Aikido hate

[Tony Dismukes]

[
i think this logic is a little flawed. I'll try to explain. This guy has learned an armbar. I think it's terrible technique. But it kind of, sort of resembles an armbar.

If he sees someone on "the street" execute an armbar, according to the logic in this thread and your post, he could use that as validation that his training is sound. After all, he learned it. And it seems like he's teaching it.

I see a real problem there. Dont you?

I don't think that's an argument against the point JP3 was making. In your example, the guy in the video might see an armbar used effectively on the street and could therefore reasonably draw the conclusion that armbars can sometimes be used effectively in a street confrontation. He cannot draw the reasonable conclusion that his own armbars are any good and would ever be effective (on the street or elsewhere). For that, he would need to personally go through the sort of pressure testing which would (in his case) expose just how bad his technique is.

JP3's comment that you quoted was not (assuming I am reading him correctly) saying that "I saw this technique used in a street confrontation which looks like one I do and therefore my Aikido is sound." He was saying, "I learned this technique in Aikido. I also learned it in Hapkido. Rather than worrying about which art 'owns' the technique, I'm just saying it's part of my personal toolbox." He's not claiming that his training is validated by the success of the guy on the street.

Perhaps it's more directly to your point that JP3 might be mistaken as to whether the guy on the street was really using the same technique as he uses - just as the guy in your video might think he's doing the armbar like a BJJ guy. I suppose it's possible, but considering his background (41 years training martial arts, with dan ranks in Tomiki Aikido, Hapkido, Judo, and TKD, plus an instructor certification in Muay Thai), I'm willing to bet he's got a pretty good eye for these things.

 

[FriedRice]

I get you.. and but one thing I do not fathom and you can help me with is.. why do you.. or all of these people up in here apparently care so passionately concerning whatever people out there make whatever big talk about their Aikido whatnots??

Because in general, the essence of the Martial Arts has mostly been about which style is better. Asians in Asia have been fighting over this for a very long time. Look at all of the Kung-Fu movies. Many of their full contact tournaments, pit style vs. style for national pride to this day. Why did Rhonda Rousey get a crap-storm rained on her when she said something like how she could beat Cain Velasquez under the right condition? Or how she could beat UFC Fighter, Brian Caraway and his girlfriend Miesha Tate, one after the other on the same day.....talking trash, reaps its rewards. You hear many Tai Chi people talking about how deadly they are?

 

[Buka]

Because in general, the essence of the Martial Arts has mostly been about which style is better. Asians in Asia have been fighting over this for a very long time. Look at all of the Kung-Fu movies. Many of their full contact tournaments, pit style vs. style for national pride to this day. Why did Rhonda Rousey get a crap-storm rained on her when she said something like how she could beat Cain Velasquez under the right condition? Or how she could beat UFC Fighter, Brian Caraway and his girlfriend Miesha Tate, one after the other on the same day.....talking trash, reaps its rewards. You hear many Tai Chi people talking about how deadly they are?

I don't believe the essence of Martial Arts is about which style is better. I think that argument has more to do with the human condition than Martial Arts.

As for Ronda Rousey - goes back to the old adage, "Be nice to the people you meet on the way up, because you're going to run into them on the way down."

 

[drop bear]

I get you.. and but one thing I do not fathom and you can help me with is.. why do you.. or all of these people up in here apparently care so passionately concerning whatever people out there make whatever big talk about their Aikido whatnots??

Everyone has their passion. Tez made the same comment here. But then when it comes to profiting from an unworkable anti rape system. She is concerned about the result.

I would not want to see a guy invest a lot of time and money and get sold snake oil.

And even that is kind of funny. Because we have these two opposing ideas where we both feel the other person is being a duche.

People think I am being morally wrong for being critical. Where I think the moral offence is not being critical enough.

 

[FriedRice]

I don't believe the essence of Martial Arts is about which style is better. I think that argument has more to do with the human condition than Martial Arts.

The Asian culture in Asia, where most to virtually all Martial Arts originated from, seem to disagree with this.

It's only since MA's has been brought over into the Western world, that a lot of this spiritual, feel good stuff started to sprout. Then came the Karate Kid fluff and the McDojo's selling belts. A lot of White people love filming their kids dressed in Oriental clothing and doing Asian things. Nothing wrong with any of this, just as there's nothing wrong with fighting vs. other styles for personal glory and that of your gym and style....which I believe, was one of the main focal points of the MA's....not some weird enlightenment that Asian dudes, sold to White people in the 70's.

 

[drop bear]

I don't believe the essence of Martial Arts is about which style is better. I think that argument has more to do with the human condition than Martial Arts.

As for Ronda Rousey - goes back to the old adage, "Be nice to the people you meet on the way up, because you're going to run into them on the way down."

Martial arts has to do what it says on the box. And is has to say on the box what it does in a sensible manner.

And a lot of times it doesn't.

I would love Aikido to work the way people thinks it works.

I could fight whole football teams.

 

[Steve]

I don't think that's an argument against the point JP3 was making. In your example, the guy in the video might see an armbar used effectively on the street and could therefore reasonably draw the conclusion that armbars can sometimes be used effectively in a street confrontation. He cannot draw the reasonable conclusion that his own armbars are any good and would ever be effective (on the street or elsewhere). For that, he would need to personally go through the sort of pressure testing which would (in his case) expose just how bad his technique is.

JP3's comment that you quoted was not (assuming I am reading him correctly) saying that "I saw this technique used in a street confrontation which looks like one I do and therefore my Aikido is sound." He was saying, "I learned this technique in Aikido. I also learned it in Hapkido. Rather than worrying about which art 'owns' the technique, I'm just saying it's part of my personal toolbox." He's not claiming that his training is validated by the success of the guy on the street.

Perhaps it's more directly to your point that JP3 might be mistaken as to whether the guy on the street was really using the same technique as he uses - just as the guy in your video might think he's doing the armbar like a BJJ guy. I suppose it's possible, but considering his background (41 years training martial arts, with dan ranks in Tomiki Aikido, Hapkido, Judo, and TKD, plus an instructor certification in Muay Thai), I'm willing to bet he's got a pretty good eye for these things.

Tony, this may be the first time I disagree with you. I'll try to explain.

First, quickly for context, I've said many times it's less about the style than how one trains. It's the training model. However, styles do tend to embrace one training model over others. So, you can have one instructor/school/style train a technique and it will be a miracle if any of the students CAN perform it effectively. You can have another instructor/school/style train a technique, and it would be a miracle if the student CAN'T perform it effectively.

So, when we see a technique performed with no context, it is dangerous to jump to, "I recognize that as a [blank] technique." It ignores so many important, relevant factors.

In the example I posted, it was of a ninja teaching an armbar. I learned an armbar, too. You teach the technique to your students. Let's say, one of the ninja students posts a video where a person effectively uses an armbar in an unscripted, real life, self defense situation. He says, "That's an armbar. It's a ninjutsu armbar. And it's a BJJ armbar. Rather than worry about whether it's a BJJ armbar or a ninja armbar, why not consider it a tool in my toolbox?"

The answer to that question is that it is probably NOT a tool in this person's toolbox. It's an association fallacy. The armbar that the ninja in the video I posted is not the same as the armbar taught by you in BJJ, even if it looks the same, and that is because the way you teach it and the way that a student is expected to learn it in the ninja school and in yours is fundamentally different.

The bottom line here is that there is a new approach being used where we post a video of a technique in use and then because it exists in several styles, we say it is representative of all of those styles. 'That superficially resembles aikido/bjj/mma/boxing/ninjutsu, so it IS aikido/bjj/mma/boxing/ninjutsu." And now, further, "it doesn't really matter if it's aikido/bjj/mma/boxing/ninjutsu, because they [insert dubious conclusion]."

 

[oaktree]

The Asian culture in Asia, where most to virtually all Martial Arts originated from, seem to disagree with this.

It's only since MA's has been brought over into the Western world, that a lot of this spiritual, feel good stuff started to sprout. Then came the Karate Kid fluff and the McDojo's selling belts. A lot of White people love filming their kids dressed in Oriental clothing and doing Asian things. Nothing wrong with any of this, just as there's nothing wrong with fighting vs. other styles for personal glory and that of your gym and style....which I believe, was one of the main focal points of the MA's....not some weird enlightenment that Asian dudes, sold to White people in the 70's.

None of this is true, and I study koryu Japanese arts, and Chinese arts as well, lived in those counties and speak the languages and have spoken to a decent amount of martial and non martial artist and none of this sounds right, actually quite the opposite.

 

[FriedRice]

None of this is true, and I study koryu Japanese arts, and Chinese arts as well, lived in those counties and speak the languages and have spoken to a decent amount of martial and non martial artist and none of this sounds right, actually quite the opposite.

Haha, none of this is true?

I lived over 8 years in Asia and I'm Asian. How long have you lived there, trained there and which languages do you speak, fluently?

 

[Steve]

Haha, none of this is true?

I lived over 8 years in Asia and I'm Asian. How long have you lived there, trained there and which languages do you speak, fluently?

Ohhh... the measuring stick is OUT! Who's going to come out on top in this episode of, "Dude, I'm WAY more Asian than you!"?

My bet is it's a draw.

Reminds me of a joke. How many Freudian psychologists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Answer: Two! One to screw in the lightbulb and another to hold the peni... ladder! I meant to say ladder!

 

[Blues]

Disagree. The effectiveness is a consequence of not only the martial artist, but also the Art(s) and the Coaching(s). All three, affects the outcome. This is why most people who aspire to become UFC fighters, don't join Aikido schools.

You are your own "coach". You decide what Arts to pursue in order to what you want to become. If one wants to join the UFC, then there is no point in taking Aikido lessons. Totally misunderstood the purpose of Aikido.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

[
i think this logic is a little flawed. I'll try to explain. This guy has learned an armbar. I think it's terrible technique. But it kind of, sort of resembles an armbar.

If he sees someone on "the street" execute an armbar, according to the logic in this thread and your post, he could use that as validation that his training is sound. After all, he learned it. And it seems like he's teaching it.

I see a real problem there. Dont you?

Actually, if he sees the technique in a street encounter, and recognizes it accurately, then all he knows is that the technique can work. That says nothing about his specific training, nor his ability to apply it.

Mind you, that's assuming he's right that it's the same technique. If he sucks, he might also suck at recognizing technique, confusing two different versions (far apart enough to be recognizably different variations). Your BJJ armbar doesn't provide much validation for the armbar variations I teach and use (except for the actual lock, itself), because we approach it so differently. I can't look at an application of the BJJ armbar (the one I'm familiar with - there may be others, for all I know) and say it's the same as what I do/teach.

EDIT: Oh, and I agree that was awful. I'm not even sure there was a point to getting on the ground for it.

 

[FriedRice]

You are your own "coach". You decide what Arts to pursue in order to what you want to become. If one wants to join the UFC, then there is no point in taking Aikido lessons. Totally misunderstood the purpose of Aikido.

You taught yourself Aikido?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The Asian culture in Asia, where most to virtually all Martial Arts originated from, seem to disagree with this.

It's only since MA's has been brought over into the Western world, that a lot of this spiritual, feel good stuff started to sprout. Then came the Karate Kid fluff and the McDojo's selling belts. A lot of White people love filming their kids dressed in Oriental clothing and doing Asian things. Nothing wrong with any of this, just as there's nothing wrong with fighting vs. other styles for personal glory and that of your gym and style....which I believe, was one of the main focal points of the MA's....not some weird enlightenment that Asian dudes, sold to White people in the 70's.

That doesn't seem to jive with things like Ueshiba's teaching of Aikido. By all reports, he taught it that way to Japanese in Japan.

 

[Buka]

Ohhh... the measuring stick is OUT! Who's going to come out on top in this episode of, "Dude, I'm WAY more Asian than you!"?

My bet is it's a draw.

Reminds me of a joke. How many Freudian psychologists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Answer: Two! One to screw in the lightbulb and another to hold the peni... ladder! I meant to say ladder!

Damn near soiled myself.

 

[Blues]

You taught yourself Aikido?

In one word, Zanshin. When doing a technique, striking, throwing, or any other martial art sequence, I concentrate on what I've done: am I balanced? Have I made a mistake? What could I've done better? Are my movements corrects?
These kind of things.
This is what I meant when I said "You are your own coach".

 

[FriedRice]

In one word, Zanshin. When doing a technique, striking, throwing, or any other martial art sequence, I concentrate on what I've done: am I balanced? Have I made a mistake? What could I've done better? Are my movements corrects?
These kinds of things.
This is what I meant when I said "You are your own coach".

Most people, considers their coach(es), someone else other than themselves.

 

[Blues]

Most people, considers their coach(es), someone else other than themselves.

Yeah, I know. But It's like when you are feeling yourself ill and start thinking "Well, maybe I won't go to the pub tonight" or "It's better to call a doctor". Creating doubts is a way to progress, and learning martial arts passively is a bad thing.
This is my personal view, it might be wrong or not, I don't know, but works for me.

 

[Steve]

Actually, if he sees the technique in a street encounter, and recognizes it accurately, then all he knows is that the technique can work. That says nothing about his specific training, nor his ability to apply it.

Mind you, that's assuming he's right that it's the same technique. If he sucks, he might also suck at recognizing technique, confusing two different versions (far apart enough to be recognizably different variations). Your BJJ armbar doesn't provide much validation for the armbar variations I teach and use (except for the actual lock, itself), because we approach it so differently. I can't look at an application of the BJJ armbar (the one I'm familiar with - there may be others, for all I know) and say it's the same as what I do/teach.

EDIT: Oh, and I agree that was awful. I'm not even sure there was a point to getting on the ground for it.

It's the ownership piece that is relevant. It's the, "that's aikido." If you think it's about the technique, I'm not getting through.

Let's say I teach a style called Belch. It's an offshoot of BJJ. Now, I have a singularly crappy training model. My students, the belchers, can perform all of their techniques in a controlled, compliant setting. But, really, its like that ninja video. They suck.

But, as in this thread, they know enough to identify the techniques when they see them. And, as in this thread, they say, "hey!! That guy is belching!! Woot. I'm a belcher, too! My style works." Validation!

That's what has happened recently.

Simply put, a technique may be the same, but whether it is aikido or BJJ or belching matters in that it speaks to training methodology and skill development.

 

[drop bear]

Ohhh... the measuring stick is OUT! Who's going to come out on top in this episode of, "Dude, I'm WAY more Asian than you!"?

My bet is it's a draw.

Reminds me of a joke. How many Freudian psychologists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Answer: Two! One to screw in the lightbulb and another to hold the peni... ladder! I meant to say ladder!

Urban Dictionary: Wapanese