Aikido and Law Enforcement

[ballen0351]

I can't speak to aikido, as I don't train in it.

Yet here you are

 

[ballen0351]

Tit for tat, or taking medicine as you say, isn't a great foundation for a discussion. Exactly my point. I appreciate your honesty.

The mods and "Mentors" seem ok with it when BJJ is doing the bullying but 1 small paragraph out of the 1st four posts got you squealing like a pig lol

 

[ballen0351]

. A BJJ guy can really do the same thing to control someone but they're prepared to defend themselves in a wider range of situations (i.e. Grappling range from standing to the takedown to the ground).

So can someone training in Aikido......Here come the BJJ mafia

 

[kuniggety]

So can someone training in Aikido......Here come the BJJ mafia

I'm not part of the "BJJ mafia". I said I've even studied aikido. It's just that it doesn't take more than 5 minutes looking at the curriculum of the two arts to see that aikido is more of a specialized art than BJJ. It's great at what it is. But aikido in a clinch fight or ground fight? I don't think so.

 

[ballen0351]

. But aikido in a clinch fight or ground fight? I don't think so.

Why would you want to in the first place?

 

[kuniggety]

Why would you want to in the first place?

The original post was about aikido being better than BJJ in a LE setting. For learning a couple of techniques to subdue a resisting person, aikido probably is the first pic. What happens as soon as that person tackles you, trips you, pulls you into a headlock, etc etc? When you're intentionally engaging a person and trying to subdue them, you often don't really have a choice in the matter for it to turn into either a clinch or ground fight. That's my point and why I think it doesn't make any sense to dismiss BJJ (or substitute any other submission grappling system... Sambo, judo, catch wrestling, etc).

 

[drop bear]

Why would you want to in the first place?

OK. The theory is position before submission. So to gain time and leverage to get what is a standing submission. You want to fight from a dominant position.

The clinch is one way of achieving this.

If you have a good clinch gain your ability to apply standing armlocks increases.

OK. So ignore the transition into throws and look just at the arm position that is being created. These entries from good clinch work set up the arm control. And this can be done on a trained guy really fighting you off.

 

[ballen0351]

The original post was about aikido being better than BJJ in a LE setting.

No it wasn't the topic had nothing to do with BJJ

For learning a couple of techniques to subdue a resisting person, aikido probably is the first pic. What happens as soon as that person tackles you, trips you, pulls you into a headlock, etc etc?

So in your limited Aikido training you know they have zero defense for this?

When you're intentionally engaging a person and trying to subdue them, you often don't really have a choice in the matter for it to turn into either a clinch or ground fight.

You absolutely do have the choice most if the time. Ive been a cop for 15 years and a DT instructor I very rarely get into a clinch In fact I cant remember the last time I was in a clinch or on the ground

That's my point and why I think it doesn't make any sense to dismiss BJJ (or substitute any other submission grappling system... Sambo, judo, catch wrestling, etc).

He didnt dismiss anything but In my opinion given the choice of styles BJJ wouldnt my first choice

 

[ballen0351]

OK. The theory is position before submission. So to gain time and leverage to get what is a standing submission. You want to fight from a dominant position.

The clinch is one way of achieving this.

If you have a good clinch gain your ability to apply standing armlocks increases.

OK. So ignore the transition into throws and look just at the arm position that is being created. These entries from good clinch work set up the arm control. And this can be done on a trained guy really fighting you off.

I ment if your an Aikido fighter why would you go to a clinch its not a strengh of your style. I wasnt saying anything good or bad about the clinch itself. It is however very bad for police work Im not letting anyone hang out that long near my gun.

 

[kuniggety]

No it wasn't the topic had nothing to do with BJJ

He finally remarked that Aikido worked well "during arresting techniques, along with other arts like Aikijujutsu, Judo, and Hapkido that can also be useful. BJJ, I don't personally feel is as helpful for most law enforcement situations, it might be helpful to have at least a little understanding of it, but I cannot think of any police officer that would EVER intentionally go down to the ground unless there were no other options, this isn't a cage (snickers).."

Okay man.

So in your limited Aikido training you know they have zero defense for this?

It was long enough to have a copy of the official aikikai curriculum and I have a handful of books on aikido.

You absolutely do have the choice most if the time. Ive been a cop for 15 years and a DT instructor I very rarely get into a clinch In fact I cant remember the last time I was in a clinch or on the ground

It's good to know that you're so good that no one can ever get the first move on you. Not everyone is so awesome.

He didnt dismiss anything but In my opinion given the choice of styles BJJ wouldnt my first choice

He did, in fact, dismiss BJJ.

 

[ballen0351]

Okay man.

1 small paragraph and it was mentioned in passing.. It will be ok your world wont end if we have a few threads not about the majesty of BJJ

It was long enough to have a copy of the official aikikai curriculum and I have a handful of books on aikido.

So your practically an expert huh

It's good to know that you're so good that no one can ever get the first move on you. Not everyone is so awesome.

Well not just me.... since I was a DT instructor I reviewed all use of force reports in my department. Cops getting taken down was pretty rare.

He did, in fact, dismiss BJJ.

LOL you will fit in fine around here

 

[kuniggety]

1 small paragraph and it was mentioned in passing.. It will be ok your world wont end if we have a few threads not about the majesty of BJJ

It's just a true/false thing. Nothing subjective about it.

So your practically an expert huh

I don't pretend to be an expert, only that I'm literate. Some particular instructor can teach some extra stuff but it's not part of the aikido curriculum. Are you trying to say there's some secret scroll/techniques only available to Dan level practitioners in aikido?

Well not just me.... since I was a DT instructor I reviewed all use of force reports in my department. Cops getting taken down was pretty rare.

Okay. I agreed that some basic wrist lock techniques would be a good fit to teach. It could be chin na and not aikido. I think it's silly to not prepare for the worst case scenario. I thought that I could hold my own in a fist fight until the first time I walked into a BJJ class and realized I didn't know my head from my *** as soon as they got the clinch or took me down to the ground. I'll say it again - I'm not espousing BJJ. Catch wrestling, judo, sambo, etc can be substituted right in there.

 

[ballen0351]

It's just a true/false thing. Nothing subjective about it.

yes and even the OP said he wasnt picking on poor little BJJ.

I don't pretend to be an expert, only that I'm literate. Some particular instructor can teach some extra stuff but it's not part of the aikido curriculum. Are you trying to say there's some secret scroll/techniques only available to Dan level practitioners in aikido?

No Im saying its stupid to think you know everything in a system because you read a book

Okay. I agreed that some basic wrist lock techniques would be a good fit to teach. It could be chin na and not aikido. I think it's silly to not prepare for the worst case scenario. I thought that I could hold my own in a fist fight until the first time I walked into a BJJ class and realized I didn't know my head from my *** as soon as they got the clinch or took me down to the ground. I'll say it again - I'm not espousing BJJ. Catch wrestling, judo, sambo, etc can be substituted right in there.

All thoes are fine so is Aikido.In my opinion Judo is the best single system for Law enforcement however there is no Perfect system so taking things from several systems is better for Law Enforcement. BJJ being towards the bottom mainly because we cant use chokes and pulling off some techniques with a full gun belt and vest isnt easy.

 

[Hanzou]

...Here come the BJJ mafia

 

[Buka]

There is no place in Law Enforcement for Brazilian Jiu-jitsu.
There is no place in Law Enforcement for Aikido.

There is only a place in Law Enforcement for Defensive Tactics, the department's Use of Force Policy, the department's Use of Force Continuum and how you write your report.

What we teach and how we teach varies with departments. Probably the only thing we teach the same is the first rule of Law Enforcement - finish your tour and make it home to your family alive.

 

[ballen0351]

- finish your tour and make it home to your family alive.

Some places dont even want you teaching that anymore

 

[Buka]

Some places dont even want you teaching that anymore

I know. Ain't it nuts?

 

[Tez3]

What police officers need in the way of martial arts is different from what most martial artists need, often police officers are looking to take down someone to be able to safely control them. A police officer's view is wider than a civilians, there is more to think about than just 'surviving', you think about the safety of your colleagues, the public and the person you are arresting, there is a duty of care to all of them that is not there for a civilian who is defending themselves. A greater onus is placed on police officers even in dangerous situations that again is not there for civilians so the methods they use have to be as fool proof as they can make them. Just training a martial art isn't enough, you can learn a takedown from a number of styles but you have to learn a takedown with a specific purpose when arresting for example. Often in the UK on the television you will see that it takes as many as six officers to restrain someone, this isn't because any martial art is useless or that the officers aren't trained in control and restraint that a civilian can do, it's because like prison officers, nurses in mental hospitals etc the police have to control but not harm. Yes one officer can just punch out the offender, they could drop them MMA style etc etc but the law doesn't allow for that. The law and duty of care says that we have to have a safe restraining technique, ie one officer holding the head, one or two the legs another the arms, it looks unnecessary compared to an MMA fight for example but it is done for everyone's safety.
Policing isn't street fights, it's not an MMA competition or a boxing bout, it's a specialised profession where what is taught is taught for a reason not for fashion. Unless you are or have been a police officer it's often hard to grasp the concepts behind what they do.

 

[Spinedoc]

Okay…clarification. There was no "bash" of BJJ. My friend merely opined that for law enforcement work, BJJ is not as well suited as standing arts, as he didn't think there was ever a reason in a law enforcement situation to try and go to the ground. His words were "that's usually a really bad idea". That being said, he also said that most LE agents should learn a little BJJ as things don't always go as planned. He thought that Aikido, Judo, and Krav Maga were most suited to LE work. He said that many agencies tended to prefer Aikido as there is not intent to harm the attacker. Administrators look for ways to reduce legal exposure of agents/officers, and Aikido helps them do that.

#1 at no point did we even talk about the effectiveness of Aikido in all street and self defense applications. We merely discussed it's uses in law enforcement…that was it.

#2 He also said that the Aikido techniques that LE uses are taught as part of courses, both DT, as well as seminars teaching "arrest control"….he mentioned someone named Koga as had attended several of his seminars, and that by NO means did it make someone a "master" of Aikido.

#3 He thought LE officers should learn more MA techniques overall, and should try to blend various systems. He did remark that officers/agents spent "most of their time on the range firing a gun that they will rarely ever use in the line of duty, but very little time at all on physical control and submission techniques that they will use almost daily"….

I didn't post this to BASH BJJ…I posted this to get others opinions and to start a discussion about the effectiveness of Aikido in Law Enforcement.

That was it.

 

[Steve]

There is no place in Law Enforcement for Brazilian Jiu-jitsu.
There is no place in Law Enforcement for Aikido.

There is only a place in Law Enforcement for Defensive Tactics, the department's Use of Force Policy, the department's Use of Force Continuum and how you write your report.

What we teach and how we teach varies with departments. Probably the only thing we teach the same is the first rule of Law Enforcement - finish your tour and make it home to your family alive.

Wise words. I'm sure that there are LEO out there who train in any number of martial arts styles. As I said before, I have no idea how many, but I can attest that many of the people I know who train in bJJ are LEO. They must see some value in their training.