Aikido has no reason to prove itself!
- Thread starter Jaz
- Start date
Urban Trekker
Brown Belt
Well, MMA has kind of been established as the "proving ground" for martial arts. There's no denying that.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I went to the Culinary Institute for two years, but when I wanted to actually learn to cook I had to cross train at the Cordon Bleu.
This is true, until the school on a micro level or the style on a macro level start making claims that could be dangerous.
This would be great, but I don't see this on the literature of a lot of self defense schools, including Aikido. Seems like Aikido schools that don't emphasize self defense are a lot more up front about what you'll learn. For example, I read the front page of this Aikido school and think it's a great model to use. Aikido Northshore No crazy claims, and a lot of emphasis on the non-violent, non-competitive, cooperative goal of spiritual development.
Kendo's very different, because people who train in Kendo are applying their technique.
You misread my point entirely. I was trying to point out that 'not knowing if it works' establishes absolutely a standard that not all martial artists need apply. In my example I intended to highlight that few kendo students study the art with any consideration as to whether 'it works (on the mean streets)'.
Do you not think aikido people are applying their techniques when they train?
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I deny it.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I think I understand your point, but disagree. Speaking for myself, I don't need to know if it works "on the mean streets." I'm satisfied knowing whether or not it works for what it's intended to do.
Does BJJ work on the streets? I think in some situations, it does. But that's not my real concern. I can tell you for sure that it is effective grappling because I've seen it and also done it.
Judo is very effective at learning to throw people, pin them, and submit them. Wrestling is very effective at doing similar things in a different way. Sambo is effective.
On the striking side, we know that boxing is effective, and so is Muay Thai, because we can see people training in these styles and then applying the skills in context. This leads every individual who trains to be able to demonstrate clear, visible improvement in their skills over time that they can apply in context against other skilled practitioners who are actively attempting to do the same.
Aikido doesn't have a vehicle for application.
I do not. Unless you're saying that Aikido is intended to be trained for demonstration purposes only, like modern Wushu, in which case I would agree.
Look at it this way. I have a lot more confidence that a person who trains and is skilled in Kendo will be able to transfer that learning to a different context (e.g., "the street") because they apply their skills in context.
To be clear, this isn't a knock on Aikido. It's a knock on training without application.
And what is aikido intended to do? Kyudo? Capoeira? Iaido?
Why only demonstration? What makes you think that there are no aikido people training, completely aware that they are not learning 'to fight', and completely fulfilled and content with their art and it's training?
My point was that value judgements applied to martial arts are for the short sighted and juvenile.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Exactly. What is aikido intended to do? And does it do that?
You can independently verify Kendo does what it's supposed to do, even if you never train Kendo. It's easily seen, because individuals who train in Kendo routinely apply their skills.
If they are, I think that's great. If you think I'm saying otherwise, I really don't think you understand my point.
Sure, and most (if not all) here agree. This is not a values based discussion. I don't think less of anyone who trains and enjoys Aikido.
This is a practical discussion. It's like if I say I train yoga for self defense. Is yoga fun? Well, I mean, I guess so. Is it good for me? Sure. Is it teaching me fighting skills? Nope.
So, if I were to assert that yoga is a martial art, but when challenged on that I tout all of the ancillary benefits of yoga, I'm kind of missing the point of the question. Don't you think?
1. UFC fighters train combat sports.
2.
Show me better judge than Rokas. Show me aikido stylists who spar and fight in regular way.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Holding the UFC out as the standard is definitely misleading. I would say that the quality of the training is better evaluated based on the performance and skill development of regular people who train in that style. Sure, it's helpful to be able to look at the apex of the style and see what elite level practitioners are able to do. But the rank and file practitioners are going to tell you more about how effective the training will be.
Having said that, any style that has a clear purpose will perform better overall than styles that do not. In other words, if a style is being trained in a vacuum, teaching things that no one in the school does outside of the school, the style would benefit from some kind of competitive element to build practical skill. For example, Aikido would benefit from some kind of Aikido appropriate competition.
Now, we can discuss whether this is inconsistent with the philosophical underpinnings of the style, but that's a different thread that can't really even get started unless we can first agree that a philosophy of cooperative non-violence is counterproductive if learning to defend oneself is the goal.
Urban Trekker
Brown Belt
The only possible motives for denying it are self-serving.
Aikidoflow and warriors tv...they use aikido in their work
id Say they’d have a better opinion then Rokas
Yes I do...I mean you’re acting like you’ve met every Aikidoa or been yo every aikido school...none of them spar or make it work? Oooookkk
Show me them in real sparring or fight. Both od them talk, talk, talk but they do not show anything similar to judo randori, wrestling match, BJJ roll, sambo sparring.
When boxers show the idea of right cross it is quite easy to find footage of this punch succesfully used in full contact sport matches or street brawls. The same with muai thai knees and elbows, judo and wrestling throws, karate kicks etc. Can anybody do the same for aikido?
Why don’t you go look yourself lol...I just gave you examples of a real fight they’ve had lol...they work in security, bouncers, I believe Lenny Sly is in security
But you’ll move the goal post, oh does it work in the street, I’ll say yes they used it in the street then you’ll say oh they fought but they fought untrained guy, lol
on it’s not on YouTube so there’s no proof...so on n so on
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Can you explain how they're better than Rokas? I checked out some of the videos and they seem like your typical self defense fare. I do like the Aikidoflow guy's accent. He reminds me of Idris Elba.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
This is where a discussion like this usually breaks down into tribes arguing about YouTube videos and proof. Hopefully we can skip that part.
Let's say we accept that Aikido works pretty well for bouncers or people who work security. Absent evidence to the contrary, I have no reason to believe a bouncer who says that he uses Aikido techniques all the time in his job. He learned techniques and he applies them in a context.
The question then becomes, are his skills and abilities transferrable? I'd say yes, provided that his students are also bouncers or security. I mean, if you're a bouncer teaching other bouncers how to use technique specific to that context, it makes perfect sense. You have experience and you're sharing that with others who are accumulating their own experience.
But is it transferrable to someone who isn't a bouncer? Well now... that's a different story completely. That's where things start to get squirrelly.
that makes no sense, just more goal post moving
How are they better then Rokas? Um they make their stuff work? I’ve only said that 20 timesCan you explain how they're better than Rokas? I checked out some of the videos and they seem like your typical self defense fare. I do like the Aikidoflow guy's accent. He reminds me of Idris Elba.
is Rokas some big name in martial arts that I should care what he says?
I mean instead of trying it yourself you want to argue over what some guy says then claim it’s a useless art...thats Tribal on your part not open minded
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Wow. That is funny.
