RTKDCMB
Senior Master
You just haven't being paying attention.
Aikido in the MMA ring?
- Thread starter Jenna
- Start date
OP
- Thread Starter
- #142
Those are pertinent and interesting questions my friend that have also got me wondering too.. And but hey you know what.. I cannot now surely say what my OP was -must be these meds haha- though if you will tell me what would be your answer to these two questions in your experiences I will give you mine yes??
I am not by any means a MMA person and so cannot accurately say what skills makes the most efficient MMA fighter.. though from experience of sparring for kicks and laughs alone mind.. I would answer your questions like this..
..because Aikido is an wholly reactive art, in order to succeed in a mixed discipline competitive situation the whole entire dynamic would need to change from reaction to pro-active.. atemi could not be incidental or co-incidental.. would need to be deliberate and also -I believe- the ability to generate pain only through -and in direct proportion to- uke resistance to the shape of my pin or lock on him would need to be supplanted by a more aggressive seeking out of that pain.. that is how a match is won, by tapout or ko yes??
Also, Aikido has not concern for winning.. so.. I do not know what would have to happen here to succeed in MMA.. I can stop doing a technique on an opponent when they stop trying to harm me.. they dictate what have to happen.. I would need to change that in a competitive bout to beating them by over-coming them.. do you follow?? the change seem too subtle maybe to mean any thing in reality?? I do not fight to win.. I fight only to stop them fighting me.. When I start trying to win, every thing changes in me over what happen when I am free to use Aikido without external contrived desire to win.. Desire to win causes physiological change, testosterone and cortisol production to a perceived stressor which increase aggression.. check this abstract if you are a sciencey person http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090513801001003 and so physiologically my mind is not the same.. for me personally -and perhaps other Aikidoka- I am straight away on the back foot like in unfamiliar place.. does this make any sense at all???
so I do not know at all what art I would be doing then.. would not be Aikido least not as I do it.. would be indiscernible swirling in the melting pot of styles.. at best there might in MMA exist a little space for assorted Aikido techniques like many of the JJ techniques already in there and are relatable..
Aikido in MMA is only hypothetical yes? as too great an alteration in mindset and intent would have to occur that would perturb -for me any way- the whole way of doing the technique.. So I think OP is maybe me putting a question why these Aikidoka put their selves in the ring at all.. by trying to imagine what I ought to learn from being trashed in my hypothetical MMA bout etc.. what are they trying to prove? and what lesson ought they learn from a drubbing? do you follow me at all?? I absolve you if you do not haha.. what do you think? Do you think these Aikido people are coerced into asking these exact questions you have thought out?? I do not know.. I see insecurity where I see this happening.. they are worried they are vulnerable maybe and do not like their vulnerabilities laid out for them??? Interested to hear thought from your perspective.. CMA yes?? Though now I am reading all of this I am thinking you probably did not want all of my thoughts haha.. oh well thank you for your contribution and for making me think some more about stuff xx
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2014
- Messages
- 23,943
- Reaction score
- 8,690
That happens. From memory you don't do contact or something
There is no one style in MMA, fighters cherry pick the techniques that work for them from a multitude of styles. I'm not sure why so many people don't understand this.
It's MIXED martial arts, it's true many fighters have come from a single style but they haven't just kept that style they have mixed it up with stuff that works from other styles. More and more these days we don't even have people with an original style they are learning MMA as a whole.
Fighters are matched well before the fight, they then use tactics and techniques to beat their opponent, it's irrelevant what the fighters main style was to a large extent, the important part is what the style is now.
If someone who practices Aikido fancies having a fight, they will have to go the route all fighters do...train MMA.
There are Aikido techniques that work in an MMA fight as there are many other style's techniques that work, that's what we do, take techniques, not the whole style.
Are there people who do Aikido fighting in MMA, could well be but like every other MMA fighter they will be using MMA to compete. It's a very simple concept, just using techniques from other styles to meld into your fighting style yet constantly people are saying this style or that style doesn't work in MMA, well no, no style does other than MMA. Would you take Judo to a TKD competition or vice versa? Would you take a rugby player and expect him to play rugby at a cricket match? Or would you want a swimmer in a F1 race? Of course not then why expect anything other than MMA in an MMA fight? Accept MMA for what it is, MIXED MARTIAL ARTS and stop trying to put down other styles.
It's MIXED martial arts, it's true many fighters have come from a single style but they haven't just kept that style they have mixed it up with stuff that works from other styles. More and more these days we don't even have people with an original style they are learning MMA as a whole.
Fighters are matched well before the fight, they then use tactics and techniques to beat their opponent, it's irrelevant what the fighters main style was to a large extent, the important part is what the style is now.
If someone who practices Aikido fancies having a fight, they will have to go the route all fighters do...train MMA.
There are Aikido techniques that work in an MMA fight as there are many other style's techniques that work, that's what we do, take techniques, not the whole style.
Are there people who do Aikido fighting in MMA, could well be but like every other MMA fighter they will be using MMA to compete. It's a very simple concept, just using techniques from other styles to meld into your fighting style yet constantly people are saying this style or that style doesn't work in MMA, well no, no style does other than MMA. Would you take Judo to a TKD competition or vice versa? Would you take a rugby player and expect him to play rugby at a cricket match? Or would you want a swimmer in a F1 race? Of course not then why expect anything other than MMA in an MMA fight? Accept MMA for what it is, MIXED MARTIAL ARTS and stop trying to put down other styles.
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
We do plenty of sparring, punches and kicks are thrown with full speed and power but with control, it is non-contact sparring. Of course that doesn't mean we never get hit.
I've actually never seen an Aikidoka compete in MMA. Where have you seen this? Were they a pure Aikidoka or just someone who had that as part of their background?
Hanzou
Grandmaster
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2013
- Messages
- 6,770
- Reaction score
- 1,330
Why isn't it a viable match up?
What promoters are looking for isn't what fight teams are looking for, they want two fighters of equal strength and experience ( unless the promoter is doing something dodgy). Fighters might be looking for a quick end to the fight but that's the last thing promoters want. A fight that can go either way and lasting through all the rounds is the ideal. A KO at the end is also preferable but standing toe to toe bashing it out pleases the fans. Promoters want all fights to go the distance, it's a horror when they all finish early, imagine having 12 fights on the card and they all finish in the first round, that's a short evening and the paying customers aren't happy. The bar takings will be low and even if the fights were good, people pay to see the fighters go in all rounds.
So when matching firstly they look for local fighters, they bring in the most ticket sales, if you can get a 'name' that's good but most of all you want matched fighters, it's about putting bums on seats and having those seats paid for as well as bar sales. Promoting is very expensive, you aren't going to take a risk on a fight that maybe won't 'sell' to the crowd. That doesn't mean that a single style is no good it means that the crowd want to see MMA at an MMA fight night.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #150
You mean you were unable to find videos supporting the assertion on places like Sherdog maybe that Aikido-primary-art participants are not viable in mixed discipline competitive situation? I do not know where that viewpoint arises from then?
Last edited:
My opinion comes from over 16 years in MMA promoting as well as training. I never rely on videos from anywhere. I know most fighters here and certainly know the trainers, we match fighters.
It's as I said before, it doesn't matter what the 'primary art' is, everyone has to train and fight MMA if they want to compete. No one comes into the cage/ring now with just one art so actually it's irrelevant what primary art you have.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2014
- Messages
- 23,943
- Reaction score
- 8,690
Hanzou
Grandmaster
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2013
- Messages
- 6,770
- Reaction score
- 1,330
Agreed. For example, Kron Gracie, Ryan Hall, and Chris Holdsworth's primary art is Bjj, and it's pretty evident when those guys fight that they're using their jiujitsu expertise. Further, their high level of skill in their primary art can give them an advantage or disadvantage depending on who they're fighting.
Well, no it doesn't matter so much what the primary art is because they have to bring the rest of their game up to match. A fighter hoping to be successful needs to be well rounded not better at one thing than another. Of course it's obvious they are using their BJJ skills, and of course it can give them and advantage or disadvantage depending on who they are fighting, I said as much. It's one reason coaches choose opponents carefully at the start of their fighter's careers, it can make a huge different to the fight record if you pick opponents you know are weak at something your fighter is good at. Later on, if/when your fighter is getting to the top you have less choice over who they fight therefore by the time they've got to that point the fighter should have brought his lesser skills up to the standard of his primary skill.
These days though more and more people are coming straight into MMA and training the all around game, we have less single style fighters now than in the beginning, another obvious thing of course.
Where does the idea come from that Aikido skills are not applicable to the MMA context? Two places, I would say.
1) In thousands of MMA fights over the last 20+ years, we've never seen anyone apply Aikido techniques.
2) From those thousands of fights, we've developed some understanding of what sorts of techniques and tactics seem to work in that context and which do not.
From my standpoint, that's not a knock against Aikido. When I watch high-level Aikido practitioners, I can see certain skills and attributes which I think could have combative application under the right circumstances. In fact, if I had a good Aikido instructor locally who was interested in swapping Aikido lessons for BJJ lessons, I would happily trade knowledge. I just don't think that Aikido would have a lot of useful application in an MMA context.
Spinedoc
Brown Belt
Don't know about that.
I will say that the way the majority of Aikido is practiced makes it impractical for MMA. That's different than saying the techniques don't work.
Certainly here's an example, although the second example was different than the traditional udekimenage, you still had the tenkan, and the lock.....just a variation.
and that is the crux of the matter....MMA takes techniques from many different styles, it does not take the style. You don't see fighters starting the fight using karate, then moving to Judo then to MT etc that would be plain silly instead you see techniques from the different styles being used in a (hopefully!) seamless manner with technique flowing into technique. At least that's what is aimed for, not the use of styles but the techniques from styles[/QUOTE]
Yes, true, no argument here. But Ryan Hall has trained in a lot of things. And I'm sure Kron did all kinds of training with Dad even though BJJ is with-out-a-doubt his primary art.
Then look at Holly Holm. Her primary art is boxing, but she knocked out Ronda with a kick. A sweet one, too.
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2005
- Messages
- 9,930
- Reaction score
- 1,452
Friend, @Jenna -
There are a few things I have to say-just for you-some as a fellow aikidoka, though Yoshinkan, and one who has done many other things-some are just logical.
We'll start with the just logical:
MMA is a game, with tools, and rules for their use-much like lacrosse, where I could actually hit people with my stick, but couldn't hit them with it clasped between both hands....
Another example, though, that might be more apt: as a kid, I competed at skeet and trap-I was really good. Somewhere in my mom's stuff, there's a vest with patches for hitting 100,250, and 500 clay-pigeons in a row, with .28 and .410 shotguns....while I don't shoot trap or skeet much anymore (though I'll still have a go, now and then, and had to be told to stop on a cruise ship, because I was "in the zone," and trying to get a complete set of glasses, instead of just the one) I do compete with my pistols-usually,for competition, I've used my .45s...
Now, imagine I'm standing there, trying to shoot skeet or trap with a pistol-not gonna do very well against 12 year old me with an itty-bitty (literally!) shotgun, am I? Oh, I've actually shot at clay pigeons with a pistol, and done okay, but it's not a shotgun-it's not the right tool for the rules-get it?
Aikido, in some ways, is much the same way-though, and I'll address this later, it does have some training idiosyncrasies that many practitioners and instructors don't recognize the reason for. It has some tools that might be-are-used in MMA, but most of those can be found in other arts, and are universal: human beings are built the same, and some techniques, when it comes to joints, are going to look the same, whether it's catch-wrestling, BJJ, jujutsu, judo or aikido.
Anyway, aikido isn't going to give you all the tools you need for MMA...or, arguably, other things.
How much atemi do you actually practice in your dojo?
Do you even know for certain what O sensei meant when he said this?
There are a few things I have to say-just for you-some as a fellow aikidoka, though Yoshinkan, and one who has done many other things-some are just logical.
We'll start with the just logical:
MMA is a game, with tools, and rules for their use-much like lacrosse, where I could actually hit people with my stick, but couldn't hit them with it clasped between both hands....
Another example, though, that might be more apt: as a kid, I competed at skeet and trap-I was really good. Somewhere in my mom's stuff, there's a vest with patches for hitting 100,250, and 500 clay-pigeons in a row, with .28 and .410 shotguns....while I don't shoot trap or skeet much anymore (though I'll still have a go, now and then, and had to be told to stop on a cruise ship, because I was "in the zone," and trying to get a complete set of glasses, instead of just the one) I do compete with my pistols-usually,for competition, I've used my .45s...
Now, imagine I'm standing there, trying to shoot skeet or trap with a pistol-not gonna do very well against 12 year old me with an itty-bitty (literally!) shotgun, am I? Oh, I've actually shot at clay pigeons with a pistol, and done okay, but it's not a shotgun-it's not the right tool for the rules-get it?
Aikido, in some ways, is much the same way-though, and I'll address this later, it does have some training idiosyncrasies that many practitioners and instructors don't recognize the reason for. It has some tools that might be-are-used in MMA, but most of those can be found in other arts, and are universal: human beings are built the same, and some techniques, when it comes to joints, are going to look the same, whether it's catch-wrestling, BJJ, jujutsu, judo or aikido.
Anyway, aikido isn't going to give you all the tools you need for MMA...or, arguably, other things.
How much atemi do you actually practice in your dojo?
Do you even know for certain what O sensei meant when he said this?
Exactly, as Elder says MMA is a game, a competition, you train to beat your opponent and you had better had a lot of techniques you are good at in your arsenal. I am primarily a karateka but I have trained a lot of different styles to get he techniques I need/want from them. You have to train styles to see techniques, you don't just get them from watching videos.
