Kenpo VS Krav Maga?

[Doc]

just trying to keep climbing, keep my feet on the stairs... it's dark but thanks for letting me borrow your flashlight

Stop pushin' willya! I going as fast as I can, and I can't see what's comin'.

 

[teej]

Krav Maga does not have anything in it that we do not have in Kenpo. So what is the difference? Presentation.

The "techniques" are a teaching model for teaching the body motion and only that. Yes, under the ideal situation the techniques can work as taught from point A-Z, or first taught move through the last move, but then again every thing taught regardless of the art can work under in the correct situation.

Krav Maga is a lot of drill training. Kenpo should also have a lot of drill training but a lot of instructors out there are stuck in the "technique" mode of teaching. You can find every strike taught in Krav Maga in Kenpo buried in one of our techniques somewhere.

I'll finish with this example. A friend of mine in Ireland studies EP Kenpo 2 days a week and a Krav Maga type of combat fighting 2 other days per week. He asked me about the Kenpo technique Locked Wing. He told me that after the initial stepping back and hitting the opponent with the elbow in his face, he said he would not probably do the rest of locked wing. He said he would [from his other combat training class] hammer fist the opponent into submission.

So my response was go ahead! No one said he can't do that. It is possible after a properly placed elbow strike the attack may be over. No where in my kenpo teaching was I ever taught that on the street when attacked I had to do Locked Wing from the first move through the last move. You do what ever you have to to surive.

Again, the techniques are strictly a teaching model to teach the students body mechanics and to develope the students body weapons and foot work. The key is that the Krav Maga teaching method of spontaneous reaction drills has left a lot of Kenpo schools. Not all Kenpo schools, but apparently a lot of them. Again, Krav Maga does not have anything in it as far as weapons that I have seen that we do not already in EP kenpo.

Teej

 

[shihansmurf]

Krav Maga does not have anything in it that we do not have in Kenpo. So what is the difference? Presentation Teej

Outstanding point. KM strips down the material and internalizes the basics much better than most kenpo schools that I have been to. Something to that.

The key is that the Krav Maga teaching method of spontaneous reaction drills has left a lot of Kenpo schools.

What sort of drills do you use in your school? Would you mind posting a write up of some of them? I am always looking to improve my class structure and this sounds useful.

Thanks
Mark

 

[girlbug2]

Speaking as a level one KM student and a greenbelt American Kenpo student, I will basically second Teej's post above.

My Kenpo sensei told us that in a real life self defense situation, most people will not consciously perform a complete technique from start to finish, they will just react and ad lib with a mixup of what they learned from technique training. Likewise, Krav Maga has taught me several things in only 3 months time that suspiciously resemble American Kenpo, but with their own twists, and the instructors are quick to point out that you should do whatever works and that there is no "right" or "wrong" way to finish off -- as long as your first few moves are done effectively.

So far, what I'm getting in comparing the two systems is that AK seeks to get the attacker down on the ground and well incapacitated before the martial artist backs off and then runs or whatever. KM doesn't necessarily aim to get the attacker on the ground or completely incapacitated, just to get the attacker foiled and to back off long enough to buy time so the martial artist can flee. Then again I am only a Level One, maybe at the higher levels it is different.

In any case, formality aside, I see them both as more alike than different in the end.

 

[Doc]

Speaking as a level one KM student and a greenbelt American Kenpo student, I will basically second Teej's post above.

My Kenpo sensei told us that in a real life self defense situation, most people will not consciously perform a complete technique from start to finish, they will just react and ad lib with a mixup of what they learned from technique training. Likewise, Krav Maga has taught me several things in only 3 months time that suspiciously resemble American Kenpo, but with their own twists, and the instructors are quick to point out that you should do whatever works and that there is no "right" or "wrong" way to finish off -- as long as your first few moves are done effectively.

So far, what I'm getting in comparing the two systems is that AK seeks to get the attacker down on the ground and well incapacitated before the martial artist backs off and then runs or whatever. KM doesn't necessarily aim to get the attacker on the ground or completely incapacitated, just to get the attacker foiled and to back off long enough to buy time so the martial artist can flee. Then again I am only a Level One, maybe at the higher levels it is different.

In any case, formality aside, I see them both as more alike than different in the end.

That speaks volumes of your experience in the two with those that teach.

 

[teej]

Not to get off the subject and not to start any arguments, I would like to post a very reliable opinion concerning Krav Maga taught in the US.

I know a man that travels atleast twice if not more per year to Israel. Besides being a Rabbi, he is a Kali instructor. He told me that the Krav Maga taught in the US is not the same Krav Maga taught and practiced in Israel. He stated that the US versions being taught are commercialized versions of what is being taught to Israels'.

Don't ask me to elaborate. You'll have to talk to someone who has seen both for an answer. This is just a statement to get you thinking.

Teej

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Not to get off the subject and not to start any arguments, I would like to post a very reliable opinion concerning Krav Maga taught in the US.

I know a man that travels atleast twice if not more per year to Israel. Besides being a Rabbi, he is a Kali instructor. He told me that the Krav Maga taught in the US is not the same Krav Maga taught and practiced in Israel. He stated that the US versions being taught are commercialized versions of what is being taught to Israels'.

Don't ask me to elaborate. You'll have to talk to someone who has seen both for an answer. This is just a statement to get you thinking.

Teej

One of my ex-wifes best friends is Israeli, living here in the US. She did her stint in the service over there. Her BROTHER is special forces in Israel, and comes over often to visit and see the baby. HHe and I have had some great backyard sessions going over kenpo vs. krav, and I can asuure you that the version being trained in "over there" is substantially different than what's available in the U.S. phone book.

Interestingly, we've each picked up some great stuff from the other; started out somewhat antagonistic, and ended with us becoming the best of friends, and exchanging e-mails, notes, and ideas on a regular basis.

Scary guy, but you should see him with his nieces and nephews...melts like a little softy.

 

[Doc]

One of my ex-wifes best friends is Israeli, living here in the US. She did her stint in the service over there. Her BROTHER is special forces in Israel, and comes over often to visit and see the baby. HHe and I have had some great backyard sessions going over kenpo vs. krav, and I can asuure you that the version being trained in "over there" is substantially different than what's available in the U.S. phone book.

Interestingly, we've each picked up some great stuff from the other; started out somewhat antagonistic, and ended with us becoming the best of friends, and exchanging e-mails, notes, and ideas on a regular basis.

Scary guy, but you should see him with his nieces and nephews...melts like a little softy.

I too have come in contact with people from there in "the business," and they all say the same thing. Night and day. Real Krav has everything in it, including firearms instruction, and covert hand-to-hand combat techniques.

It is my understanding that commercially available Krav depends heavily upon the background of whomever they get to teach. So, some Krav looks like Kenpo, some like JKD, and still others look like TKD. I went to one school and they were teaching students to kick guns and knives out of an attackers hands.

I mean after all, you don't think a whole bunch of Israeli Special Forces guys just left Isreal and came over to the U.S. to bring their expertise to teach Krav Maga all at once do you? One "agent" told me that if you counted all of the guys teaching Krav Maga in the U.S., the number would probably exceed the whole of Israeli Special Forces. So, where did all of these "experts" come from?

 

[teej]

I too have come in contact with people from there in "the business," and they all say the same thing. Night and day. Real Krav has everything in it, including firearms instruction, and covert hand-to-hand combat techniques.

It is my understanding that commercially available Krav depends heavily upon the background of whomever they get to teach. So, some Krav looks like Kenpo, some like JKD, and still others look like TKD. I went to one school and they were teaching students to kick guns and knives out of an attackers hands.

I mean after all, you don't think a whole bunch of Israeli Special Forces guys just left Isreal and came over to the U.S. to bring their expertise to teach Krav Maga all at once do you? One "agent" told me that if you counted all of the guys teaching Krav Maga in the U.S., the number would probably exceed the whole of Israeli Special Forces. So, where did all of these "experts" come from?

The Rabbi I know that frequently travels over has the opinion that their knife stuff is outdated. [he is a kali instructor] so when he is there, he trains with their special forces specifically knife stuff.

And they do have alot of different backgrounds that they train with. I just heard from another instructor that went over a group had been training in Brazilian Jui-jitsu. So this American instructor had their best student come out and had another student attack him. The 1st guy did and perfect BJ take down and went for a submission. While he was doing this, the American instructor had all the other students attack him. The student was overwhelmed and would have died in combat. Then the American instructor found out that these guys never trained with their gear on! [do you guys know that American soldiers vest with kevlar weighs "45" lbs.!!! Not including their other gear, supplies or ammo!} Try grappling with this stuff on. Grappling has it's merits, but you have to train how you will be fighting. Now I don't wear Kevlar vests, but our troops do and anyone who does needs to train with their gear. Kenpo guys keep in mind that Mr. Parker had a background in Judo, but in studying kenpo, training in and teaching kenpo, his concern was dealing with multiple opponents.

Again, you can take the Krav Maga type drills and add them to your kenpo classes and build them around whatever lesson you are working on that week. Maybe Doc would consider sharing what classes, or class drills were like before the commercialized Kenpo came to being??

As for all the different types of Krav Maga instructors in this country? Hasn't that same thing happened to American Kenpo? Young instructors, I don't mean in age, out there teaching and changing things but don't know why or have an understanding as to why Mr. Parker was doing things a certain way. Isn't that why kenpo looks different all over the US? Isn't that why you can find kenpo black belts enter and KENPO forms division at a tournament and do Kenpo form 4, he adds flying spinning kicks and splits and does not understand why he did not place or scored badly in a kenpo division. [wow, how did I get going on this?]

Bottom line, Krav Maga has its merits as all arts do. Does Krav Maga do anything EP Kenpo does not? No. All of us can break our kenpo basics down and make our classes look like Krav Maga. I think it all comes down to "a fight is a fight is just a fight". My heart just happens to belong to kenpo.
Teej

 

[silvestre]

hi

AMERICAN KENPO RULES