline.

Of course, it's only my opinion,

Les

 

[Les]

Originally posted by KenpoTess


Alternating Maces maybe a beginner technique on paper.. but I can see it would cause some major damage!

Just for fun, try inserting a right outward back-knuckle strike to the face straight after the block. (Use your opponents arm to launch this strike without any loss of momentum)

Your opponent is still coming forward from his pushing action, and this strike will cause his head to snap back, making the solar plexus an even more available target.

Les

 

[Chronuss]

To me, Alternating Maces is a center-line defense against a center-line attack; an attacker using his/her entire body mass behind their two arms. I may be wrong on this, but once the inner forearm block is executed, instead of going directly to a right neutral bow, I tend to settle into a horse stance. As soon as my right arm has checked over the oppenent's two, my body easily swivels into the right neutral bow, also giving the vertical punch a little more 'oomph.' And like Sensei Seigel said, this technique is greatly appreciated in some sparring situations, hell, he's used it me.

 

[Rob_Broad]

(front - two-hand push)

1)Standing naturally, and as your opponent attempts to push you, step back
with your left foor toward 6:00 into a right neutral bow stance (facing
12:00). Simultaneously execute a right inward block to the outside of your
opponent's left arm, while your left hand checks at your solar plexus.
(This action should turn the width of your opponent's body, and redirect
his forward momentum off center.)

2)Immediatly collapse your right arm across the top of both of your
opponent's arms (to act as checks), as you deliver a left vertical thrust
punch (tracking over your right arm) to your opponent's sternum or solar
plexus. This is done while pivoting into a right forward bow stance.
Remember, both the stance change and punch must work in sychronization
with each other in order to maximize the force of your left vertical thrust
punch. (Your opponent's reaction should cause his body to bend forward at
the waist.)

3)Immediatly convert your left punch into a check by having it shift, palm
open and down, on top of both your opponent's arms. Simultaneously have your
right hand rapidly travel inside and over your left arm as you deliver a
right outward back knuckle strike to your opponent's right temple. This
transition is done while pivoting back into a right neautral bow stance.
(The torque stemming from your stance change helps to increase the whipping
action of your right hand, and, if properly executed, should cause your
opponent's head to be driven up and back, with the possibility of his arms
flailing upward.)

4)Immediatly have your right hand snap back, and it then acts as a positional
check.

 

[WilliamTLear]

Lance,

There is nothing wrong with having pride in your roots... Kenpo is no exception. I know both of the techniques that you are talking about (Alternating Maces & Aggressive Twins), and I appreciate them both.

Frank Trejo teaches them both, because both of the techniques are valid to him, and both of them work quite well. Why dump one for the other when you can have both at the low, low cost of a little extra time spent?

In the long run... I don't care who created the technique, because effectiveness is what dictates my choices. If I can use it, I will. If I can't I will store it until I can either find a use for it later, or until I can give it to someone else who can.

Here's a scenario to point out a different thought process:
Do you use an electric can opener at home? Or a manual one? Is one better than the other? Do they both get the job done in the same amount of time? Do you have electricity all the time? What if one of your hands is broken and in a cast? Who invented them? Don't they both work? Is one messier for you than the other? Can you open the can without the can opener?

Back to Aggressive Twins:
If I had a disabled student who couldn't use one of his arms (I've met some pretty sharp disabled martial artists in my time)... I would probably teach him Aggressive twins instead of Alternating Maces. Other students would probably learn both (just in-case).

One more thing...
While it is important to develop both the hands and feet of the beginner in Kenpo... beginners are usually better with their hands. I would also endeavor to say that beginners are more prone to using their hands in a real fight than their feet... Why not condition them to better use what they already have before delving into more complex areas.

Trejo was a teacher of mine for the better part of 3-4 years... Although I like a lot of what he does... I have developed an appreciation for others as well. Keep an open mind brother. It's Kenpo.

Yours In Kenpo,
Billy Lear :asian:

P.S. What Kenpo foot maneuver do you use to evade artillery? I would revert to the basics... RUN LIKE HELL!

 

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by kenpo3631

Bill,

Why run when you can fly

I'd rather take my chances on foot... The airplane makes a bigger target, not to mention the runway it has to take off on...

Also, a chopper has to touch down and lift off... and that might be difficult to do with incoming artillary...

Back to Kenpo:
As for closing the centerline...

quote: Originally posted by kenpo3631
once again I will ask, if you close the centerline with hands, somewhere there has to be a technique that shows the same principle with the feet should there not?

Leaping Crane does. Or did I miss something?

Hasta,
Billy Lear

 

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by kenpo3631



Yeah but that works the centerline from behind your opponent. What about from the front?

I thought by kicking your opponent's leg in Leaping Crane you were controlling your opponent's width while working from a zone of obscurity... (assuming that we're on the same page) hence, closing his centerline.

I guess you need to re-ask your question, and use a little more detail than you already have, because I simply don't understand what you want.

Are you talking about cancelling your opponent's width with a kick while remaining relatively in front of him? Or... Are you simply looking for a technique that closes your opponent's centerline with a kick?

Please Explain,
Billy Lear :asian:

 

[Roland]

But I don't know why?

 

[Roland]

I hope someone here will know the why of it being replaced now.

 

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by kenpo3631



Yes there was 3 that were "originally in the Yellow Belt Curriculum.

For a better explanation click on this link.

Original System

and...

Technique Charts

I believe it replaced Aggressive Twins, but I see that neither of these are in the original curriculum.

:asian:

 

[Klondike93]

I think it can stop a hard follow through push as this is how we practice it.

Alternating Maces on the other hand was taught to me as a defense for a two hand low push and Aggressive Twins is for a two hand high push. Of the two the high push is more likely to be encountered and therefore more needed (IMO).

The block in Aggressive Twins uses torque for the block so why do you think it wouldn't work?



:asian:

 

[Klondike93]

I'm stepping back to about 5:30 and blocking before the push hits me. The side kick is hitting right behind the block.

:asian:

 

[Klondike93]

This is how it's written in the manual my instructor gave me, so it would seem I'm not stepping correctly.

1. Step back into a right neutral bow with a right thrusting inward block at or above the attackers left elbow. Your left hand covers at solar plexus level.

So I think your getting at treating this like you would Triggered Salute, where you let the push actually hit you then you act.
It makes no mention of when to step so I always assumed it was as the push came at you, after all why wait for it to hit you if you don't have to.

:asian:

 

[Klondike93]

But I would like to know what you think


:asian:

 

[Klondike93]

Thanks for all the info Doc, it helps it all make sense


:asian:

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by kenpo3631

The "original" 32's started at Orange Belt. There was no Yellow Belt until the 70's I believe it was.

Yes, you are right though Alternating Maces did replace Aggressive Twins on the technique charts.

Which leads me to my earlier question - why does Alternating Maces exist and who "originally" developed it?

:asian:

Aggresive Twins will not stop a hard follow through push. AM does and is much easier to do. The push is to height zone 2. Height zone one is (for example) parting wings. Where I train it is common for belts to come in about a year or 2. Other schools where tests occur in say 3 or four months for yellow there is no way a student with that amount of time can hit the knee shot to set up the rest of the technique. To buckle the knee A)without damaging the knee B) Dimensionally cancel with a strike to the knee graded at white is asking for problems.

Don't know who developed AM.

:asian:

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by kenpo3631



:rofl:I am going to stop right here:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Have you ever had this technique done correctly on you??? I have by first genration black belts.....I think you need to reconsider the above qoute sir:asian:

You changed the subject- WHITE BELTS not BB's. Show your proof instead of meandering around and looking for support from your so called Kenpo Gods and doing the name dropping bit. Point by point refute what I said. It is a technical forum- so far nothing technical from you.

:asian:

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Klondike93

I think it can stop a hard follow through push as this is how we practice it.

Alternating Maces on the other hand was taught to me as a defense for a two hand low push and Aggressive Twins is for a two hand high push. Of the two the high push is more likely to be encountered and therefore more needed (IMO).

The block in Aggressive Twins uses torque for the block so why do you think it wouldn't work?



:asian:

What stops forward momentum? Do you let the push initiate action or do you attack before it gets to you?


:asian:

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Klondike93

I'm stepping back to about 5:30 and blocking before the push hits me. The side kick is hitting right behind the block.

:asian:

Okay consider this, all the teks work just fine for attmepted attacks that you see before you feel. I would call that anticipation. So you are not really defending against a push. You are in the 3rd range or contact penetraition. Defend against a push and tell me what the results are. Have the push initiate action and tell me if you can cancell zones effectively without maiming your associate. If I understand you correctly the version you are doing has already been altered from the base. That is to say you are stepping off line and attacking before contact has been made from the attacker. The way I understand AT is you are defending against a push not an attempted push. That being the case what do you do when someone actually pushes you?

:asian:

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Klondike93

This is how it's written in the manual my instructor gave me, so it would seem I'm not stepping correctly.

1. Step back into a right neutral bow with a right thrusting inward block at or above the attackers left elbow. Your left hand covers at solar plexus level.

So I think your getting at treating this like you would Triggered Salute, where you let the push actually hit you then you act.
It makes no mention of when to step so I always assumed it was as the push came at you, after all why wait for it to hit you if you don't have to.

:asian:

Well, no not really. What I am saying is that is based on contact manipulation (push) instead of an attempted punch such as attacking mace which is contact penetration. The range of the technique has been altered thus eliminating a defence against an actual push. That is not in your arsenal. Two handed pushes can cancel width when done high. You can go straight back or down depending environment etc. You sure don't want to be pushed into a wall, chair, etc. knocked down or have your balance taken from you because you haven't experienced a push and learned to deal with it do you? Recognition works in many ways. Just another frame of preperation to work on and think about. This is the fourth range and it actually starts with the first tek- Delayed Sword which teaches you how to strike your way out of it... in the earlier stages.

:asian: