Horizontal or Vertical,

[teej]

Doc,

A most interesting post indeed....

If I am understanding you correctly the horizontal punch should only be used when it is at shoulder level quote]

I believe it is shoulder level or below. Many of these if you pay attention, your body will tell you the answer. Example; an outward or back elbow to the head should be executed with your palm down, while solar plexuses and below the elbow should be executed with the palm of your hand facing up. Try reversing the direction of your palm and if you listen to your body you will feel your muscles bind up, ex- if you were to do an outward elbow to the head with your palm up.

As mentioned it also has to do with the target you are hitting. While many weapons may work, the smallest weapon that fits the intended target will give you the greatest concentration of impact with the greatest results.

Take for example a side kick to the groin and for the sake of argument lets just say the the opponent is facing you square, straight on. A well executed side kick might just happen to work effectiviely. However; it is possible that with the foot sideways the force may dissipate over a greater area or the heel may hit off to the side of one thigh and the toe end of the foot may make contact with the other thigh killing a lot of the intended impact to the groin.

So for this example, a front instep kick or a back kick will fit nicely into the groin target hitting the target right on with concentrated impact producing maximum results. This is an example of weapons fitting the target better.

The verticle punch fits into the solar plex target tighter than a straight punch [horizontal fist].

I am in complete agreement with Doc's explanation too.

Yours in Kenpo, Teej

 

[Doc]

For the record: I never stated the horizaontal punch should only be executed at shoulder height.

 

[marlon]

a horizontal punch to the midsection angled downwards can do a lot to fold an opponent and move thier center behind thier limbs...better than a vertical punch. i do not find the vertical punch effective when striking downwards on an upright opponent

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Doc]

I believe I said that there is no horizontal punch in this manner.

 

[distalero]

For what it's worth: back in the day (primitive times ) the horizontal punch was described as only a training punch and never anything else, whatever sort of meaning and expostion of information was otherwise attached to it by various instructors. Just a training punch, even when it was explained that the only possible path for it to take as any sort of practical strike was as a decending punch, downward so that the first two knuckles would be the leading portion of the fist. So, no big mystery, just "If you use this, you have to punch down, like this".

The vertical punch was promoted as the punch to use when the path was horizontal to the ground and possibly at a slight angle upwards. Again, no big mystery, just the attempt to hit with the stronger/larger knuckles. Training punches were done in the horse stance or in simple training step through punches, and of course in the respective forms, and vertical punches done in the stance shifting "motion" of motion Kenpo techniques.

Just to add: rightly or wrongly, we "wise" students, back in the mists of time used to judge other styles, other practioners by this as one criterion of their training or understanding. We found it kinda laughable that an opponent would try to use the horizontal fist when sparring, etc.

 

[marlon]

I believe I said that there is no horizontal punch in this manner.

i need to re read this thread it seems
marlon

 

[Doc]

For what it's worth: back in the day (primitive times ) the horizontal punch was described as only a training punch and never anything else, whatever sort of meaning and expostion of information was otherwise attached to it by various instructors. Just a training punch, even when it was explained that the only possible path for it to take as any sort of practical strike was as a decending punch, downward so that the first two knuckles would be the leading portion of the fist. So, no big mystery, just "If you use this, you have to punch down, like this".

The vertical punch was promoted as the punch to use when the path was horizontal to the ground and possibly at a slight angle upwards. Again, no big mystery, just the attempt to hit with the stronger/larger knuckles. Training punches were done in the horse stance or in simple training step through punches, and of course in the respective forms, and vertical punches done in the stance shifting "motion" of motion Kenpo techniques.

Just to add: rightly or wrongly, we "wise" students, back in the mists of time used to judge other styles, other practioners by this as one criterion of their training or understanding. We found it kinda laughable that an opponent would try to use the horizontal fist when sparring, etc.

BINGO! The punch was utilized from a horse stance by the Chinese to train the follow through of the functional vertical punch without striking an object. Like many other aspects of the Chinese Arts, the Okinawan's and subsequently Japanese misinterpreted or misunderstood its purpose. Originally because Karate-do was without physical contact or application function and consisted only of kata, it was appropriate.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

Science aside, I think it's a matter of taste. I can hit way harder with a vertical fist than a horizontal one and faster too. I think palm heels are great but the wrist or palm can break too. As for body targets, I like the nakataka ippon ken (middle knuckle out half a digit) to narrow surface area, especially rib shots (not in sparring though...).

 

[JamesB]

For what it's worth: back in the day (primitive times ) the horizontal punch was described as only a training punch and never anything else, whatever sort of meaning and expostion of information was otherwise attached to it by various instructors. Just a training punch, even when it was explained that the only possible path for it to take as any sort of practical strike was as a decending punch, downward so that the first two knuckles would be the leading portion of the fist. So, no big mystery, just "If you use this, you have to punch down, like this".

The vertical punch was promoted as the punch to use when the path was horizontal to the ground and possibly at a slight angle upwards. Again, no big mystery, just the attempt to hit with the stronger/larger knuckles. Training punches were done in the horse stance or in simple training step through punches, and of course in the respective forms, and vertical punches done in the stance shifting "motion" of motion Kenpo techniques.

Just to add: rightly or wrongly, we "wise" students, back in the mists of time used to judge other styles, other practioners by this as one criterion of their training or understanding. We found it kinda laughable that an opponent would try to use the horizontal fist when sparring, etc.

BINGO! The punch was utilized from a horse stance by the Chinese to train the follow through of the functional vertical punch without striking an object. Like many other aspects of the Chinese Arts, the Okinawan's and subsequently Japanese misinterpreted or misunderstood its purpose. Originally because Karate-do was without physical contact or application function and consisted only of kata, it was appropriate.

Thankyou distalero and Doc, I think I'm finally seeing the significance of the Horizontal 'punch' - a most useful explanation indeed

 

[teej]

BINGO! The punch was utilized from a horse stance by the Chinese to train the follow through of the functional vertical punch without striking an object. Like many other aspects of the Chinese Arts, the Okinawan's and subsequently Japanese misinterpreted or misunderstood its purpose. Originally because Karate-do was without physical contact or application function and consisted only of kata, it was appropriate.

Doc, I agree but wonder about the term "misinterpreted". Most of Western Martial arts Japanese and Okinawan training occured after WW11. Not only did the West win, we dropped atomic "weapons of mass destruction". That would be very hard for me to forget if I lived there, especially if the winning forces we now occupying my country.

With that thinking in my mind, I have often wonder if the Japanese/Okinawans taught Westerners with some "intentional" incorrect aspects to their Martial Arts? Example; what you mentioned in the quote above possibly being a misinterpretation. Have you ever felt that some things like this were taught "intentionally incorrect" to possibly giving them the upper hand should they have to fight Westerners again?

Thank you, Teej

 

[Doc]

Doc, I agree but wonder about the term "misinterpreted". Most of Western Martial arts Japanese and Okinawan training occured after WW11. Not only did the West win, we dropped atomic "weapons of mass destruction". That would be very hard for me to forget if I lived there, especially if the winning forces we now occupying my country.

With that thinking in my mind, I have often wonder if the Japanese/Okinawans taught Westerners with some "intentional" incorrect aspects to their Martial Arts? Example; what you mentioned in the quote above possibly being a misinterpretation. Have you ever felt that some things like this were taught "intentionally incorrect" to possibly giving them the upper hand should they have to fight Westerners again?

Thank you, Teej

Your thoughts have been echoed by others as well. I've been around long enough to see guys in the military get a black belt in the exact length of time they were stationed in country, after some hefty American dollars were paid. All they learned was how to "punch" and kick. Black Belts awarded in less than a year was very common with the average time being about 6 months.

But, the horizontal punch is universally seen in all facets of the Japanese and Okinawan arts as a staple of their training, especially in makiwara training and "basics" from a kiba dachi horse stance. This leads to the whole idea of a "training" mechanism misused or misinterpretated in application. Not unusual at all. Take the "mae geri" front kick, much like the "yoko geri" knife edge side kick as well, neither really exists in the Chinese Arts, so where did they come from? The most likely answers are misinterpretation, or an unknowledgeable "improvement."

 

[marlon]

I believe I said that there is no horizontal punch in this manner.

Just to be clear our 'horizontal punch strikes with the 2 larger knuckles in a position inbetween a back 2 knuckle and a vertical punch and rotates on contact. Are you saying this punch does not exist as a downward strike that can push the opponent's center backwards? Again i am just clarifying in order to understand...or are you saying that this motion is not called a horizontal punch

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[Jdokan]

Here is what I would say is the general rule: A 'vertical' punch is an intermediate range attack at height below about the armpit line. And a 'horizontal' punch is the longest range of punch, used for heights above that line. And it's a rule I rarely find reason to break.

If you dissect the "corkscrew" punch you will actually find both those punches in there, executed at their proper range and height. But myself, I would avoid striking the face with a punch.

The exception for the horizontal (front punch)would be striking downward to the pelvic triangle...Or using the the thrust to the nose in a rolling type stike to knock the face downwards...Otherwise makes sense to me......

 

[Doc]

A "horizontal punch" in anatomical terms does not exist under any of the beforementioned circumstances, only the hyper-extension of the vertical punch. Beyond the follow through, it serves as a "brace" of the action, not an actual punch regardless of height. It does however, lose its ability to "brace" at angles that approximates anything in between the 90-degree angle forward of the shoulder when standing errect, to the 45-degree angle upwards. Human anatomical structure is significantly angle dependent in most cases.

The actual "horizontal punch," anatomically exist when the hand travels nearly parallel with the torso. It too includes the vertical in its extension, however in this instance the 'horizontal' retains its efficacy through the entire mechanical movement, as well as the 'bracng' action.

This punch exists in two of the forms of the commercial basic forms set, and is one of many applications in motion-kenpo that is absolutely correct once anatomically decoded for application.