Aikido and Law Enforcement

[Tez3]

Police officers aren't taught 'martial arts' or 'self defence' they are taught control and restraint techniques, now these may well be found in many different martial arts but there is no single martial art that suits policing.

 

[drop bear]

There is no place in Law Enforcement for Brazilian Jiu-jitsu.
There is no place in Law Enforcement for Aikido.

There is only a place in Law Enforcement for Defensive Tactics, the department's Use of Force Policy, the department's Use of Force Continuum and how you write your report.

What we teach and how we teach varies with departments. Probably the only thing we teach the same is the first rule of Law Enforcement - finish your tour and make it home to your family alive.

Ours was more. It is cheaper to hospitalise a guard than hospitalise a patron.

And we were trained accordingly.

 

[drop bear]

I ment if your an Aikido fighter why would you go to a clinch its not a strengh of your style. I wasnt saying anything good or bad about the clinch itself. It is however very bad for police work Im not letting anyone hang out that long near my gun.

For restraint and control you would make it a strength. It really is the only way you can make standing armlocks reliable against a guy who is fighting you.

It is very unlikely you will catch a punch out of mid air and manipulate a wrist.

The best way to protect a weapon. (I used to carry a bat ) is to be dominant in the clinch. This is the core principle of grappling. If I control the grapple I can do what I want. If he controls it then he can do what he wants.

The best way to avoid a clinch. Is to be dominant in the clinch.

You will notice I have a theme starting to happen here.

 

[Steve]

Yet here you are

When did you start training aikido or bjj, ballen? Yet, here you are. I'm addressing the specific statements in the OP that BJJ is not useful for LEO.

Had the OP stuck to aikido, there would be no problem. But he chose otherwise. I think it was an unfortunate reaction to other, also unnecessarily contentious threads.

 

[Tez3]

The best way to protect a weapon. (I used to carry a bat ) is to be dominant in the clinch. This is the core principle of grappling. If I control the grapple I can do what I want. If he controls it then he can do what he wants.

You are talking civilian, police work is different, there's pepper spray, cuffs, Taser and baton to use to defend yourself (of course some officers are armed), there's other colleagues as well. Police officers do not aim to grapple/clinch with those they are arresting, they aim to cuff them and chuck em in the back of the wagon with as little fuss as possible. We aren't talking 'street' fights here nor are we talking 'bouncer'/security guard.

 

[drop bear]

You are talking civilian, police work is different, there's pepper spray, cuffs, Taser and baton to use to defend yourself (of course some officers are armed), there's other colleagues as well. Police officers do not aim to grapple/clinch with those they are arresting, they aim to cuff them and chuck em in the back of the wagon with as little fuss as possible. We aren't talking 'street' fights here nor are we talking 'bouncer'/security guard.

Would you be able to be specific in the differences ?

 

[Dirty Dog]

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[Tony Dismukes]

I have to say, this thread seems a lot like a petty and not so subtle slam against bjj.

If there was any slam against BJJ, it was pretty darn gentle compared to some of the criticism of Aikido in other threads. I don't think it's anything any BJJ practitioner would need to get irate about.

He finally remarked that Aikido worked well "during arresting techniques, along with other arts like Aikijujutsu, Judo, and Hapkido that can also be useful. BJJ, I don't personally feel is as helpful for most law enforcement situations, it might be helpful to have at least a little understanding of it, but I cannot think of any police officer that would EVER intentionally go down to the ground unless there were no other options,

I've known LEOs who have trained in BJJ, others that have trained in Aikido, Ninpo Taijutsu, Karate, Wrestling, etc, etc. All of them seem to feel that their chosen art has been useful for them on the job. Given that most cops aren't particularly expert in any form of unarmed combat, probably any art that is trained to a high level has the chance of providing an advantage.

But otherwise you are using low percentage wristlocks against high percentage being punched in the face.

Complimentary is the key. You can't catch punches out of mid air and an arm won't isolate itself so you need a method to do this before you can really apply akido. I like clinch work and arm drags. Which give me time to get the wrist or amlock on.

I suspect the best time to apply Aikido in a law enforcement context is before anyone starts throwing punches.

The original post was about aikido being better than BJJ in a LE setting.

I took the main point of the post as being about reaffirming that Aikido is useful in a law enforcement setting. Given some recent threads being much more critical of Aikido, that doesn't seem to be inappropriate. There was one comment in passing indicating that the officer being quoted thought that BJJ was less useful (although not useless) in that setting. It didn't seem to me that the post was primarily about BJJ at all.

 

[Tez3]

If a style isn't so good for a particular purpose it isn't, simple. It doesn't however negate that styles usefulness or strengths. It is horses for courses, one doesn't use a fork when a spoon would be better after all. If BJJ isn't as good as Aikido for policing why does it matter? What is important is that police officers have and use the best resources they can for the job. It isn't important which style is supposedly best, it isn't really even important what non police officers think, it only matters that the people who do their darndest to keep you all safe are themselves as safe as possible. It really is very unattractive to see people taking offence over a perceived 'insult' and not seeing the bigger picture of officers safety.

 

[Steve]

If there was any slam against BJJ, it was pretty darn gentle compared to some of the criticism of Aikido in other threads. I don't think it's anything any BJJ practitioner would need to get irate about.

agreed that this isn't anything to get irate about. But I don't agree that judging one slam relative to others is a good way to go, as in, this one is mild compared to others. And while the title of the thread is aikido and law enforcement, the OP ranges into discussion of hapkido, judo and bjj, as well. The OP boils down to two primary assertions. First, that aikido is "effective" for law enforcement.

Second, that BJJ is of very limited use, and that the street is not a cage (snicker).

I've known LEOs who have trained in BJJ, others that have trained in Aikido, Ninpo Taijutsu, Karate, Wrestling, etc, etc. All of them seem to feel that their chosen art has been useful for them on the job. Given that most cops aren't particularly expert in any form of unarmed combat, probably any art that is trained to a high level has the chance of providing an advantage.

i would defer to the experts on this. As I've said, I can only speak to what I know, which is that there are many LEO who are very skilled in BJJ.

I took the main point of the post as being about reaffirming that Aikido is useful in a law enforcement setting. Given some recent threads being much more critical of Aikido, that doesn't seem to be inappropriate. There was one comment in passing indicating that the officer being quoted thought that BJJ was less useful (although not useless) in that setting. It didn't seem to me that the post was primarily about BJJ at all.

i think there are two points raised in the OP as I explained above. but I don't know how any part of such a short post could be considered in passing. But I'm concerned about this idea that it's okay to even the tally sheet. Given that there have been some critical threads about one style, it's okay to even the score? I don't agree. By all means, let's have a talk about how effective aikido is. Whether the post was primarily about aikido or not, it was unnecessarily also about BJJ.

Respectfully, tony, you arent disagreeing as much as you're just reframing and minimizing. It's a slam, but it's a very mild slam. It's a point, just not the primary point. And sure, given recent threads, why not?

 

[Buka]

I'd like to comment further. As I said, there's isn't room in Law Enforcement for Aikido or Brazilian Ji-jitsu. But not because they're not effective. I've taught, and used, aspects, parts, techniques and principles from both in the Defensive Tactics I taught for many years. But they are not referred to by names either in teaching or report writing. The way to go is to call anything what-so-ever to do with securing/controlling an arm as "an arm technique, restraint, hold" or whatever. If you mention, in writing, a Martial Arts term that YOU did, you're asking for serious trouble. It's a procedural and liability issue. At least in the venues I've worked and taught.

And you have to be sort of inventive when trying to get the go ahead to implement different methods of training. As was said, you can't be teaching an officer a rear naked choke. But you can teach him how to fight off a rear naked choke. And since classes are in groups, they pair off. One of them has to be doing the choking.
I rolled with all my guys. We also did every kind of stand up fighting we had at our disposal. I brought in other guys with deep fight training to teach, too. But it was always just called DT.

There are certain ways things need to be done in Law Enforcement training. DT is actually considered a necessary liability in many departments, especially by a lot of higher ups. It makes things rather difficult. And from what I've heard from my guys still on the job, it's getting worse.

 

[geezer]

....t's a slam, but it's a very mild slam. It's a point, just not the primary point. And sure, given recent threads, why not?

I didn't really take it as a slam. More of a broad generalization reflecting an honest opinion. If someone stated that my core art of Ving Tsun was not as generally useful in policework as arts that focus on control and submission over striking, I'd flat out agree. That's not a slam, rather it's like Tez observed, "different horses for different courses."

BTW my step sister's "significant-other" is a state DPS officer with considerable MMA and BJJ experience, and he instructs empty-handed skills in his department. He has pointed out to me specific situations in which BJJ skills are very useful in policework. I didn't read anything in the OP that would contradict that.

 

[Buka]

That's, me, my Section Head and two Lieutenants in 1991. I brought in a BJJ guy to help redesign our DT program. They didn't know who he was other than my teacher. They loved it, they okay-ed it (after going through the legal department) and it worked out well. We just didn't use any terms other than "takedown, control, joint lock etc"

 

[drop bear]

I suspect the best time to apply Aikido in a law enforcement context is before anyone starts throwing punches.

Only sort of. You just don't know if someone will flip out when you grab them. So you are avoiding punches before they are throwing them if you can.

 

[Tez3]

You just don't know if someone will flip out when you grab them.

Perhaps as a bouncer you grab people but police officers prefer not to, not every arrest or stop is violent, approached the right way most people are actually more amenable than you'd imagine, it comes down to being trained properly how to approach people and not just charge in like a second rate punch drunk bouncer in a cheap brothel.
Police training is long and covers a lot of aspects, it spends a lot of time on how to approach people, how to speak to them and how to arrest properly, as a result there aren't as many incidents as there could be. It also ensures convictions stand and aren't screwed up by improper arrests and charging.

 

[ballen0351]

When did you start training aikido or bjj, ballen? Yet, here you are. I'm addressing the specific statements in the OP that BJJ is not useful for LEO.

Had the OP stuck to aikido, there would be no problem. But he chose otherwise. I think it was an unfortunate reaction to other, also unnecessarily contentious threads.

actually I have been training exclusively in BJJ for about a year it fits my schedule better. 2nd I have in the past training Aikido. 3rd I am a police officer soooooo your opinion is invalid. I just hope from now on I,see the same level of outrage from you in other arts when the BJJ thugs show up.

 

[ballen0351]

agreed that this isn't anything to get irate about. But I don't agree that judging one slam relative to others is a good way to go, as in, this one is mild compared to others. And while the title of the thread is aikido and law enforcement, the OP ranges into discussion of hapkido, judo and bjj, as well. The OP boils down to two primary assertions. First, that aikido is "effective" for law enforcement.

Second, that BJJ is of very limited use, and that the street is not a cage (snicker).
i would defer to the experts on this. As I've said, I can only speak to what I know, which is that there are many LEO who are very skilled in BJJ.
i think there are two points raised in the OP as I explained above. but I don't know how any part of such a short post could be considered in passing. But I'm concerned about this idea that it's okay to even the tally sheet. Given that there have been some critical threads about one style, it's okay to even the score? I don't agree. By all means, let's have a talk about how effective aikido is. Whether the post was primarily about aikido or not, it was unnecessarily also about BJJ.

Respectfully, tony, you arent disagreeing as much as you're just reframing and minimizing. It's a slam, but it's a very mild slam. It's a point, just not the primary point. And sure, given recent threads, why not?

 

[drop bear]

Perhaps as a bouncer you grab people but police officers prefer not to, not every arrest or stop is violent, approached the right way most people are actually more amenable than you'd imagine, it comes down to being trained properly how to approach people and not just charge in like a second rate punch drunk bouncer in a cheap brothel.
Police training is long and covers a lot of aspects, it spends a lot of time on how to approach people, how to speak to them and how to arrest properly, as a result there aren't as many incidents as there could be. It also ensures convictions stand and aren't screwed up by improper arrests and charging.

I am pretty sure this thread is about grabbing people. If you want to do a thread about not grabbing people. You are welcome to do so.

Otherwise I have asked for specific differences in police use of force and what I would use and did not receive an anser. So I will just assume their isn't one.

 

[ballen0351]

For restraint and control you would make it a strength. It really is the only way you can make standing armlocks reliable against a guy who is fighting you.

It is very unlikely you will catch a punch out of mid air and manipulate a wrist.

The best way to protect a weapon. (I used to carry a bat ) is to be dominant in the clinch. This is the core principle of grappling. If I control the grapple I can do what I want. If he controls it then he can do what he wants.

The best way to avoid a clinch. Is to be dominant in the clinch.

You will notice I have a theme starting to happen here.

except if someone is actively resisting I'm not trying to arm bar him. I have too many other tools at my disposal first. Taser, OC spray, strikes, baton, more police, whatever it takes to end it fast. Im not getting into a grappling contest with anyone. My job isn't to fight you it's to end a fight as fast as possible. Once I have you under control then arm bar or wrist lock to keep control is appropriate.

 

[Steve]

actually I have been training exclusively in BJJ for about a year it fits my schedule better. 2nd I have in the past training Aikido. 3rd I am a police officer soooooo your opinion is invalid. I just hope from now on I,see the same level of outrage from you in other arts when the BJJ thugs show up.

I expressed my frustration in the Roy dean aikido bjj thread, as well. The general tone of the discussion in that thread was bad, too. BJJ Teacher Roy Dean on Aikido.... | Page 2 | MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

A year of bjj, that's really cool. I hope you found a good school and are enjoying yourself. But, do you really think that you're learning very little that will be useful to you in your job? How often are you able to train?