Aikido and Law Enforcement

[oftheherd1]

This depends on the goal. You may want to be just a boxer or just a muay thai fighter, but if you want to be the best striker you can be it would benefit you to work on both, even if you advance more slowly in each style.

That may be. But isn't boxing a very rule regulated art, striking waist and above, and Muay Thai a much less rule regulated striking art using any part of the body one can bring into play, including hands, elbows, knees and feet, against any part of the opponent's body? I'm not sure trying to blend them will make one the best striker one can be. But then I am neither a boxer nor a Muay Thai student.

Same with mixing up the ground and the standup. As much as I'm a fan of judo and bjj, I'm not terribly fond of the idea of looking like a retarded octopus when I throw fists.

Well, I don't really know much about Judo nor BJJ, but if they don't teach striking sufficient to accomplish the goals of the art, that would seem to be a disconnect.

Also, where are we drawing the line when you compare multiple arts at "lower" levels vs. one art at a "higher" level? That makes a big difference. If I have a purple belt in 2 grappling based arts and 2 striking based arts and you have a 3rd degree black belt but in only one art, we have a very different discussion on our hands than if we make my purple belts into orange belts (the belts here are a subjective metaphor for skill level, not to be taken literally).

Have you studied an art to 3rd Dan?

 

[drop bear]

Well, considering the way this thread has already drifted, it's probably OK for you to comment on my thoughts. Then if there is sufficient posts/interest about it, one of us can start another thread.

Fair enough. I just did what was available depending on where i was at,at the time. You can do a system fo 20 years and still be crap. It gets complicated.

 

[drop bear]

That may be. But isn't boxing a very rule regulated art, striking waist and above, and Muay Thai a much less rule regulated striking art using any part of the body one can bring into play, including hands, elbows, knees and feet, against any part of the opponent's body? I'm not sure trying to blend them will make one the best striker one can be. But then I am neither a boxer nor a Muay Thai student

Martial arts dont blend. They compromise. So the best method for avoiding punches is not the best method for avoiding knees.

The best fighters are the ones that can transition between methods.

 

[ballen0351]

In fairness, I think that's not so much a BJJ attitude as it is the attitude of a certain vocal minority of BJJ practitioners. Most of the high-level BJJ practitioners I know hold black belt or black belt-equivalent rank in at least one other system and are appreciative of the skills and knowledge to be found in other arts.

Helio Gracie, along with his sons, was a big salesman for the idea that jiu-jitsu always beats everything. (Perhaps because it was to his financial advantage to do so.) However I think the wider BJJ community has started moving away from this concept.

I disagree its far more prevalent than just a few vocal minority. Its not as widespread here on MT with just a few posters in the BJJ mafia but on other sites and inside the gyms its very common and makes me hate actually training in BJJ if I could find other styles with morning classes I would not train BJJ at all. BJJ has nothing special I can't get from other styles at a cheaper price except a better schedule from my life

There are exceptions - instructors who place as much emphasis on takedown skills as on ground skills - but they are unfortunately in the minority. One of my current projects is working on upgrading my mediocre takedown skills so I can spend more time teaching my students to be better at takedowns.

Same thing he was doing. He though Judo had the best takedowns so he sought it out.

 

[ballen0351]

OK. So what on earth is "grabbing" people vs grabbing people?

When I say grabbing people I mean hanging on to them. Which for me is kind of an essential part of applying a standing restraint.

For me if I walk put my hand on you and guide or lead you away Im not "grabbing" you. Like in the video you posted they were not really hoding on they were just guiding him and were using little to no force You take off running and I have to physically hold on to keep control and your struggling then I'm grabbing you. I'm touching you either way but the intent is different

 

[drop bear]

For me if I walk put my hand on you and guide or lead you away Im not "grabbing" you. Like in the video you posted they were not really hoding on they were just guiding him and were using little to no force You take off running and I have to physically hold on to keep control and your struggling then I'm grabbing you. I'm touching you either way but the intent is different

Either way. You should have the flexibility in your training system to do both. The same two on one arm control I use to make sure some sick grandma can walk to an ambulance is the same control I use to put down thugs.

Obviously there is a force continuum at play here.

Grabbing,"grabbing" is pretty much a pointless distinction in this case. It was a deliberate attempt to distract off the topic. Basically tez was trying to say that the grabbing "grabbing" I use in crowd control is a different grabbing "grabbing" that you use in police work. So therefore she is right and I am wrong.

Mabye if I was wondering why I was suddenly suplexing everybody I come in contact with. But in deciding whether or not bjj is more suited to police work than akido. Well not so much as both grabbings get used.

Now most of these grabbings are a con job anyway. Nobody cares if you get your head busted in grabbing people so long as you don't hurt the guy you are grabbing.

The industry trainer swears blind that these methods will work flawlessly. The company accepts that on faith and the beurocrats set that as the working standard. And the person who actually has to use these methods faces injury at one end of the spectrum and a law suit at the other.

 

[ballen0351]

Either way. You should have the flexibility in your training system to do both. The same two on one arm control I use to make sure some sick grandma can walk to an ambulance is the same control I use to put down thugs.

Obviously there is a force continuum at play here.

Grabbing,"grabbing" is pretty much a pointless distinction in this case. It was a deliberate attempt to distract off the topic. Basically tez was trying to say that the grabbing "grabbing" I use in crowd control is a different grabbing "grabbing" that you use in police work. So therefore she is right and I am wrong.

Mabye if I was wondering why I was suddenly suplexing everybody I come in contact with. But in deciding whether or not bjj is more suited to police work than akido. Well not so much as both grabbings get used.

Now most of these grabbings are a con job anyway. Nobody cares if you get your head busted in grabbing people so long as you don't hurt the guy you are grabbing.

The industry trainer swears blind that these methods will work flawlessly. The company accepts that on faith and the beurocrats set that as the working standard. And the person who actually has to use these methods faces injury at one end of the spectrum and a law suit at the other.

No

 

[Skullpunch]

That may be. But isn't boxing a very rule regulated art, striking waist and above, and Muay Thai a much less rule regulated striking art using any part of the body one can bring into play, including hands, elbows, knees and feet, against any part of the opponent's body? I'm not sure trying to blend them will make one the best striker one can be. But then I am neither a boxer nor a Muay Thai student.

Yes but they compliment the biggest holes in one another's style. If you look at the vast majority of pure muay thai fighters their movement is very limited, footwork is a major issue and the quality of hand strikes tends to be very, very poor compared to a boxer. In terms of pure striking, these are the two major issues with muay thai and if a muay thai fighter loses a striking battle to a fighter from another style of equal skill level it will probably have a lot (if not entirely) to do with one of these weaknesses.

Boxing, on the other hand, is about as tried and true as they come for filling the above gaps and as for the weaknesses....well you probably already know this. No kicks, clinch is used for stalling instead of control and/or striking, those are the holes muay thai covers up.

Well, I don't really know much about Judo nor BJJ, but if they don't teach striking sufficient to accomplish the goals of the art, that would seem to be a disconnect.

IMO the goal of training in an art should be up to the practitioner. But if you want to be well rounded then it's anywhere from difficult to impossible for one art to accomplish this better than multiple arts.

Have you studied an art to 3rd Dan?

Me personally? No, and I probably never will because focusing entirely on one style doesn't suit me. But I have trained with people on that level. Now my question to you....have you studied 4 arts that complement each other and fill all of the holes in one another's systems to the purple belt level? The 3rd Dan may be able to wreck the 4x purple at what he's good at, but the 4x purple should be able to wreck the 3rd dan at everything else. Me personally, with the goals that I have and my reasoning for practicing martial arts, I'd rather be the latter.

 

[ballen0351]

Now my question to you....have you studied 4 arts that complement each other and fill all of the holes in one another's systems to the purple belt level? The 3rd Dan may be able to wreck the 4x purple at what he's good at, but the 4x purple should be able to wreck the 3rd dan at everything else. Me personally, with the goals that I have and my reasoning for practicing martial arts, I'd rather be the latter.

What single arts have you studied that were so lacking it needed 3 other styles to make it up?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Well, I don't really know much about Judo nor BJJ, but if they don't teach striking sufficient to accomplish the goals of the art, that would seem to be a disconnect.

In regards to this, not sure about BJJ beyond what I can see, but judo teaches striking specifically to accomplish the goals of the art. Those goals are being able to perform them in the air, but not during sparring. To many people, this does not accomplish their goals, even though the goals of judo are accomplished.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Me personally? No, and I probably never will because focusing entirely on one style doesn't suit me. But I have trained with people on that level. Now my question to you....have you studied 4 arts that complement each other and fill all of the holes in one another's systems to the purple belt level? The 3rd Dan may be able to wreck the 4x purple at what he's good at, but the 4x purple should be able to wreck the 3rd dan at everything else. Me personally, with the goals that I have and my reasoning for practicing martial arts, I'd rather be the latter.

Ok, so my thoughts reading this.
First: What style's ranking system are you using. A purple belt in BJJ means a different thing to me than a purple belt in american kenpo, and boxing doesn't have belts so that doesn't mean much. How many years of dedicated training are you comparing to a purple belt? For the rest of this, I will assume that you mean an 'intermediate' level.

Second: Certain (many) systems are in fact well rounded. True, its possible that the art may have a focus on one element more than another, but so will any fighter. IMO, learning one art that encompasses almost everything to its fullest and be experienced with every skill than learning a bunch of complementary arts to a beginner or intermediate level and be at a beginner or intermediate level with each skill.

Third: How do you manage to find four complementary arts near you, and if you are a beginner, how do you know that each teacher's way of practicing is complementary to each other. This is why I'm against the idea of cross training until you're experienced..you can't tell if the movements you're being taught may contradict each other somehow.

Fourth and final: Let's assume you're practicing one of the arts that does specialize, like Judo. If you're competitive (and if you're not, you wouldn't care about this argument at all), you will likely have learned ways to defend against other styles. At the Judo school I went to, many people were competitive in non-judo tournaments as well, so once a week they would have randori where they allowed atemi, just to practice against it. While this is not something normally found in Judo, it was very clear participating that they were all judoka. I am primarily a striker who has decent/intermediate takedown defense, who faced against them. I realized after a couple months that against people who had only reached a certain level, if I was on my game I would win by using my strikes to my advantage, and change ranges constantly so that they could not get a good grip. However, when I was facing people who had reached a certain level (and some of these have only ever practiced the one art), they could pretty easily get a grip on me while I was changing ranges, because they had learned how to adapt while still using their judo.
The short version of that last one is: If you're a 3rd Dan who can wreck at what you're good at, you definitely know enough to make someone who has no expert specialty fight you in the way that you're good at.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I disagree its far more prevalent than just a few vocal minority. Its not as widespread here on MT with just a few posters in the BJJ mafia but on other sites and inside the gyms its very common and makes me hate actually training in BJJ if I could find other styles with morning classes I would not train BJJ at all. BJJ has nothing special I can't get from other styles at a cheaper price except a better schedule from my life

I think a lot may depend on where you train. At my gym I hear no bashing of other arts and many of the BJJ practitioners have expressed respect for or interest in a variety of other systems. The same goes for most of our affiliated gyms in the area. The school in Frankfort (run by a BJJ/Judo black belt) hosted a seminar by an Aikido instructor to help improve their students wristlocks. My gym co-hosted a seminar with Judo Olympian Neil Adams. My friend who runs a school in Lawrenceburg is very proud of his Karate lineage. The head instructor from one of the other schools here in Lexington also teaches and practices Tae Kwon Do. Another BJJ instructor from Louisville just commented to me last week how much he loves certain moves from Wing Chun.

In contrast, back in my days training in the Bujinkan it was commonplace for teachers and students alike to proclaim the superiority of ninjutsu over all the other "partial arts", as they called them. Going back even further to my very first martial arts lessons (in Tae Kwon Do), the instructor started out my orientation by explaining how Tae Kwon Do practitioners always defeated practitioners of other arts in competition because of the superiority of their kicks.

There are always people who will proclaim the superiority of their own art. Sometimes it's a marketing tactic. Other times it's because they want to feel superior by association with the "superior" art. Other times it's just that they are just passionate about their chosen art and somehow think that if they just keep telling other people how great it is then everyone else will fall in love with the same art as much as they have. My experience is that BJJ practitioners are no more prone to this than practitioners of other arts.

 

[ballen0351]

My experience is that BJJ practitioners are no more prone to this than practitioners of other arts.

Have you been reading the posts here for the last year or so

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Have you been reading the posts here for the last year or so

Yep.

Hanzou (BJJ purple belt) regularly jumps into threads to proclaim the worthlessness of kata, the superiority of arts that perform well in MMA (BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, Sombo, Judo, Muay Thai, Kyokushin, etc), question the value of arts that don't perform well on MMA, and generally declare the superiority of BJJ. He's the only regular poster on Martial Talk I've seen do this.

Steve (BJJ purple belt) can get touchy at perceived slights to BJJ, but he doesn't attack other arts. He does strongly advocate the practice of free sparring in any art and feels that practitioners who do this tend to perform better, regardless of their art.

Brian Van Crise (long time BJJ practitioner) is also a practitioner and advocate of a wide variety of other arts.

Kuniggety (BJJ blue belt) has no posts cutting down other arts that I have been able to find. I have read a number of his posts saying positive things about various other arts.

Drop Bear, who seems to be one of the guys you like to argue with, is not a BJJ practitioner. He's an MMA practitioner whose foundation is more karate and wrestling than BJJ.

Buka (long time BJJ practitioner and fan, but I'm not sure if he holds rank) identifies primarily as a karate guy and does not denigrate other arts.

MJS (BJJ practitioner, not sure of rank) trains in other arts and I've never seen him cut down other arts or declare the general superiority of BJJ.

AlphaBJJ (BJJ black belt) - just reviewed all his comments. Not a one proclaiming the superiority of BJJ over other arts.

Myself (BJJ black belt) - have never denigrated other arts or declared BJJ to be the best. Have expressed interest in a wide range of martial arts and admiration for a wide range of martial artists.

I may have missed a few, but that's most of the BJJ practitioners I can think of who have posted here significantly over the last year. I count precisely one who is guilty of what you are complaining about. (And even he has another half-dozen or so arts besides BJJ that he will recommend.)

 

[ballen0351]

Yep.

Hanzou (BJJ purple belt) regularly jumps into threads to proclaim the worthlessness of kata, the superiority of arts that perform well in MMA (BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, Sombo, Judo, Muay Thai, Kyokushin, etc), question the value of arts that don't perform well on MMA, and generally declare the superiority of BJJ. He's the only regular poster on Martial Talk I've seen do this.

Steve (BJJ purple belt) can get touchy at perceived slights to BJJ, but he doesn't attack other arts. He does strongly advocate the practice of free sparring in any art and feels that practitioners who do this tend to perform better, regardless of their art.

Brian Van Crise (long time BJJ practitioner) is also a practitioner and advocate of a wide variety of other arts.

Kuniggety (BJJ blue belt) has no posts cutting down other arts that I have been able to find. I have read a number of his posts saying positive things about various other arts.

Drop Bear, who seems to be one of the guys you like to argue with, is not a BJJ practitioner. He's an MMA practitioner whose foundation is more karate and wrestling than BJJ.

Buka (long time BJJ practitioner and fan, but I'm not sure if he holds rank) identifies primarily as a karate guy and does not denigrate other arts.

MJS (BJJ practitioner, not sure of rank) trains in other arts and I've never seen him cut down other arts or declare the general superiority of BJJ.

AlphaBJJ (BJJ black belt) - just reviewed all his comments. Not a one proclaiming the superiority of BJJ over other arts.

Myself (BJJ black belt) - have never denigrated other arts or declared BJJ to be the best. Have expressed interest in a wide range of martial arts and admiration for a wide range of martial artists.

I may have missed a few, but that's most of the BJJ practitioners I can think of who have posted here significantly over the last year. I count precisely one who is guilty of what you are complaining about. (And even he has another half-dozen or so arts besides BJJ that he will recommend.)

Not that your bias....You see what you want Tony but Your right You BJJ guys are a delight

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Not that your bias....You see what you want Tony but Your right You BJJ guys are a delight

So.. I'm biased in favor of thinking that we don't think BJJ is the only thing that works even though we really think that? We all have biases, but that would be an awfully peculiar one.

I just reviewed the posting history of every BJJ practicing regular poster here that I can think of. Whether we are a "delight" or not is a matter of personal taste and opinion. Whether any particular one of us has declared BJJ to be "the only thing that works" (as you originally stated was a common BJJ attitude) is a matter of objective verifiable fact.

If you like, I can find quotes from almost every poster listed above (even Hanzou!) crediting various arts besides BJJ as being effective. I'll bet cash money that you can't find a single quote from any of them saying that BJJ is the only thing that works. Even Hanzou, who I freely grant is obnoxiously evangelical in his promotion of BJJ, has about a half-dozen other arts that he frequently advocates as being effective.

If you insist on arguing that the BJJ practitioners here are proclaiming a preposition ("BJJ is the only thing that works") that most of us have explicitly denied, but can't produce a single quote from one of us expressing that opinion, then I think you are the one who is only seeing what you want to.

 

[ballen0351]

So.. I'm biased in favor of thinking that we don't think BJJ is the only thing that works even though we really think that? We all have biases, but that would be an awfully peculiar one.

I just reviewed the posting history of every BJJ practicing regular poster here that I can think of. Whether we are a "delight" or not is a matter of personal taste and opinion. Whether any particular one of us has declared BJJ to be "the only thing that works" (as you originally stated was a common BJJ attitude) is a matter of objective verifiable fact.

If you like, I can find quotes from almost every poster listed above (even Hanzou!) crediting various arts besides BJJ as being effective. I'll bet cash money that you can't find a single quote from any of them saying that BJJ is the only thing that works. Even Hanzou, who I freely grant is obnoxiously evangelical in his promotion of BJJ, has about a half-dozen other arts that he frequently advocates as being effective.

If you insist on arguing that the BJJ practitioners here are proclaiming a preposition ("BJJ is the only thing that works") that most of us have explicitly denied, but can't produce a single quote from one of us expressing that opinion, then I think you are the one who is only seeing what you want to.

I've said several times its not just here at MT in fact I said its not as bad here as other places I suspect because there isnt alot of BJJ guys here, but yes even here Ive seen several posts from some of the crew on your list speaking poorly of other styles on many occasions.
I'm not going to look them up for you Tony your mind is set and Honestly I don't care if you see it or not your not my daddy I dont need or want your approval. Im not shocked a black belt in BJJ doesn't see other BJJ practitioners doing wrong since your not looking for it so of course you don't see it.
So you believe what you want that there is no culture problem in BJJ and I will believe as I See it.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

even here Ive seen several posts from some of the crew on your list speaking poorly of other styles on many occasions.

"Speaking poorly of other styles" (presumably specific styles) is not the same thing as saying "BJJ is the only thing that works." Hanzou frequently speaks poorly of many other styles, but he also recommends a number of arts besides BJJ as being effective.

As far as anyone on that list besides Hanzou denigrating other styles, I just went on an extended search through their posting histories and couldn't find anything.

I'm not going to look them up for you

In other words, you can't back up your accusations.

I, on the other hand, would be happy to provide plenty of quotes from the people on that list mentioning other arts besides BJJ that are effective and denying the idea that BJJ is the only thing that works. Just say the word.

I don't care if you see it or not your not my daddy I dont need or want your approval.

What in the world does this have to do with my approval? Do you do this in your offline life - accuse people of bad behavior and when they defend themselves and ask for an example of what you are talking about, say "you're not my daddy, I don't need your approval"? I can't imagine that goes over well.

Im not shocked a black belt in BJJ doesn't see other BJJ practitioners doing wrong since your not looking for it so of course you don't see it.

As mentioned above, I just spent time specifically looking for it. If you or anyone else can find something I missed, please point it out.

I have black belts in three arts. I've seen bad behavior from practitioners of all those arts. No more and no less than from practitioners of any other art, mind you. I practice the arts I do because I enjoy training in those arts, not because I imagine my fellow practitioners are morally superior or better behaved than practitioners of any other martial art.

So you believe what you want that there is no culture problem in BJJ and I will believe as I See it.

That's fine. You have your experiences and I have mine. You train at one school and I train at another.

But if you are going to publicly accuse people on this forum of a specific behavior, it behooves you to be able to back it up.

 

[ballen0351]

"Speaking poorly of other styles" (presumably specific styles) is not the same thing as saying "BJJ is the only thing that works." Hanzou frequently speaks poorly of many other styles, but he also recommends a number of arts besides BJJ as being effective.

As far as anyone on that list besides Hanzou denigrating other styles, I just went on an extended search through their posting histories and couldn't find anything.

you didnt look hard enough. And talking poorly of other styles is just as bad as claiming BJJ is the best its all a pattern of behavior that I see from the BJJ mafia crowd

In other words, you can't back up your accusations.

No it means your minds made up and I dont care your part of the prob so of course your not going to admit to the prob existing

I, on the other hand, would be happy to provide plenty of quotes from the people on that list mentioning other arts besides BJJ that are effective and denying the idea that BJJ is the only thing that works. Just say the word.

Knock yourself out. See how touchy you BJJ guys get when someone doesnt bow before the great and powerful BJJ gods its comical

What in the world does this have to do with my approval? Do you do this in your offline life - accuse people of bad behavior and when they defend themselves and ask for an example of what you are talking about, say "you're not my daddy, I don't need your approval"? I can't imagine that goes over well.

Approval was a poor word choice I don't need you to agree with my you dont know me you don't know where I train you don't know the people I know that train BJJ you don't go to the gyms I do. Perhaps you folks in KY are nicer then the folks in the DC metro actually having been to KY I know you people are nicer
Either way BJJ crowd in general that I deal with act like a bunch of bullies head over to some other well known forums and read some posts (oops I did it again I forgot to bow before the BJJ alter)

I have black belts in three arts. I've seen bad behavior from practitioners of all those arts. No more and no less than from practitioners of any other art, mind you. I practice the arts I do because I enjoy training in those arts, not because I imagine my fellow practitioners are morally superior or better behaved than practitioners of any other martial art.

I never said you believed you were morally superior and honestly I dont care why you train what you train its irrelevant to the topic

That's fine. You have your experiences and I have mine. You train at one school and I train at another.

But if you are going to publicly accuse people on this forum of a specific behavior, it behooves you to be able to back it up.

Like I said I have formed my opinion from more then just MT. There was a post the other day on Jiu-Jitsu Times page asking why BJJ was more expensive 75% of the answers were "Cause its better" My own BJJ instructor bashes TKD and Karate all the time in class. So exit your bubble and stop pretending it doesn't happen.

On that feel free to keep posting you cant change my opinion since well its mine and really means nothing to anyone else.....except you apparently

 

[Buka]

As far as abrasive derailed threads go, this one's a corker.