‘aliveness’ in martial arts training

[Dark]

Dark: How is a barfight neither a streetfight or self defense? If resistance sparring doesn't prepare one for self defense what kind of job does compliant sparring do? Training with resistance gives you a method to gauge your actual abilities, something that can't be done in a scripted or compliant setting.

Self-defense: A reaction to a one time criminal act against your person. Training to survive a rape or a mugging. for example.

A bar brawl: A fight in a bar, a semi-controlled eviroment generally for ego or to attract attention. A bar braw is a one time event, that usually comes about when one person seeks to assume the dominant alpha-role.

A street fight: Streetfighting is a continual cycle/life style of violence. Streetfighters like hurting others and maintaining dominance through fear. Street fighting is a life style, not an event.

See the differences suttle but, there?

Another thing is the training with resistance. You do realize in one step and three step drills a purpose is to toughen the arns and legs against blocks, which are actually defensive strikes. Kata is an exercise and a guide book, thats why at certain levels sparring is a go. Bare in mind, pads were not invented until the 60s. Crawl, walk, run, then run really far really fast...

I agree a resistance is a good and needed skill in training, but it doesn't make what your doing alive, and I've read the article but there are allot of points in that article then just resistant training, like physical ability and adaptability. Sparring doesn't give you any idea of your true ability. In the military we play laser tage war games with blank rounds, explosive sims and so forth. When that soldier who excells on the mock-battlefield sees his buddies get blow up of shot that fictional image of what war should be and what war is colide.
The only real test is a real fight, being mugged, assaulted, raped and so forth. No system can prepare you for that, there is more to the real world then what you may or may not learn in the dojo. I also have personally seen TMAs eat most tournament fighters alive in the street. It has nothing to with training, but training the will of the man...

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Question: So what happens when a "street fighter" attacks an innocent bystander in a bar? is it self defense, a bar brawl or a street fight?

Answer: all of the above.

Your given definitions (and I mean YOUR definitions as they are not absolute) are a bit loose and have A TON of over lap. But still, I think I get the point you're trying to convey.

 

[Robert Lee]

Resistive training can come at different levels. Light resistance helps you to better learn to enforce your training. Increased resistance takes it 1 step further gathering that adjustments you may need to take to make certion things work. Then heavy resistances goes to show if you can still continue getting something working or do you need to change up or drop that certion tool. All alive does is check the training to give it a tesed balance. Some one saying this will work or doing it with a static partener does not test if it will work for you. And it helps you develop a continued way of gettting something to work. Not testing means you never know until it comes into play. Well finding out then is not a good time to find that it does not work so well for you.. Just trying to get oof a joint manuver on a retracting hand takes a different timing. You do not have to go full resistive training to get the idea of how to get something off. But at least A light and medium resistance is needed. Fighting is that. You never know what will come your way. But being better prepared to face something is better then not being prepared to really face full resistive live motion of a no holds bared fight. Much less some kind of weapons defence.

 

[MardiGras Bandit]

I agree a resistance is a good and needed skill in training, but it doesn't make what your doing alive, and I've read the article but there are allot of points in that article then just resistant training, like physical ability and adaptability. Sparring doesn't give you any idea of your true ability. In the military we play laser tage war games with blank rounds, explosive sims and so forth. When that soldier who excells on the mock-battlefield sees his buddies get blow up of shot that fictional image of what war should be and what war is colide.
The only real test is a real fight, being mugged, assaulted, raped and so forth. No system can prepare you for that, there is more to the real world then what you may or may not learn in the dojo. I also have personally seen TMAs eat most tournament fighters alive in the street. It has nothing to with training, but training the will of the man...

How do you train the will of man if that man has no real experience to gauge how he can perform against a resisting opponent? Waiting untill your attacked to test yourself is worse than idiotic, it's suicidal. Resistance sparring is the only way to acurately test your abilities outside of an actual self defense situation. Resistance training also developes will power because it trains you to be comfortable while facing force. Does that mean you will be fully comfortable in an attack? Of course not, but chances are you will be a hell of a lot more comfortable then someone who never engaged in resistance training.

Look at the example of military training you gave. Yes, it does not fully recreate a combat enviroment, but would you prefer to go into combat without having done simulated wargames to learn the military principles involved?

One last thing. How is it that every guy who knocks aliveness or mma has a story about seeing tournament fighters getting rocked by TMAs. How do you even know they were tournament fighters? Heres a tip; just because someone wheres Tap Out gear doesn't mean they are a UFC fighter. Now if they were wearing Xyience gear...

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Resistive training can come at different levels. Light resistance helps you to better learn to enforce your training. Increased resistance takes it 1 step further gathering that adjustments you may need to take to make certion things work. Then heavy resistances goes to show if you can still continue getting something working or do you need to change up or drop that certion tool. All alive does is check the training to give it a tesed balance. Some one saying this will work or doing it with a static partener does not test if it will work for you. And it helps you develop a continued way of gettting something to work. Not testing means you never know until it comes into play. Well finding out then is not a good time to find that it does not work so well for you.. Just trying to get oof a joint manuver on a retracting hand takes a different timing. You do not have to go full resistive training to get the idea of how to get something off. But at least A light and medium resistance is needed. Fighting is that. You never know what will come your way. But being better prepared to face something is better then not being prepared to really face full resistive live motion of a no holds bared fight. Much less some kind of weapons defence.

Robert: The point of all this is that you will be completely unprepared for a real encounter if all you do is practice Kata and prearranged drills without contact. You will be much better prepared if you train with a partner who is fighting back with a reasonable amount of contact/force.

 

[Dark]

How do you train the will of man if that man has no real experience to gauge how he can perform against a resisting opponent? Waiting untill your attacked to test yourself is worse than idiotic, it's suicidal. Resistance sparring is the only way to acurately test your abilities outside of an actual self defense situation. Resistance training also developes will power because it trains you to be comfortable while facing force. Does that mean you will be fully comfortable in an attack? Of course not, but chances are you will be a hell of a lot more comfortable then someone who never engaged in resistance training.

How do you train the will of man who who has never been in a real fight? You can spar all you want, but that isn't a real fight and that asuption can get you killed. I don't disagree with you that resistance is needed for complete training, however it is not the only thing needed.

Traditional Karate used resistance training, it's got allot watered down of the last 20 years but sparring was a part of it. The reason you don't hear allot about this is because there is another element added. Philosophy and pyschology, and to that end it allows for desculation techniques, situational awareness and an element of

Look at the example of military training you gave. Yes, it does not fully recreate a combat enviroment, but would you prefer to go into combat without having done simulated wargames to learn the military principles involved?

Yes and no... Go into war unprepared, of course not. But expect that training to fully prepare me. I'd rather go off into battle unprepared. Playing war games isn't war, stepping onto a mat is massively different from step up to a real world situation.

One last thing. How is it that every guy who knocks aliveness or mma has a story about seeing tournament fighters getting rocked by TMAs. How do you even know they were tournament fighters? Heres a tip; just because someone wheres Tap Out gear doesn't mean they are a UFC fighter. Now if they were wearing Xyience gear...

Try because he got stomp after a 2ID BJJ tournament for talking trash to TKD guy. Also commercialized TMA aren't TMAs, they are excuses to get money and thats a completely different argument. The name Karate doesn't make something a TMA, and a if you research the history allot of those MA didn't fight tournaments of experience they fought in street fights. Origional TKD and origional shotokan are completely different now then say 20 years ago...

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

How do you train the will of man who who has never been in a real fight? You can spar all you want, but that isn't a real fight and that asuption can get you killed. I don't disagree with you that resistance is needed for complete training, however it is not the only thing needed.

Traditional Karate used resistance training, it's got allot watered down of the last 20 years but sparring was a part of it. The reason you don't hear allot about this is because there is another element added. Philosophy and pyschology, and to that end it allows for desculation techniques, situational awareness and an element of



Yes and no... Go into war unprepared, of course not. But expect that training to fully prepare me. I'd rather go off into battle unprepared. Playing war games isn't war, stepping onto a mat is massively different from step up to a real world situation.



Try because he got stomp after a 2ID BJJ tournament for talking trash to TKD guy. Also commercialized TMA aren't TMAs, they are excuses to get money and thats a completely different argument. The name Karate doesn't make something a TMA, and a if you research the history allot of those MA didn't fight tournaments of experience they fought in street fights. Origional TKD and origional shotokan are completely different now then say 20 years ago...

Sorry, but they are not different now than 20 years ago. Now we just know that they weren't as good 20 years ago as we thought they were.

 

[HKphooey]

Aliveness does not mean you throw out rules. Aliveness does not mean you go all out with no control.

As an ex-bouncer in my college days, many attackers are "going all out with no control". So for some martial artists, to limit all out training (LEO, Military, Bouncers) would be ineffective training.

As for so other thoughts...
Yes resistance is a start, but it must also be realistic in nature. When someone in high, drunk or highly agressive they usually do not have (what we would call) great fighting skills. They are all ove the place and hard to defend against. When I watch two trained martial artists (in the same style especially) pratice SD, they tend to know each others techniques and methods of striking. We need to train with martial artist from other styles to truely add spontaniety. How spontaneous is working out with the same fellow students day after day.

There are some awesome points being brought up in this thread.

 

[Andrew Green]

Aliveness does not mean you throw out rules. Aliveness does not mean you go all out with no control.

As an ex-bouncer in my college days, many attackers are "going all out with no control". So for some martial artists, to limit all out training (LEO, Military, Bouncers) would be ineffective training.

You're right, all depends on how far you want to take it. Training "alive" can be done with a fair deal of control, and lots of dangerous techniques removed, or not.

All depends on what a person's interests are. Not everyone is going to get in a cage, and not everyone has too. But "alive" training is somethings anyone can do, to differing levels of intensity.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

As an ex-bouncer in my college days, many attackers are "going all out with no control". So for some martial artists, to limit all out training (LEO, Military, Bouncers) would be ineffective training.

As for so other thoughts...
Yes resistance is a start, but it must also be realistic in nature. When someone in high, drunk or highly agressive they usually do not have (what we would call) great fighting skills. They are all ove the place and hard to defend against. When I watch two trained martial artists (in the same style especially) pratice SD, they tend to know each others techniques and methods of striking. We need to train with martial artist from other styles to truely add spontaniety. How spontaneous is working out with the same fellow students day after day.

There are some awesome points being brought up in this thread.

Yes. Intensity, contact, realism should all be cranked up. But you still have rules so that you don't literally get killed during practice and so you live to train another day.

Don't confuse "aliveness" with "intesity" You can train dead patterns very intensly -- just watch the Kenpo "Tip of the Week" on Larry Tatum's site. He smacks the heck out of his students -- while they stand there. Very intense, but not very alive. You can also train alive without any intensity. We used to call that slap-boxing. To really become proficient, aliveness and intensity must be combined.

 

[Dark]

Sorry, but they are not different now than 20 years ago. Now we just know that they weren't as good 20 years ago as we thought they were.

No martial arts especially in america have been watered down, sports commisions owns the rights to most martial arts. Which has lessoned the impact of martial arts as a military science.

I admit there is allot of BS in martial arts today, but it comes from both sides. The major arguement here seems to be that, effectiveness and aliveness come about through sparring.

But I still suggest aliveness is more then resistance its flexibility and adaptablity. When things are alive they grow, they evolve and they mature. When somehting is dead, it can still resist you even if it stagnates, and eventually rots away.

 

[MardiGras Bandit]

Traditional Karate used resistance training, it's got allot watered down of the last 20 years but sparring was a part of it. The reason you don't hear allot about this is because there is another element added. Philosophy and pyschology, and to that end it allows for desculation techniques, situational awareness and an element of
Try because he got stomp after a 2ID BJJ tournament for talking trash to TKD guy. Also commercialized TMA aren't TMAs, they are excuses to get money and thats a completely different argument. The name Karate doesn't make something a TMA, and a if you research the history allot of those MA didn't fight tournaments of experience they fought in street fights. Origional TKD and origional shotokan are completely different now then say 20 years ago...

First off, a BJJ competitior is a far cry from a tournament fighter. I've been in a fair share of grappling tourneys, and would never claim to be a fighter because of it.

Second, I've seen videos of Tiger Shulman tourneys from 10-15 years ago that were perfectly legit fights and examples of resistance sparring. I'll agree it's been watered down a lot since then. I've also read countless stories of deadly martial arts streetfights that took place "back in the day". Nine out of ten times those stories turn out to be either exagerated to a comic degree, or completely false.

Yes and no... Go into war unprepared, of course not. But expect that training to fully prepare me. I'd rather go off into battle unprepared. Playing war games isn't war, stepping onto a mat is massively different from step up to a real world situation.

That sums up much of the point of aliveness training. Many MAs are convinced they are completely prepared for a conflict, but having never trained against a resisting opponent they have absolutely no basis for that belief.

That doesn't mean that training with resistance ensures a person will be prepared for an attack. That isn't the point and no one claims that. It will ensure that a person is best prepared for such a situation both phisically and mentally and is armed with the best possible knowledge of their capabilities. In a worst case scenario this is something more valuable then any situational awareness or dead drill training can hope to be.

 

[Dark]

Yes. Intensity, contact, realism should all be cranked up. But you still have rules so that you don't literally get killed during practice and so you live to train another day.

Don't confuse "aliveness" with "intesity" You can train dead patterns very intensly -- just watch the Kenpo "Tip of the Week" on Larry Tatum's site. He smacks the heck out of his students -- while they stand there. Very intense, but not very alive. You can also train alive without any intensity. We used to call that slap-boxing. To really become proficient, aliveness and intensity must be combined.

Those fixed patterns are baby steps to the real art form... How can you compare a toddler learning to walk to Track & Field Medalist?

 

[Robert Lee]

Robert: The point of all this is that you will be completely unprepared for a real encounter if all you do is practice Kata and prearranged drills without contact. You will be much better prepared if you train with a partner who is fighting back with a reasonable amount of contact/force.

I agree very much That a person needs to take the training to a resitive level to test the tools. No way of knowing how they work until they are applied at a higher level of doing.

 

[Dark]

That sums up much of the point of aliveness training. Many MAs are convinced they are completely prepared for a conflict, but having never trained against a resisting opponent they have absolutely no basis for that belief.

That doesn't mean that training with resistance ensures a person will be prepared for an attack. That isn't the point and no one claims that. It will ensure that a person is best prepared for such a situation both phisically and mentally and is armed with the best possible knowledge of their capabilities. In a worst case scenario this is something more valuable then any situational awareness or dead drill training can hope to be.

Bandit: You not getting my point... Restance is needed I agree 100% but it doesn't end there. But training in against a resisting opponent you are familiar with and whom you've learned to read their body language is a far out cry from a crack addict with knife in a parking lot.

Sparring isn't preparation to anything but sparring. How do you prepare for blind attacks? How do you prepare for being jumped or multiple opponents? All battles whether they be between counties or individuals come down to endurance, and how far are you willing to go.

The fact that you don't seem to know the purpose of kata is evident; forms are baby steps to full sprint and not the run itself...

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Bandit: You not getting my point... Restance is needed I agree 100% but it doesn't end there. But training in against a resisting opponent you are familiar with and whom you've learned to read their body language is a far out cry from a crack addict with knife in a parking lot.

Sparring isn't preparation to anything but sparring. How do you prepare for blind attacks? How do you prepare for being jumped or multiple opponents? All battles whether they be between counties or individuals come down to endurance, and how far are you willing to go.

The fact that you don't seem to know the purpose of kata is evident; forms are baby steps to full sprint and not the run itself...

OK, so you train with strange crack addicts in a parking lot? I doubt it. Look, we all know that "on the street" there are no rules and that you are likely to get surprised. The question is how do you best prepare for it.

So how do you prepare for blind attacks and multiple opponents? Do you say "OK stand there and somebody will come up from behind and grab your shoulder and then you will spin around, kick, then punch"? No. You have the person grab you from behind, you escape/evade, then you spar. Sparring is a great way to build up endurance.

Trust me, I know the purpose of Kata. And if you want to do analogies about baby steps, then let's do it: How do you teach a baby to walk? Do you tell him to take 3 steps left, turn around, take 3 steps right, face left, take 3 steps forward...? No, you just let the baby walk.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

No martial arts especially in america have been watered down, sports commisions owns the rights to most martial arts. Which has lessoned the impact of martial arts as a military science.

I admit there is allot of BS in martial arts today, but it comes from both sides. The major arguement here seems to be that, effectiveness and aliveness come about through sparring.

But I still suggest aliveness is more then resistance its flexibility and adaptablity. When things are alive they grow, they evolve and they mature. When somehting is dead, it can still resist you even if it stagnates, and eventually rots away.

No. Martial arts have not been watered down. They have actually improved as a result of competitions like the UFC and the incorporation of new training methods and techniques. And, 20 years ago there may have been 100,000 serious martial artists in the US and 900,000 wannabes. Well, now there are probably more serious martial artists -- and they are much better than those of 20 years ago. The difference is that now there are probably 2 million wannabes.

 

[lonecoyote]

And its a hell of a marketing concept! I would like to find a term or coin a phrase like aliveness, maybe undeadness, or perhaps resilivance. Relevant moment technique, maybe. Help me out people. Undeadness is good, though. If you aren't training w/undeadness you are out to lunch buddy!

 

[HKphooey]

Don't confuse "aliveness" with "intesity" You can train dead patterns very intensly -- just watch the Kenpo "Tip of the Week" on Larry Tatum's site. He smacks the heck out of his students -- while they stand there. Very intense, but not very alive. You can also train alive without any intensity. We used to call that slap-boxing. To really become proficient, aliveness and intensity must be combined.

When it come to traing I do not confuse the two. If it is my own training, I take the intensity to the level my training part will go. As for students, we have to run a school and most of own students take the arts for other reasons and have to got to work or school the next day. Watch any video clip and you will be able to pick a dozen issues with it. It's called "Monday morning QB", Wether it is Tatum, Palanzo, Planas, Chapel, and so on, they are working out with their own students. That was exactly my point. How can you train for reality with same people over and over in the same style? Not so spontaneous.

But as always I love to hear another martial artist's side (especially from Kenpo). That is what it all about - variations, variations, adaptation, variation!

 

[Robert Lee]

You go to the boxing gym. you start out training the hands and learning to move bang the heavy bag. The speed bag. learn to shadow box. But sometime you have to glove up get in the ring and start testing out what you have been trying learn. Only there do you reallylearn to apply distance timeing and such. Now Kata it teachs several aspects of youre training needs. Bunki shows what you wree working in the kata both offence and defence motion.kisokumite gives you prearranged self defence sets. jiyu kumite sparing gives you freedom to think. But when to many rules are set you do not train alot of your tools. So you start light training the different tools there is a common aspect to resistive training. its resistive. What is often for got for street use is training agins street like manuvers. The will punches the intence of the pressure the grabing of some kind of weapon be it a chair beer botle ect. But referance training gives you a chance. Its not like the average M/A person goes looking for trouble. As life goes you may never get in a street fight at all. BUT you train Train for the day you just might. In the mean time you become a better person because you learned to control you emtions treat people better have more patience. So by learning to fight you learned to be that better person. Far as scools it hard to find those that want to bang get in there and test the tools. You may have to have different phases of classes. BUt remember too young kids train boxing they glove up put the head gear on and go at it. And thousands do this.It is not trying to kill each other its useing enough control the right pading to safely test the method. We can not go back in time and train hours each day most people work have a family. So you train as you can some more then others. The more a person does train the better that person gets. Even those that do kata each and every day find they can use the tools better. I guess part is the training part is the time put into that training. So at least if a person does not agree with testing the method often They should be training longer and harder To push there way to a level they can perform when tested. Short cut test it long road train it hard.