Aikido and Law Enforcement

[Buka]

If I may be so bold as to relate a little history lesson to you fellas. In 1970 the art of Style-bashing was born, perfected and became more popular than Fantasy Football is today. We, Karate guys, started it, it was OURS. All you late comer, band wagon jumpers stole it.

Then an awful thing happened. Tragic, really. People started to train together. Style bashing and hate were restricted to the much smaller world of charlatans. And there just weren't enough of them around to propagate our love to slander. Alas, it was sad.

Nice to see some nostalgic, born again, resurrection, even if it's only on the net! Hate on, my brothers, hate on.

Tony, from a post above - yes, I have rank in BBJ. I am a dirty white belt, have been for a long while. Damn proud of it, too.

But.....I hate dirty white belts in other arts. They suck.

 

[Steve]

As far as abrasive derailed threads go, this one's a corker.

Yeah, but much needed. debunking this bjj mafia myth is long overdue, and I appreciate it.

 

[Buka]

Yeah, but much needed. debunking this bjj mafia myth is long overdue, and I appreciate it.

I don't really understand how that term, BJJ Mafia, came about.

 

[Skullpunch]

Ok, so my thoughts reading this.
First: What style's ranking system are you using. A purple belt in BJJ means a different thing to me than a purple belt in american kenpo, and boxing doesn't have belts so that doesn't mean much. How many years of dedicated training are you comparing to a purple belt? For the rest of this, I will assume that you mean an 'intermediate' level.

Second: Certain (many) systems are in fact well rounded. True, its possible that the art may have a focus on one element more than another, but so will any fighter. IMO, learning one art that encompasses almost everything to its fullest and be experienced with every skill than learning a bunch of complementary arts to a beginner or intermediate level and be at a beginner or intermediate level with each skill.

Third: How do you manage to find four complementary arts near you, and if you are a beginner, how do you know that each teacher's way of practicing is complementary to each other. This is why I'm against the idea of cross training until you're experienced..you can't tell if the movements you're being taught may contradict each other somehow.

Fourth and final: Let's assume you're practicing one of the arts that does specialize, like Judo. If you're competitive (and if you're not, you wouldn't care about this argument at all), you will likely have learned ways to defend against other styles. At the Judo school I went to, many people were competitive in non-judo tournaments as well, so once a week they would have randori where they allowed atemi, just to practice against it. While this is not something normally found in Judo, it was very clear participating that they were all judoka. I am primarily a striker who has decent/intermediate takedown defense, who faced against them. I realized after a couple months that against people who had only reached a certain level, if I was on my game I would win by using my strikes to my advantage, and change ranges constantly so that they could not get a good grip. However, when I was facing people who had reached a certain level (and some of these have only ever practiced the one art), they could pretty easily get a grip on me while I was changing ranges, because they had learned how to adapt while still using their judo.
The short version of that last one is: If you're a 3rd Dan who can wreck at what you're good at, you definitely know enough to make someone who has no expert specialty fight you in the way that you're good at.

First: I'm using the belts as a subjective measure of skill rather than something to be taken literally.

Second: The systems that are well rounded are blends of multiple other systems anyway and it's good to blend them but many professionals also believe there is benefit to having segments of the training day focused on one discipline and then another on the next. Another problem with the well rounded systems of which you speak is finding instructors that are actually capable of making you good at everything.

Third: It's not that hard. Many MMA clubs have 4 or more arts in one training center, and if it's a serious training facility then the trainers will have a lot of experience at what they do and at cross training and be able to guide you accordingly. I don't necessarily object to what you say about being experienced at one thing and then cross training but I'm talking about being decent at multiple disciplines vs being really good at just one.

Also, "4" is something of an arbitrary number here. You can make it 2 if you want as long as they fill one another's holes. A wrestler/boxer's advantage over a guy who only knows one thing is still pretty clear to me.

Fourth: It's not that black and white. For every instance like this there are one or more instances of a high level judoka who would get KO'd in under a minute by a boxer/wrestler because he can't score a takedown and can't strike with him, even if the boxer/wrestler isn't as good at either discipline as the judoka is at his one. Or a wrestler who doesn't know any striking or submissions who takes down a striker/bjj practitioner because he doesn't want to strike with him, then gets choked or armbar'd after the takedown. Or a 10 year karate practitioner who can't stay on his feet against a guy with just a couple of years of wrestling and a year of submissions and would end up with a dislocated shoulder.

If what you say were 100% true, about how a 3rd Dan knows enough to make someone with no one specialty fight you in your own specialty, then there wouldn't be any need for cross training, nor would there be any need for hybrid systems that incorporate more than one discipline.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In 1970 the art of Style-bashing was born, perfected and became more popular than Fantasy Football is today. We, Karate guys, started it, it was OURS. All you late comer, band wagon jumpers stole it.

Hey! Helio Gracie mastered the art of style-bashing, trash-talking, and outright slander back in the 1930s. You karate guys are a bunch of imitators.

Unfortunately the skills of slanderous trash-talking style-bashing are being neglected in many academies these days. At this rate these vital skills may be lost in another generation. I'm thinking of selling an instructional video for students who haven't had the opportunity to learn the techniques that Helio considered vital. As an added bonus, I will include methods for running down other BJJ practitioners who teach or train at competing academies.

 

[Buka]

Hey! Helio Gracie mastered the art of style-bashing, trash-talking, and outright slander back in the 1930s. You karate guys are a bunch of imitators.

Unfortunately the skills of slanderous trash-talking style-bashing are being neglected in many academies these days. At this rate these vital skills may be lost in another generation. I'm thinking of selling an instructional video for students who haven't had the opportunity to learn the techniques that Helio considered vital. As an added bonus, I will include methods for running down other BJJ practitioners who teach or train at competing academies.

Thank God you are a true renaissance man. I will gladly write a blurb to go with your cover art.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

BTW - we seem to have gotten pretty far away from the original topic of the usefulness of Aikido training for LEOs. I'd love to hear from any LEO Aikidoka who want to explain what skills, techniques, or attributes from their Aikido training that they find useful in their jobs.

 

[Buka]

Not to hog the board here, but as a former LEO who taught DT....

We used a lot of yielding to power to move an aggressor where you wanted him. I don't remember what the Aikido term is because we purposely didn't use any foreign terms in our training. We also used controlling the head, which was first taught to us by some Aikido guys. (Similar methods of head control came from other arts as well)

Another thing I learned from an Aikido guy - If I was pushed down backwards, and needed to stop rolling, or momentum, so I could draw my weapon, was to kick my heels hard towards my butt. Stopped the motion, cold - easy draw of weapon from there. Again, no idea of the proper name.

 

[Hanzou]

My own BJJ instructor bashes TKD and Karate all the time in class. So exit your bubble and stop pretending it doesn't happen.

If it bothers you so much, just challenge him to a friendly sparring match, and promise to use nothing but Okinawan Karate against him.

 

[jks9199]

Wow...

Lots of people in various arts bash, talk down, denigrate, and generally describe other arts as poopy heads. Yeah, it is as childish as that sounds. The motto of the American Bando Association is that just "As no one nation or people has a monopoly on sunlight, no one system, school, or doctrine has a monopoly on truth." Might be worth keeping that idea in mind...

In law enforcement, I can probably come up with a good dozen or more ways to handle any given call, and all are "right" in that they are legal, they comply with the regulations and general orders, are safe, and get the job done. And just as soon as I think I've listed them all -- someone will come up with another. Martial arts aren't much different...

So... let's try to return this thread to the topic before it gets locked and infractions get handed out.

 

[ballen0351]

If it bothers you so much, just challenge him to a friendly sparring match, and promise to use nothing but Okinawan Karate against him.

for starters that's pretty rude it's his school he can say what he wants in his school who am I to tell him he can't. 2nd it doesn't bother me it was just an example of the BJJ mentality

 

[oftheherd1]

Yes but they compliment the biggest holes in one another's style. If you look at the vast majority of pure muay thai fighters their movement is very limited, footwork is a major issue and the quality of hand strikes tends to be very, very poor compared to a boxer. In terms of pure striking, these are the two major issues with muay thai and if a muay thai fighter loses a striking battle to a fighter from another style of equal skill level it will probably have a lot (if not entirely) to do with one of these weaknesses.

Boxing, on the other hand, is about as tried and true as they come for filling the above gaps and as for the weaknesses....well you probably already know this. No kicks, clinch is used for stalling instead of control and/or striking, those are the holes muay thai covers up.





IMO the goal of training in an art should be up to the practitioner. But if you want to be well rounded then it's anywhere from difficult to impossible for one art to accomplish this better than multiple arts.





Me personally? No, and I probably never will because focusing entirely on one style doesn't suit me. But I have trained with people on that level. Now my question to you....have you studied 4 arts that complement each other and fill all of the holes in one another's systems to the purple belt level? The 3rd Dan may be able to wreck the 4x purple at what he's good at, but the 4x purple should be able to wreck the 3rd dan at everything else. Me personally, with the goals that I have and my reasoning for practicing martial arts, I'd rather be the latter.

Not being a boxer nor a Muay thai practitioner I cannon confirm nor deny what you say, but it just sounds a little off to me.

Yes but they compliment the biggest holes in one another's style. If you look at the vast majority of pure muay thai fighters their movement is very limited, footwork is a major issue and the quality of hand strikes tends to be very, very poor compared to a boxer. In terms of pure striking, these are the two major issues with muay thai and if a muay thai fighter loses a striking battle to a fighter from another style of equal skill level it will probably have a lot (if not entirely) to do with one of these weaknesses.

Boxing, on the other hand, is about as tried and true as they come for filling the above gaps and as for the weaknesses....well you probably already know this. No kicks, clinch is used for stalling instead of control and/or striking, those are the holes muay thai covers up.





IMO the goal of training in an art should be up to the practitioner. But if you want to be well rounded then it's anywhere from difficult to impossible for one art to accomplish this better than multiple arts.





Me personally? No, and I probably never will because focusing entirely on one style doesn't suit me. But I have trained with people on that level. Now my question to you....have you studied 4 arts that complement each other and fill all of the holes in one another's systems to the purple belt level? The 3rd Dan may be able to wreck the 4x purple at what he's good at, but the 4x purple should be able to wreck the 3rd dan at everything else. Me personally, with the goals that I have and my reasoning for practicing martial arts, I'd rather be the latter.

Not being a boxer nor a Muay thai practitioner I cannon confirm nor deny what you say in your first paragraph, but it just sounds a little off to me.

I really cannot agree with your second paragraph. By the time you reach 3rd Dan in an art, you should have a lot of skills. That should include how to overcome methods that may not normally be a focus of your own art.

In your third paragraph, I just don't believe you are correct. I don't know what a purple belt equates to, but there is no way a non-black belt should best a 3rd degree black belt with any regularity, much less consistently, unless the 3rd Dan has not been properly taught and promoted. And no, I haven't studied 4 arts, much less tried to find 4 that compliment each other. I don't feel my art has deficiencies that require that.

 

[oftheherd1]

First: I'm using the belts as a subjective measure of skill rather than something to be taken literally.

Second: The systems that are well rounded are blends of multiple other systems anyway and it's good to blend them but many professionals also believe there is benefit to having segments of the training day focused on one discipline and then another on the next. Another problem with the well rounded systems of which you speak is finding instructors that are actually capable of making you good at everything.

Third: It's not that hard. Many MMA clubs have 4 or more arts in one training center, and if it's a serious training facility then the trainers will have a lot of experience at what they do and at cross training and be able to guide you accordingly. I don't necessarily object to what you say about being experienced at one thing and then cross training but I'm talking about being decent at multiple disciplines vs being really good at just one.

Also, "4" is something of an arbitrary number here. You can make it 2 if you want as long as they fill one another's holes. A wrestler/boxer's advantage over a guy who only knows one thing is still pretty clear to me.

Fourth: It's not that black and white. For every instance like this there are one or more instances of a high level judoka who would get KO'd in under a minute by a boxer/wrestler because he can't score a takedown and can't strike with him, even if the boxer/wrestler isn't as good at either discipline as the judoka is at his one. Or a wrestler who doesn't know any striking or submissions who takes down a striker/bjj practitioner because he doesn't want to strike with him, then gets choked or armbar'd after the takedown. Or a 10 year karate practitioner who can't stay on his feet against a guy with just a couple of years of wrestling and a year of submissions and would end up with a dislocated shoulder.

If what you say were 100% true, about how a 3rd Dan knows enough to make someone with no one specialty fight you in your own specialty, then there wouldn't be any need for cross training, nor would there be any need for hybrid systems that incorporate more than one discipline.

I just realized we may be talking apples and oranges to each other. Are you talking about MMA competitions? If so, perhaps study in several arts, even to the equivalent of lower belts might be advantageous. After all, there are rules about what techniques can be used, and allowing an opponent to tap out. Nothing wrong with that. I was thinking more along the lines of the OP's question. Again, you may say there are rules, and there are, but use of force by law enforcement isn't competition. And the win should always be slanted toward the law enforcement officer. I believe grappling arts like Aikido would be more advantageous. I have never studied Aikido, so I can't say for certain that it would help. Apparently none of our own members who are in law enforcement have either.

 

[ballen0351]

Yeah, but much needed. debunking this bjj mafia myth is long overdue, and I appreciate it.

except it wasn't and your one of the biggest well 3rd biggest actually offender

 

[ballen0351]

Double post

 

[ballen0351]

I don't really understand how that term, BJJ Mafia, came about.

some members here like to run over other style sections to troll styles they don't know anything about it reminded me of the Mafia shaking down or "taxing" neighborhoods

 

[Buka]

We all have such passion about what we do! (wouldn't it suck if we didn't? No, really I mean, c'mon.)

Sometimes we need to puff our chests and smoke cigars, and sometimes we need to chill.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hey! Helio Gracie mastered the art of style-bashing, trash-talking, and outright slander back in the 1930s. You karate guys are a bunch of imitators.

Unfortunately the skills of slanderous trash-talking style-bashing are being neglected in many academies these days. At this rate these vital skills may be lost in another generation. I'm thinking of selling an instructional video for students who haven't had the opportunity to learn the techniques that Helio considered vital. As an added bonus, I will include methods for running down other BJJ practitioners who teach or train at competing academies.

There's a lot of things here that I'd love to comment on, but I feel the most important is this.

Helio Gracie was a limey, no good, idea stealin', credit hogging, uncreative so-and-so. He in no way whatsoever mastered anything of the kind… he was a rank amateur at it… ha!

Musashi was ripping rival schools to bits in the Gorin no Sho... spending much of the book doing so… I mean… have you read that thing? Lots of stuff on how everyone's doing it wrong… what schools to avoid… some rather pointed comments at some of his bigger rivals…

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There's a lot of things here that I'd love to comment on, but I feel the most important is this.

Helio Gracie was a limey, no good, idea stealin', credit hogging, uncreative so-and-so. He in no way whatsoever mastered anything of the kind… he was a rank amateur at it… ha!

Musashi was ripping rival schools to bits in the Gorin no Sho... spending much of the book doing so… I mean… have you read that thing? Lots of stuff on how everyone's doing it wrong… what schools to avoid… some rather pointed comments at some of his bigger rivals…

Well ... Helio did originally claim to be the one guy in Brazil who had truly learned the ways of the samurai. I suppose that may have included the ancient arts of trash-talking.

 

[Xue Sheng]

hmm...title of thread is "Aikido and Law Enforcement"

Should be retitled Train wreck

There is so much I would like to comment on here, but seeing as no one posting seems to want to take any responsibility and admit that they may be looking at things with a blind eye I will only comment on one post here

If I may be so bold as to relate a little history lesson to you fellas. In 1970 the art of Style-bashing was born, perfected and became more popular than Fantasy Football is today. We, Karate guys, started it, it was OURS. All you late comer, band wagon jumpers stole it.

Then an awful thing happened. Tragic, really. People started to train together. Style bashing and hate were restricted to the much smaller world of charlatans. And there just weren't enough of them around to propagate our love to slander. Alas, it was sad.

Nice to see some nostalgic, born again, resurrection, even if it's only on the net! Hate on, my brothers, hate on.

Tony, from a post above - yes, I have rank in BBJ. I am a dirty white belt, have been for a long while. Damn proud of it, too.

But.....I hate dirty white belts in other arts. They suck.

I started training in the early 70s, I was just a kid then and I do not remember much style bashing at all, well none that was not meant with actual physical bashing at some point, which is probably why it did not occur much. But today, with the anonymity of the web it seems to be the "in" thing to do. Anyone can show up, no matter the skill level, say what they want collect a group of like minded posters on the topic and there ya go..... rather sad actually...as well as disappointing...

I miss the training in the 70s....and you know, it was not to bad in the 80s either...... no enjoying it so much these days....I miss cross style meet ups, they were a blast...but you can't do that today...to many web based egos and arm chair martial artists running around......

Now I await one of my 3 least liked people on MT today to comment, call me a troll, pat themselves on the back for it, and feel great about themselves since they feel they have succeeded at something, put me in my place and shown me what for......



Now if there was only someway to make this the first post of this thread, at least then it would be on topic here at page 7